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Mr.O-Nitrate
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Tri-Nitrocellulose
Hey, I am new here. And i needed your guys input. I will soon make Tri-Nitrocellulose. I am going to mix 3 ml of HNO3 and H2SO4. And a little over .5
grams cotton. I was wondering if that amount would need a gas mask? I will be doing this outside and possibly with a fan to direct fumes away from
myself. Thanks a lot  (oh yeah and the nitric acid is 60%) and for the
sulfuric its around 90%
[Edited on 16-10-2003 by Mr.O-Nitrate]
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vulture
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You are referring to cellulosehexanitrate. Nitro is not the correct name and it also implies that you are not familiar with the substance you are
going to make.
Please search this board and get your theory/precautions right before attempting the "synthesis".
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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Nevermore
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i don't think is gonna work in that way...
better you check your doses and care to follow a correct procedure..
if everything goes fine you won't need a gas mask, if runaway occurr you will need a gas mask and a new tshirt, unless you promptly dump
everything in cold water.
Nevermore!
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Mr.O-Nitrate
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Tri-Di-Hex
Tri-3 Di-2 Hex-6
Arn't there 3 diff. types of nitrocellulose? or am i just a dumbass? My book shows it as 3 Nitrate groups(ONO2) I am very confused now. I will
talk to my grandpa about this, he has a lot of knowledge in chemistry. 
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Mr.O-Nitrate
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ok ok ok, heavily confused...
Can someone please supply me with their successful synth. to Nitocellulose? I have looked at the other topics in here and checked sites, they are all
diff.
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rooster
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There is no such thing as hexanitrocellulose. As the cellulose polymer only has three -OH alcohol groups, it is only possible with a trinitrate.
Although it is a ring structure with 6 carbons, it would bot be a polymer anymore if a nitro group was attached to all carbons!
For the cellulose structure, look at the top of this page (sorry I couldn't find a better structure)
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/hycel.html
DiNitroCellulose is commonly known as colyoxylin, and TriNitroCellulose is known as pyroxylin. I think colyoxylin is the one used in ping-pong balls.
What I don't understand though, is why many nobody uses 99% HNO3 and H2SO4 for NC? I have only seen procedures with 70% nitric. When I nitrated
cellulose with 99% acids, my products were fine, better than with 70%.
More prone to oxidation?
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vulture
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It's NOT a nitro compound, but a nitrate, which is a big difference.
If you look at a cellulose monomer, it's a trinitrate. But the nitrated form of cellulose is a polymer. The lower nitrated version have been used
as plastic.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=795
For the structure and more data about cellulosenitrate. Please search, I found this thread in 20s.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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AngelEyes
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For Information purposes only, quoted from a friend:
"I personally use a ratio of 1:3 nitric:sulphuric (the sulphuric is 95%+ drain cleaner) and then simply submerge in that nitrating mix as much
cotton as it will take. I then leave this for several days at room temperature, although I cover the top of the vessel and keep it out of direct
sunlight, before washing it several times in bottles water and then leaving in a weak solution of sodium carbonate for several more days, or until
there is no more fizzing. Dry this at room temeperature for 24 hours or so (depending on humidity) and then it's good to go. Most of my product
will dissolve in acetone OK, though I generally don't bother with this as the colloided product doesn't seem as useful as the
'raw' cellulose nitrate. I just use 0.5g (yes, just half a gram) in a paper tube with a clay bung - mostly for airsoft 'grenades'.
0.5g will give a nice report and will easily fit in a tube just an inch or two in length with an ID of no more than 2cm."
Your 60% nitric contains a lot of water so you may need to up the sulphuric level to better absorb this.
Vulture is dead right though - there's more info on NC than you can shake a stick at lurking around the web. Just be specific with your terms,
use a decent search engine and don't just stop at page 1 of the results.
