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morganbw
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Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  |
Higher up I've given the example of NOT having to try and disprove the hypothesis in the case of the chemical conversion of lead to gold.
It's not necessary to conduct experiments re. the chemical conversion of lead to gold because First Principles prove beyond reasonable doubt that it
can't be done.
Equally I consider 'thumpers don't work' to have been proved from First Principles.
Having said that, if my confrere (who will remain unnamed until he fully consents) agrees to carry out the experiment then we will. I'm currently off
ill and couldn't do it if they paid me for it, sadly.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
Agree, my opinion ( which is only opinion) is that the careful control of temperature maters more than the thumper. (opinion only )
Perhaps I may have a lottery ticket to bear fruit someday and I could do more that talk and actually do some carefully controlled experiments.
Unfortunately in the world of science biased experiments can happen to easily.
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blogfast25
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Sure, but the experiment we have in mind is so simple anyone could reproduce it and verify any bias.
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Fulmen
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While experiments are always useful, there really isn't any need for it here. This is well known physics, there is nothing new to be
discovered here (at least not from this experiment). But if it helps you understand the physics, by all means go for it.
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Zombie
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Yeah... I was gonna post up a bunch of horse poop, and say SEE!!!
I can only tell you truthfully from REAL WORLD experience. a thumper when properly run (as described for an experiment) will add approx. 20% abv. to a
finished product.
The only "cost" is the time spent waiting for the thumper to come on line, and the energy used waiting for this to happen.
If the experiment is done here, and fails, it is only because it was done incorrectly, and I did explain how to run it so...
I love you guys already. The passion you all show for what you do is commendable.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen | | While experiments are always useful, there really isn't any need for it here. This is well known physics, there is nothing new to be
discovered here (at least not from this experiment). But if it helps you understand the physics, by all means go for it. |
Are you, and Blog neighbors? Room mates? Kin? 
5 pages in 12 hours... Nice topic Blog!
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie |
If the experiment is done here, and fails, it is only because it was done incorrectly, and I did explain how to run it so...
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Already that is a deeply SHAMEFUL thing to say. It's idiotic.
'You didn't get my results because you didn't do it properly'. The type of criticism already anticipated higher up.
You really are an insufferable twit. 
And still you expect me to conduct an experiment.
What people like you do on a science site is beyond me. Go take up knitting. Or at least keep your crap to yourself.
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blogfast25
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More emotive bull from the resident imbecile.
GO AWAY.
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Zombie
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No need to take any of this personal. It's just a mix of words.
Fuel for the fire to see this happen.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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Yeah, word salad is definitely your speciality.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Fulmen
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Nope, not related or neighbors. It's just that we both know what the h*ll we're talking about 
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DJF90
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It wouldn't be the first time you've been wrong, would it Gert? The reduction of potassium hydroxide by magnesium (stickied thread) rings a distict
sounding bell.
I don't know either way, and I don't have the free time to invest in this on a practical level. But in your theoretical considerations, you may be
missing factors (how about the differing heat capacities of ethanol and water and binary mixtures thereof?). Give it a fair chance without being
biased - experiment is king.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by DJF90 | It wouldn't be the first time you've been wrong, would it Gert? The reduction of potassium hydroxide by magnesium (stickied thread) rings a distict
sounding bell.
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Great logic, DJF90. I was wrong about something ergo I must be wrong about this too. Even basic logic escapes you. Smearing on the other hand
suits you down to the ground.
What, by the way was wrong with the reduction of potassium hydroxide by magnesium. Do explain, you know?
Re. experiments on thumpers, a fellow experimenter and myself will carry out this experiment. Unlike you of course...
| Quote: | | how about the differing heat capacities of ethanol and water and binary mixtures thereof |
Neither enlightens, nor explains.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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deltaH
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Die Antwoord
First, some inspiration, who better than the South African group "Die Antwoord" meaning, The Answer, and their song "Cookie Thumper"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8nrF5aXPlQ
Now for some chemical engineering, I have simulated this process using the open source process engineering software called COCO which I have rant and
raved about forever now...
http://www.cocosimulator.org/
See file attached of my simulation.
Okay, I don't know much about brewing, so like a good engineer I made some assumptions.
Firstly, I can only simulate steady state operations so I've had to come up with a setup that approximates as thumper in steady state operation.
I assumed the feed is 5 wt. % alcohol, entirely thumb sucked, I have no idea what is the usual concentration here.
I've used a NRTL equilibrium model, this is an advanced model that ought to accurately describe the non-ideal behaviour of water-ethanol, for what
it's worth.
I've assumed that the 'still' boils up 10% of the feed continuously (again thumb sucked number), this resulted in a vapour with an alcohol mole
fraction of 0.105
Then to simulate the thumper in my steady state process. I mixed this vapour stream with another feed at the same concentration and flowrate as the
original, but at 73°C.
