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Etaoin Shrdlu
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I will be watching with great interest, hope things go forward.
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blogfast25
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Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu  | | Frankly I don't know how you or anyone else expects to test this idea without running into that argument, for semi-legitimate reasons. In the brief
time I've spent researching this idea, I've already lost count of the different methods I've seen. Most of them are probably bunk. (The one about
throwing high-proof alcohol into the thumper beforehand is obviously effective and just as obviously useless. |
Then we must simply ditch the idea of empiricism altogether.
Each time the 'opposition' doesn't like experimental results they can then ditch them as 'not proper'.
I can't see how you can't see this.
The experiment we have in mind is so simple and elegant that any honest opposition could replicate it easily.
If our findings contradict what me and Fulmen believe then these results will be most welcome and a great surprise to me. Live, learn and move on.
And yes, me and Fulmen have explained why this can't work. You just don't like our explanation, without of course offering anything in return (that's
your right).
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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deltaH
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Reflux and reflux ratio are two different things. Reflux is the liquid coming down, it can have it's origin from the condenser, in which case you need
to operate with a certain reflux ratio OR you can feed a liquid stream to the top of a column to act as 'reflux', it just needs liquid trickling down.
It works best when this liquid trickling down is at the highest concentration, but it can also work partially when this is feed and this is why I
think a thumper manages to raise the concentration some more (but not as much as a normal second stage or second distillation would).
I see it as a lazy way to get some improvement without the effort of distilling twice or setting up multiple stages with reflux from part of the
condenser product.
Fulmen, you are correct, it does reduce recovery, never claimed it wouldn't, I merely showed that it does increase conc. according to
my model.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by deltaH]
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Zombie
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If you have to break down the definition "Reflux is the interaction between vapor, and liquid that strips vapor, of the more volatile compound from
the liquid.
I promise you ONE thing.
When the light bulb moment occurs, and it will, you're going to realize just how simple this process is.
It took me a month of looking at a sieve plate to finally understand how they could ever work in a stacked column.
It's not as complex as you now believe. .
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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deltaH
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Guys, please, I really am not trying to take sides, I simply constructed a model that I believed approximated the issue at play here, but in a steady
state equivalent. This is not my invention, I have no emotional attachment to it one way or the other, whatsoever, in fact, I don't even like
distillation that much, simply trying to help with some calculated numbers 
Remember a model is just a model, it is meant to approximate reality, but it could also be completely wrong. Experimental evidence is always king.
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Fulmen
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DeltaH: Your "reflux" isn't reflux, it's feed. Feed can be introduced anywhere between boiler and condenser, the optimum injection point is determined
by it's composition and q-value. Reflux should be interpreted as a stream (flux) returning to it's origin.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/flux: 6: the rate of transfer of fluid, particles, or energy across a given surface
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reflux: to cause to flow back or return; especially : to heat such that the vapors formed condense and
return to be heated again
I'm not picking a fight with you, using simulations was a good idea. But simulations are quite tricky, if you don't get your conditions right you
won't get any sensible data out of it. Please look at my revision and see if that matches Zombies description.
Zombie: Reality is going to hit you like a ton of bricks. I'm sorry, but there is no nice way of saying this.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
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deltaH
Dangerous source of unreferenced speculation
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BTW, I don't see the point of a thumper though, because you can drink less at higher conc. or drink more at lower conc. with the one stage only, still
similar drunkenness achieved, no? Maybe even a little less with the thumper because there is always efficiency.
The only real winner is employing two stages proper because then you can get both higher conc. AND recovery and so more net drunk?
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | As regards our experiments simulating thumpers, it will proceed in three phases.
Firstly, the general experimental set up will be revealed.
Secondly, Zomb will have his chance to advise on operating conditions.
Thirdly, my colleague will carry out the experiments with measurements of EtOH content during each run and will publish these results here.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
This is very generous of you. Both you and your colleague.
This has also been a very interesting, and unusual day.
I cancelled two jobs to stick with this thread.
Whatever the results show, thank you.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | Reflux and reflux ratio are two different things. Reflux is the liquid coming down, it can have it's origin from the condenser, in which case you need
to operate with a certain reflux ratio OR you can feed a liquid stream to the top of a column to act as 'reflux', it just needs liquid trickling down.