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Mr.O-Nitrate
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Thanks guys
Thanks for the links and the snyth. evreyone Oh and this site www.powerlabs.org has a snyth. for Cellulose Hexanitrate. (that one is for
rooster)
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Nevermore
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i wish to say something about that.
for what i read it looks like you are very young, one of the big defect of younger is lacking of patience, when you are dealing with such matherials,
acids, compounds, you should never hurry, or put things together just to make something, or handle wrongly.
One error could mean not death, but probably blindness and deafness..
Nevermore!
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IgnorantlyIntelligent
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I had always thought that you could simply put some cotton into a beaker of nitric acid (70%-90%),
wait about 15 min. then remove it and wash it in water, then with a sodium bicarbonate/water solution, then with water again. Let dry, and its ready
for use.
Maybe I'm a complete dumbass though.
\"People fear from ignorance what they do not have the intelligence to understand\"
\"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation.\"
\"A fool would rather not question, a soldier is taught not to question, a slave dares not question.\"
\"To fight for nothing is to love nothing, to die for something is to have lived for something.\"
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rooster
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Vulture, I can't find any info on the structure of hexanitrocellulose, powerlabs only has the formula for trinitro. I don't get this, sorry.
Don't you count the nitro groups on the monomer(or one "part" of the cellulose molecule)? I DO mean the monomer IN the polymer if you
know what I mean. Hard to explain.
Do you mean it is a salt(three -ONO2 and three NO3- instead of the hydrogens or somethig? Can't be.
Anyways, you must be thinking different than me, because as I see it, the ring with six carbons, CAN have six nitro-groups, but it still needs two for
the polymer bondings.
Sorry for the inconvenience. Hope I'll understand the problem...
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Mr.O-Nitrate
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right
Nevermore, your right. I am young and kind of inpatient. I have tryed to make cellulose nitrate, and it did not work out. I my H2SO4 was not pure
enough. When it comes to working with explosives and hands on with chemicals I do not rush. And I respect them
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Mr.O-Nitrate
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age
I am 15, how about you guys?
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Nevermore
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your H2SO4 is not likely to be the cause, usually the drain opener is 96-98% H2SO4, is more likely your nitric is not good as is written on the
bottle.
Anyway if you wanna concentrate your sulfuric just boil it up, use a very resistant pyrex becker since is gonna boil at very high temp and also do it
outside, so that you won't drown in a sulfuric fog. Do it till the acid is heavily fuming deep thick white fumes.
Instead of nitrating cellulose, try to nitrate sugar first, is a little more easy as long as you follow the steps carefully and watch out for runaway,
and the reaction is almost immediate (15min)
Nevermore!
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vulture
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Rooster, celluloseNITRATE is an ester of nitric acid, not a NITRO compound.
This means a NO2 group will attach itself to a OH group of the molecule, replacing the H with the NO2, creating a C-O-NO2 bond. The free H combines
with the OH from the nitric acid (HNO3 --> NO2 + OH) to form water again.
This is not the exact and correct reaction mechanism, but it's good as a general outline.
If you look at a cellulose monomer, you'll see it has 3 hydroxygroups. Please look at the link to another thread which has a gif which shows the
structure.
Nitro compounds have a C-NO2 bond.
I know this is hard to grasp, I've struggled with it myself for quite some time.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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Iv4
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lots of trial and error info.
Usually a one to one nitric and sulfuric acid is used and the concentrations of sulfuric and nitric acid being the same is said to be good(cant confim
it though).
About the nitrate/nitro thing is it like methyl nitrate and nitromethane?
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vulture
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I would like to point out that that bombshock thread contains quite some misinformation and good examples of people who have no clue what they're
doing. I'm being euphemistic now...
Yes, it's the same as methylnitrate/nitromethane.
Methylnitrate is an ester of nitric acid and is produced by reacting methanol (1 hydroxylgroup) and nitric acid.
.....H
.....|
H--C--O--NO2
.....|
.....H
Note that ONLY the NO2 is from the nitric acid, the oxygen that interconnects the carbon with the nitrogen atom was present in the "mother"
molecule, methanol.
Nitromethane is made by reacting methane with nitric acid.
.....H
.....|
H--C--NO2
.....|
.....H
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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Marvin
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That is mostly right vulture.
