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Darkfire
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What a guy, way to help you fellow madscientists...
\"I love being alive and will be the best man I possibly can. I will take love wherever I find it and offer it to everyone who will take it. I
will seek knowledge from those wiser and teach those who wish to learn from me.\" Duane Allman
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ballzofsteel
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I dont know if this has been posted,
Sorry, if it has.Ill delete if need be.
It is related to what you guys are trying to do.
Click on the links for some interesting reading.
May aid in the quest for pure Cl2 also
Patent, US5,855,759
Abstract:
The present invention relates to an electrochemical cell and a process for producing a hydroxide solution, sulfuric acid and a halogen gas from a
hydrogen halide and a sulfate solution. In particular, the sulfate solution may be an alkali metal sulfate solution, such as sodium or potassium
sulfate solution, an alkaline earth metal sulfate solution or an ammonium sulfate solution. The cell and the process may use either an anhydrous or an
aqueous hydrogen halide, namely, hydrogen chloride, hydrogen fluoride, hydrogen bromide and hydrogen iodide, to a respective dry halogen gas, such as
chlorine, fluorine, bromine, or iodine, to produce hydrogen ions in order to split the alkali metal solution and form the sulfuric acid. The cell has
two membrane-electrode assemblies, where an anode is disposed in contact with one membrane, and a cathode is disposed in contact with another
membrane. The sulfate solution is fed in between the membrane-electrode assemblies.
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darkflame89
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Amazing and beautiful electrodes I can hardly wait... I am currently building a
voltaic pile of copper and aluminium. I hope to supply up to 12v of DC current, since Al and Cu have an EMF of 2v per cell.
i also can't decide whether to use vinegar or NaCl solution as electrolyte.
Ignis ubique latet, naturam amplectitur omnem.
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Saerynide
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Wow. I cant wait either Thanks a ton.
A voltaic pile? Just for fun or seriously for a power supply? 
"Microsoft reserves the right at all times to monitor communications on the Service and disclose any information Microsoft deems necessary to...
satisfy any applicable law, regulation or legal process"
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darkflame89
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Of course to power my electrlolysis, since batteries in long term are expensive.
Ignis ubique latet, naturam amplectitur omnem.
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Saerynide
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I said use a power supply! 
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satisfy any applicable law, regulation or legal process"
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Quantum
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Your going to make a pile instead of using a PSU? I can get them for the cheap
around here. Try seeing if someone is selling an old computer and buy it for 20 bucks. The older the better as long as it still is a PC.
Don't make a pile; it will cost you way more in time and money than its worth.
What if, what is isn\'t true?
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darkflame89
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Or i could use a power adaptor or something, but can't find one
Ignis ubique latet, naturam amplectitur omnem.
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darkflame89
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After thinking through the setup, i would like to ask a question: Does electrons move through the solutions or does ions move through the solution?
You see, in my setup earlier as shown in the previous pics, copper blue coloration, was seen in only one bowl, the anolyte. If ions were to move
through the solution, then most certainly, copper ions presence will be detected in the catholyte. Correct? But in the setup in the earlier pics only
in one bowl was the blue coloration seen. That means that electrons move thorugh the solution.
Then this means that magnesium ions will be left in the anolyte after electrolysis. So, the H2SO4 is not going to be pure!
Is there a flaw in in my logic process?
[Edited on 19-4-2004 by darkflame89]
Ignis ubique latet, naturam amplectitur omnem.
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The_Davster
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It is the ions that move through the solution, but only certain ions. The cations move through the porous boundry to the cathode to prevent a build
up of negative charge in the catholyte. The anions move through the porous boundry to the anode to prevent a build up of positive charge in the
anolyte.
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darkflame89
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Which certain ions, you mean more reactive cations will go first??
Ignis ubique latet, naturam amplectitur omnem.
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t_Pyro
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The ions with a greater ionic mobility migrate the fastest. Ions are elctronated/de-electronated according to their concentration and redox
potentials.
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darkflame89
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Just been think about this, there is a certain electrochemical setup that is somewhat similar to the setups used here. This setup has the advantage
that batteries do not need to used. Consider this: Dip lets say a piece of iron into a saturated MgSO4, and in another a bowl, a similar setup is used
except instead on iron, you use say, copper. Then you connect both bowls with a salt bridge and connect both metals with wire.