It works best when this liquid trickling down is at the highest concentration, but it can also work partially when this is feed and this is why I
think a thumper manages to raise the concentration some more (but not as much as a normal second stage or second distillation would).
I see it as a lazy way to get some improvement without the effort of distilling twice or setting up multiple stages with reflux from part of the
condenser product.
Fulmen, you are correct, it does reduce recovery, never claimed it wouldn't, I merely showed that it does increase conc. according to
my model.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by deltaH] |
Delta, You nailed it on the head when you said , the lazy way of increasing...
We are talking about uneducated mountain folk that came up with the concept. Not to shabby fer no skoolin"
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | BTW, I don't see the point of a thumper though, because you can drink less at higher conc. or drink more at lower conc. with the one stage only, still
similar drunkenness achieved, no? Maybe even a little less with the thumper because there is always efficiency.
The only real winner is employing two stages proper because then you can get both higher conc. AND recovery and so more net drunk?
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More net $$$$$'s
The higher the proof, the higher the price.
These people were not, are not making hootch for granny or the liquor cabinet.
They are moonshiners, making money off of corn, and sugar.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen | | Zombie: Reality is going to hit you like a ton of bricks. I'm sorry, but there is no nice way of saying this. |
I doubt it. Never ever having substantiated his theory with any measurements the belief is very strong. It would move mountains if that was possible.
As perhaps a rather weak argument I've seen some distillers and their thumpers at work and the idea that this thing could significantly increase EtOH
content is too risible too entertain.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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deltaH
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Fulmen, really not hung up about what to call it, you are correct, it is feed. Just saying that instead of the usual reflux from a
condenser, you can use feed as downcomer liquid and nothing from the condenser. I've modeled it as I've understood the problem to be. The files are
provided so you guys can chop and change it as you wish. You are right, depending on what you set up your model to be, you can prove anything.
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Magpie
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Wow, 7 pages of posts! I went on a field trip this morning and just got back.
999,999 moonshiners can't be wrong! 
But if they would have been really clever they would have ditched the thumper and added a packed column on top of the still as do the modern craft
distillers. My local craft distiller has a 3 plate fractionator using bubble plates.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Fulmen
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Delta: I have never claimed it couldn't increase concentration, I've said so since page one. What I have tried to explain is that it can't increase
concentration "for free" as it is claimed. You either have to spend more energy reboiling the reflux or toss out part of the product. This is what my
revised sim is showing, a partial condensation split into two streams. If the bottom stream is returned to the boiler it's a complete second stage
that will produce higher concentration at the cost of more energy, if not recovery is seriously diminished.
You are correct in that feed can be introduced other places than at the boiler, in fact this is the proper approach for continuous feed distillation.
It should not be confused with reflux though, without reflux you cannot get beyond the equilibrium dictated by the feed.
[Edited on 16-2-15 by Fulmen]
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
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Zombie
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Quote: Mr. Fulmen, from your linked defination
": to heat such that the vapors formed condense and return to be heated again "
Mr. Fulmen. Please, I hope you realize I mean NO disrespect at all. I have the utmost respect for everyone that has shared their time in this.
I also am in NO way attempting to make any one look silly ('Cept me).
I only posted this to point out the definition does indeed apply.
Since both you, and Mr. BlogFast are working on this In Tandem, I am honored to help.
As mr. Blogfast pointed out, this is a very simple experiment to conduct. Scale will determine time to run, but I believe nothing else will be
effected.
Like I said. It's a privilege to work with you on this, and thank you again.
Let me know when you need my input.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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deltaH
Dangerous source of unreferenced speculation
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| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | Wow, 7 pages of posts! I went on a field trip this morning and just got back.
999,999 moonshiners can't be wrong!
But if they would have been really clever they would have ditched the thumper and added a packed column on top of the still as do the modern craft
distillers. My local craft distiller has a 3 plate fractionator using bubble plates. |
Exactly and that is the real point, it possibly works somewhat, but there are so many better ways...
That said, I CANNOT BELIEVE NOBODY commented on my "cookie thumper" clip Did
anybody even watch it? Make love, not war guys
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie | | We are talking about uneducated mountain folk that came up with the concept. Not to shabby fer no skoolin" |
This remains your big problem, of course: that none of them have ever made an honest comparison or evaluation of their thumpers. No data whatsoever.
Your claims can be made by anyone.