The result surprised me I must say. After splitting the mixed stream into vapour and liquid fractions using an adiabatic flash operation, the vapour
alcohol concentration jumped to 0.177 mole fraction.
Please shout if you want changes made and I'll do my best to accommodate them.
Attachment: Thumper COFE simulation.fsd (52kB)
This file has been downloaded 679 times
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH |
The result surprised me I must say. After splitting the mixed stream into vapour and liquid fractions using an adiabatic flash operation, the vapour
alcohol concentration jumped to 0.177 mole fraction.
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How does an uninsulated pot constitute an adiabatic flash operation?
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deltaH
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No, that's just for ease of viewing, basically just splits the incoming stream, which is a mix of vapour and liquid, it's the mixer itself (before
this unit) which actually simulates the 'thumper'. The flash unit doesn't do anything but split off the portion of the stream vapour into one stream
and the portion liquid into another.
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Zombie
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What does "steady state mean?
The initial boiler, and thumper charges should be approx 10% but I guess that number can be anything.
The math the simulator did is correct in that the output will be higher due to vapor leaching more vapor thru vapor / liquid interaction.
My concern is if steady state means constant temp... Then the number for the result is lower than if the model could follow a curve in temp to follow
the shifting mole fractions in the vessels.
That is a great starting point however. Thank you for taking the time to run it.
I have KG Tower software but it will not run a simple process.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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deltaH
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Incidently, if the temperature of the feed of the thumper rised significantly above 73C, then the conc. of the alcohol drops in the final vapour, it
also drops if it's too low, I manually tried a few number to find a rough optimum.
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deltaH
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Steady state means it's running continuously and the compositions and conditions in a unit don't change with time. This is not how home batch
distillation is carried out, but it is how industrial processes run.
It's not the same thing obviously, but with some thought into designing the setup, you can get a simulation that captures what's going on and glean
some understanding, certainly can allow us to see if we can increase the concentration of alcohol by passing vapours through a pool of hot feed a
second time.
My main gripe with this approach is this temperature of the second feed, the 73C I chose. This is thumb sucked, I don't know what the temperature in a
real thumper is. If it's lower or higher, it won't work so well.
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blogfast25
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delta:
Thumper 'theory' relies on temperature of the still vapour going up. As indeed it does in batch operations.
That and everything else they can throw at it, kitchen sink included.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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deltaH
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What I am trying to say is that in a batch operation, you don't 'set' the temperature of the thumper, it sets itself by it's operating point which is
the simultaneous solution of the mass and energy balances and equilibrium of course.
Anybody ever measured the temperature in a thumper? I can then enter this number into my simulation.
***
No the temperature dropped in my simulation
***
The drop in temperature makes perfect sense because as the concentration of the alcohol goes up, the temperature must surely drop. I'm seeing this as
a type of second stage of sorts, but normally where you would use reflux liquid from the down-commer of the next stage or condenser, here hot feed
liquid serves as reflux and because it's not as concentrated as what the down-commer liquid would be, you don't get as good enrichment as you would
with a proper second stage, but you do get some enrichment.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by deltaH]
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | Steady state means it's running continuously and the compositions and conditions in a unit don't change with time. This is not how home batch
distillation is carried out, but it is how industrial processes run.
It's not the same thing obviously, but with some thought into designing the setup, you can get a simulation that captures what's going on and glean
some understanding, certainly can allow us to see if we can increase the concentration of alcohol by passing vapours through a pool of hot feed a
second time.
My main gripe with this approach is this temperature of the second feed, the 73C I chose. This is thumb sucked, I don't know what the temperature in a
real thumper is. If it's lower or higher, it won't work so well. |
I can give you that temp, and the mole fraction.
They are on a graph around page three of this thread. I'll find it.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Boffis
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I find it hard to believe that such a simple idea can cause so much trading of insults.
The process is very very simple and doesn't violate anything! DeltaH is onto the right track. Stop thinking about the "thumper" as a secondary still
but as a partial condenser. If the feed vapor is less than 95% ethanol, which it will always be in this case, any condensate that forms in the system
will contain less alcohol per unit mass than the residual vapor. Therefore the residual vapor will be slightly enriched in alcohol relative to the
"feed". No principles on conservation of energy or thermodynamics are violated because the mass of the residual vapor is less, its temperature will
probably also have fallen and so will the latent heat of vaporisation of the remaining components since the LHV of water is significantly higher than
alcohol.
In effect a "thumper" is a single-plate Coffey type rectifier; pretty much like Zombie's illustration on the very first page of this thread.
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Zombie
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Try 90.5*c @ 10% ABV
That is the boiling point at that charge. You may have to bump up the temp Slightly.
As the ABV in the boiler goes down so does the boil point in the thumper.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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deltaH
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blogfast, I think if you think of this along the lines of traditional industrial columns, it's similar to operating a two stage
column with two feeds, one to the boiler and one to the top of tray one and running a total condenser. That top feed then 'becomes' your reflux. I can
simulate that 'column' in chemsep, another free program.
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