Nitrocellulose is a perfectly acceptable synonym for cellulose nitrate though, in the same way we call glyceroltrinitrate nitroglycerin. Technically
anything with -NO2 in could be called a nitro compound, its not restricted to C-NO2 only.
The difference between nitromethane and methyl nitrate is obvios, however the same is not true generally. You can have nitric acid esters, most
frequently called nitrates, C-NO2 compounds, most frequently called nitro compounds, N-NO2 most frequently called nitro compounds and salts of NO3-
most frequently called nitrates. In general, to be absolutly clear there are C-Nitro, O-Nitro and N-Nitro compounds. So nitrourea is actually
N-nitrourea and nitromethane is actually C-nitromethane. Carrying this furthur would get you C-nitromethanol and O-nitromethanol as equally valid
names one would be a nitro compound as youve explained the other would be an ester.
Where there is no danger of assuming the most common form though, I dont see a problem. Nitrocellulose is in the books, so it may as well be used and
the logic is more obvios than 'cellulosehexanitrate'.
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Mr.O-Nitrate
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Ha !
I thought so! I was thinking that anything with NO2 would be a nitro. The NO2 bonds to the O in nitocellulose. Same with NG. Some are connected to the
carbon and some are connected to nitrogen. But i was thinking they would all be nitro because of the NO2. My book talks about that. Oh i just got 3
chem books for 3$ at this library sale
---------------------------------------------------
I did not want to start a new thread for this question.
I have acid resistant gloves, safety goggles(bought them off sciencelab.com), and I will be doing my Nitrocellulose synth. outside. The batch of
nitrating mixture is about 4 mL. How big of a wif does it take to get sick? I know its 2 ppm, but is that a small whiff or a pretty big whiff?( oh and
will i be needing an ice bath?)
----------------------------------------------------
I dont think my Drain opener H2SO4 was too pure, because it would not hiss when contacted with water.
----------------------------------------------------
EDIT by vulture: I've combined your 3 posts to one, PLEASE EDIT your posts instead of posting them directly underneath eachother.
[Edited on 19-10-2003 by vulture]
[Edited on 19-10-2003 by vulture]---oohh sorry
[Edited on 19-10-2003 by Mr.O-Nitrate]
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KABOOOM(pyrojustforfun)
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when explaining the structure of polysaccharides you usually need to show multi mono/di.. saccharide unites. in case of cellulose the monomere is a
disaccharide called cellobiose. a comparsion between cellolose and amylose(a kind of starch) makes it clear:
cellulose:
<img src="http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/rnb/pjff/cellulose_PJFF.gif"><br>
amylose:<br><img src="http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/rnb/pjff/amylose_PJFF.gif"><br>
trinitrocellulose is meant to be cellulose hexanitrate<br>
btw recently terms such as nitrato and nitroxy are being used for organic nitrates.
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Iv4
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I know its' proibaby one of the gayest threads there(I say probably because I dont visit the crime secion much)but still it covrs nearly every
possible problem and trivial things like that.
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rooster
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KABOOOM: That was what I tried to put words on, the monomer/dimer thing. Now I get it all!
I have taken quite big gasps of NO2, and never become sick of it. Of course, your throat will be sore, but you will not die as long as you get fresh
air immedeatly after. Try not to breathe it though!
I would use an ice bath, though you may not need it for those amounts. at least a cold water bath.
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Mr.O-Nitrate
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thanks
thanks. I will have pleanty of fresh air  Well im almost ready for doing that
synth.
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rooster
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YESSS! Finally I found microcrystalline cellulose at a lab. It is like powder. When you nitrate it for use as a HE, it is hard to compress the
nitrated "cotton wool" type. Also it will be easier to handle.
One question...
Why isn't there any nitrating procedures for NC with 99% HNO3 and H2SO4? I heard 70% HNO3 is more oxidizing than 99%, if so, wouldn't there
be less oxydated, unwanted byproducts of cellulose when nitrate with higher % acids?
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