This setup is a battery cell arrangement that uses the EMF between the 2 metals to provide current. I have read about this, but the book hardly say
anything else except to say that electricity is produced.
But we all know that in such a setup, the iron which is more electronegative than copper becomes the negative terminal of the battery and copper
becomes the positive terminal. The iron will then dissolve to form ions(I am not sure Fe2+ or Fe3+), and at the copper side, H2 gas is given of.
Of course, acid is not produced here, its just that i am hoping that that at the negative terminal acidic salts can be formed that hydrolyses to a
certain degree to form acids. At the positive terminal, Mg(OH)2 will result as usual.
If one uses copper sulphate as the electrolyte in such a setup, can sulphuric acid be produced? Since copper will be discharged at the positive
terminal and the negative terminal(maybe aluminium) dissolves.
Ignis ubique latet, naturam amplectitur omnem.
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Geomancer
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Drifting gently off topic. (We really need a bunch of sulphuric acid production threads, including "H2SO4 by electrolysis", which was what I
was looking for.)
Someone mentioned a long time ago that sulphuric acid could somehow oxidize sulphur. How does this go, and more importantantly, are the products
electrolyticly oxidizable to H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub>?
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t_Pyro
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I think the reaction that you're talking about is:
2H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> + S -> 3SO<sub>2</sub> + 2H<sub>2</sub>O
Conc. sulfuric acid is required.
[Edited on 13-6-2004 by t_Pyro]
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darkflame89
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But does this help? I mean i have neither sulphuric acid nor sulphur at the present. I recently conducted the experiment with electrolysis using newly
aquired carbon rods. The anolyte registered a pH of 2 while the catholyte registered a pH of 9. The setup ran on a 9V battery. Also, the sulphuric
acid(if there was any) did not have any brown colorations unlike Saerynide's experiment. This led me to think that the brown coloration is due to
the presence of MnO2.
But the disappointing thing is that, apparently the amount of sulphuric acid present is too little despite having a pH of 2. When NaHCO3 was added, no
fizzing was seen, except some small bubbles produced at a slow rate.
I think that the voltage of electricity that I used is to little ( I ran the setup for 3 days!) Anyway, i will be trying the chemical method of adding
phosphuric acid to MgSO4 to try and obtain sulphuric acid
Ignis ubique latet, naturam amplectitur omnem.
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hodges
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| Quote: | Originally posted by darkflame89
But the disappointing thing is that, apparently the amount of sulphuric acid present is too little despite having a pH of 2. When NaHCO3 was added, no
fizzing was seen, except some small bubbles produced at a slow rate.
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A pH of 2 would imply 10^-2 moles of H+ ions per liter. For H2SO4, this would be 1/(2 * 100) = 0.005 molar! That's why you are not seeing much
fizzing. As a comparison, drain cleaner containing H2SO4 is somewhere around 18 molar. A pH of 2 may sound impressive, but a few drops of a strong
acid in a beaker of water can produce a pH of 2.
To get 1 mole of H2SO4, you will have to run 54 ampere-hours of current through your solution. That's assuming perfect efficiency and no mixing!
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Geomancer
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The reaction from sulphur may not help those in Singapore, but for people who can get sulphur, it may. Even trapping the SO<sub>2</sub> in
water solution and electrolysing, then combining pots and boiling (or electrolysing more) would give a somewhat viable route. Better would be if it
worked in one pot. Something to try as soon as I get some functional sulphur.
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t_Pyro
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Eficiency might be a major problem in that method, though. Two-thirds of the SO<sub>2</sub> produced comes from the conc. sulfuric acid,
so assuming all the SO<sub>2</sub> is eventually converted to sulfuric acid, to produce 1volume of "new" sulfuric acid, you need
2 volumes of conc sulfuric acid!
[Edited on 16-6-2004 by t_Pyro]
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Jome
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That method of turning sulfur into sulfuric acid sounds promising!
What if one would mix H2O2 (20-30%) with concentrated H2SO4 and then add sulfur, would the SO2 produced by the reaction you mentioned be absorbed in
the water and oxidised by the peroxide directly form more sulfuric acid?
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