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gsd
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Anybody who is under this impression would do well to read this cute little essay by the inimitable Bertrand Russell:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/russell3.htm
Closely read especially the last paragraph. :-)
gsd
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Sedit
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I judge the church by Letters sent from the vatican to Ireland after the abuse alegations started to surface. The church was keeping it hush hush for
decades and when it started to surface Ireland wanted answers and the response they got shown by the Wikileak cables was the Vatican refusing to speak
with Ireland because they have tarnished the Sovereignty of the church.
Any organization willing to cover up abuse of children and further more reject and demonize those who expose it is evil. This is not a couple evil men
but the foundation thru which these churches are based. They have exposed that a large portion is evil from the ground up. If this was an isolated
incident one could look past it but if you follow the timeline of the religion back to its start you will see that as the three sects broke off from
mainstream Egyption religion in profress of a single god all three have left a wake of destruction in there paths and we are currently living in an
age where one such destruction was carried out on September 11. The two religions are almost identical and to feel that christianity is above what
took place on that day one must look back at its history to see that acts much more atrocious have taken place in there name. I liken it to waiting a
couple hundred years and then worshiping the acts of the Nazis as though they are saviors.
Perhaps it does prove the religions teachings in that the closer you get to god the more you will be tested but to many of these people have failed
the test and it is something I would wish to distance myself from since I have seen first hand the cult like nature of organized religion and how it
ripped a few familys apart. If the almighty is the superviser of what is taking place then I would just as well chose to worship my own beliefs
instead of supporting corruption of this nature.
Im starting to change my tone on this subject after watching this thread play out and the direction its going. It is painfully clear that No, Science
and religion can not co-exist. Any discussion will turn into a flame war between the two partys with the impossibility of any resolution ever comming
on the table.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Rosco Bodine
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I have decreasing admiration for organized denial, deception, amorality, hostility, and willful ignorance. I have dismay for the conflicted humanity
composing the marxist and communist "societies" to which that godless lack of enlightenment leads.
If you let only governments and/or science define what is good and right for you, what are your rights, and in what you should place your confidence
....then you have your fullest reward already. Don't complain or worry, you have achieved nirvana by the light of their 10 watt bulb in a large room.
You may leave your sunscreen at home without fear of overexposure to illumination.
[Edited on 6-1-2011 by Rosco Bodine]
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hissingnoise
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Fear of the unknown will always be a potent force in the lives of most people.
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Rosco Bodine
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No fear is mine, a blessed assurance is now located where any fear used to be.
You see the Rock of Ages is something even better than the Rock of Gibraltar.
People buy life insurance, having faith that payment will be made to their survivor beneficiaries.
If people would so readily place faith and money into a bank on earth to cover
final business involving their mortal remains, then how is it so much a greater leap to also have maturity and foresight concerning the making of
advance arrangements with Jesus for the safekeeping of ones own soul ?
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | | No fear is mine, a blessed assurance is now located where any fear used to be. |
Gee Rosco, is it me, or does that really sound very quaint.
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Rosco Bodine
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My pledge of allegiance, officers oath, and Lord's prayer would also sound quaint. I take the traditional, plain and simple meaning sincerely to
heart. I actually do believe all that old time religion God and Country and Constitution , Bill of Rights kind of principled stuff literally, without
mental reservation or prevarication like is more comfortable and popular with many who think everything is a matter of "interpretation". I know what
it means to me,
doesn't require a lot of analysis by me. I have observed that analyzing it too much is generally where dishonesty enters by people who don't really
concur and would clothe naked subversion as being principled "interpretation". To me it means what it says or else it really doesn't mean anything
at all.
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hissingnoise
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Well then Rosco, I can only envy you your certitude . . .
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turd
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Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  | If people would so readily place faith and money into a bank on earth to cover
final business involving their mortal remains, then how is it so much a greater leap to also have maturity and foresight concerning the making of
advance arrangements with Jesus for the safekeeping of ones own soul ? |
And what if god hates religious people and puts their soul directly into hell? With a bank/insurance I can at least be quite sure that the money finds
my intended purpose.
Please - this thread should have been detritused a long time ago. At least put it in whimsy, this has _nothing_ to do with science.
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Rosco Bodine
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Why detritus ? Is that the deciding turn in a discussion which has merit but
has a course which is not deemed "satisfactory" in serving the aims of bias
for one view or another ? There is a matter of respect that is at the core of
this topic. Every atheist radical with an agenda of deceit tries unsuccessfully
to put science and Christianity at odds as if somehow science is the validation
for atheism, and that atheism is a license to slander the church, Christians, and God.
Is legitimate debate then to keep silent in the face of insults and lies or
to expose it for exactly what sorry politics of cynicism, deceit, and bitterness it is ?
Science and religion can indeed peacefully coexist so long as atheists do not try to claim science as their invention, brainchild, and exclusive
realm, while professing a rewritten history, redefined reality, and a false affirmation of intellectual or moral superiority to Christians.