I've some knock off anti-elephant powder, if you like. Works a treat: no elephants in our street whatsoever. It's so good the entire neighbourhood
uses it!
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Dr.Bob
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Since oil refineries are separaing a very complex mixture, not separating a simple binary mixture, and an ethanol still is, they are two completely
different problems to solve. Refineries take cuts at numerous BPs, so as to separate many fractions from crude oil. I don't think that is point is
relevant what so ever.
I have never said that a thumper is a good idea, or efficient; simply that without examining the way it is built and runs in detail, I cannot discount
its possible utility, any more than I can claim that a certain reflux column will not work better than another without lots more information and or
real testing.
Having actually used complex distillation equipment in the past, and having seen real life distillations of chemicals including ethanol does at least
give the credibility of experience to my claims. It's not like anyone is claiming that it produces excess energy and neutrons, it is just a
variation on a reflux apparatus from what I can see.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | Wow, 7 pages of posts! I went on a field trip this morning and just got back.
999,999 moonshiners can't be wrong!
But if they would have been really clever they would have ditched the thumper and added a packed column on top of the still as do the modern craft
distillers. My local craft distiller has a 3 plate fractionator using bubble plates. |
Oh we have columns. Most of us hand build every single piece.
It's just the romance of a pot still, and the real fact is... Nothing can make a more flavorful Whiskey than a 50 year old copper still, and grain you
grew yourself.
You went on a field trip, and I've got a sore back end from sitting right here ALL night, and day.
What a deal.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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deltaH
Dangerous source of unreferenced speculation
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| Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen | Delta: I have never claimed it couldn't increase concentration, I've said so since page one. What I have tried to explain is that it can't increase
concentration "for free" as it is claimed. You either have to spend more energy reboiling the reflux or toss out part of the product. This is what my
revised sim is showing, a partial condensation split into two streams. If the bottom stream is returned to the boiler it's a complete second stage
that will produce higher concentration at the cost of more energy, if not recovery is seriously diminished.
|
Okay, then we are in agreement.
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Fulmen
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Zombie: No offense taken (although I'm about ready to visit you and beat you senseless with a book  ). I've always liked distillation, and since we just covered this in school it's fresh in my mind. I can honestly say
that this thread has forced me to think very thoroughly through everything I've learned, and I feel I've gained significant insight from this fight.
So no hard feelings, on the contrary I'd like to thank everyone involved.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
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Zombie
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Quote: Fulmen
What I have tried to explain is that it can't increase concentration "for free"
NO BACK PEDDLING!!!
I stated from the very beginning that this takes the extra input to heat both the boiler, and then the thumper to come "on line" or heat up.
The statement of FREE comes in at the point where the entire system is hot, and begins running, you are using the EXACT same power as you would
running a single pot. SO THEREFORE the boiler is running on the Magic Plus (+) that I stated in the first post.
As long as we are on the same page here.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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Where's the part that's sent back into the column, Dr.Bob?
That's reflux, Sir. Thumpers don't do that.
If columns could be shortened by using a simple thumper system with the same enrichment, plenty of different distillation set ups would use it. That's
common sense.
You do realise that some people call them 'doublers', right? Because allegedly they double the EtOH output!
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | | Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | Wow, 7 pages of posts! I went on a field trip this morning and just got back.
999,999 moonshiners can't be wrong!
But if they would have been really clever they would have ditched the thumper and added a packed column on top of the still as do the modern craft
distillers. My local craft distiller has a 3 plate fractionator using bubble plates. |
Exactly and that is the real point, it possibly works somewhat, but there are so many better ways...
That said, I CANNOT BELIEVE NOBODY commented on my "cookie thumper" clip Did
anybody even watch it? Make love, not war guys |
Too busy typing... fingers bleeding... need coffee...
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by Zombie | | We are talking about uneducated mountain folk that came up with the concept. Not to shabby fer no skoolin" |
This remains your big problem, of course: that none of them have ever made an honest comparison or evaluation of their thumpers. No data whatsoever.
Your claims can be made by anyone.
I've some knock off anti-elephant powder, if you like. Works a treat: no elephants in our street whatsoever. It's so good the entire neighbourhood
uses it! |
No actually you are incorrect.
We have ALL done side by side runs both with, and with out thumpers.
If that counts to you as an experiment, then we could have saved 9 hours.
This aint my first rodeo cowboy.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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