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turd
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Because it has _nothing_ to do with "The art and science of amateur experimentalism", the site's topic. I couldn't care less what imaginary beings you
believe in as long as you post good science/experiments. I have never heard of someone being barred from doing experiments because he/she had this or
that religious belief. Actually the attitude amongst practically all (professional) scientists that I know is: We don't care what your racial,
religious or sexual preferences are as long as you work is sound.
Please move this off-topic discussion to whimsy.
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Rosco Bodine
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Your concern over topic categorization accuracy and propriety is a sensitivity remarkable in its precision and insight, so you may yet have some
promise with regards to development of a discerning intellect capable of greater appreciation for "imaginary" beings. However it could also be that
more realistically speaking,
such optimism is only a case where hope springs eternal. God only knows.
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Sedit
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| Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine |
Science and religion can indeed peacefully coexist so long as atheists do not try to claim science as their invention, brainchild, and exclusive
realm, while professing a rewritten history, redefined reality, and a false affirmation of intellectual or moral superiority to Christians.
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It just can't happen Rosco and this statement is the fundemental flaw as to why they can't. Your blaming the Atheist and im sure there blaming the
Christains. An Atheist will profess that they can peacefully coexist so long as Christains would stop declaring there books and superstitions as fact.
No matter how you look at it you will see its obvious they just can not co exist and this thread proves it.
I hate modern science and religion for both the same reason. Both partys are stubborn jackasses that refuse to listen to vauge facts. A fact does not
have to be true in order to gain wisdom from it.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Rosco Bodine
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I don't blame the atheist for much beyond what appears to me a near perfect record for cynicism and dishonesty. There hasn't been any effort on my
part to confuse "belief" with "scientific fact". I try to make a distinction between science and religion in a way that is inclusive, rather than
making baseless arguments
that the two things are invariably at odds. There absolutely are religious fanatics and there absolutely are atheist fanatics and it is the
fanaticism where
conflict arises because zeal tends to blind people to rational thinking. Science is neither atheist nor religious, any more than mathematics or
geometry.
Excessive bias that blurs and dishonestly redefines distinctions between science and religion is a negative commentary on intellect. There are
brilliant lunatics who are still intelligent even in spite of their evil genius. I get weary of the endless attack by atheists on people who believe
in God as if faith was somehow a litmus test of intelligence ....when very clearly that is absolutely not the case. Yet even here in this thread you
see the smartasses with attitude mouthing off their insults as if repetition of the lie and insult will by enough telling transform into truth what is
only their cynical opinion. The opinion of an atheist may be that a Christian is necessarily a moron who could not be a legitimate scientist, but
that opinion is incorrect, and the proof is abundant that it is an opinion of the same depth as is racism or sexism .....stupid actually.....and yet
it is an often
revisited offensiveness which obviously speaks of a personal problem owned
by the person having such a bias which is a prejudice of such intensity it is blinding.
Atheists can go ahead and believe that they are going to hijack control of the world which was built for the most part by people of faith, but that
simply isn't going to happen.
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psychokinetic
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Most of that was the best thing you've said all thread.
“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found
the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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condennnsa
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"the world which was built for the most part by people of faith"
They may have been of faith, i don't know. But it was not faith that made the people build the world, but rather greed. in my opinion
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woelen
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| Quote: Originally posted by Sedit | | Your blaming the Atheist and im sure there blaming the Christains. An Atheist will profess that they can peacefully coexist so long as Christains
would stop declaring there books and superstitions as fact. |
Your blaming the Christian and im sure there
blaming the Atheists. A Christian will profess that they can peacefully coexist so long as Atheists would stop declaring there books and superstitions
as fact.
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madscientist
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Science is a method - the use of reproducible, verifiable evidence to reach conclusions. Religion is a system of beliefs - it uses no reproducible or
verifiable evidence of any kind.
It should be obvious that science and religion are fundamentally different approaches to discovering "the truth."
Are there religious scientists? Sure. But it is also a human tendency to be inconsistent and contradictory in one's words and thoughts.
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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hissingnoise
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What I'll never understand is how intelligent people can abandon all rationality to engage in what amounts to childish wishful thinking . . .
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woelen
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| Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise | What I'll never understand is how intelligent people can abandon all rationality to engage in what amounts to childish wishful thinking . . .
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What you are referring to is a caricature of religion. Indeed, intelligent people do not engage in some ill-defined and illogical feel-good wishfull
thinking.
True religion has a well-defined worldview, which absolutely does not need to conflict with what science finds. Science is a tool for understanding
the world around us, but it is mainly geared at HOW. Religion also attempts to understand the world around us, but it is mainly geared at WHY.
Just to make an analogy with a radio receiver, which is capable of receiving signals over different channels. We have pop-music channels, classical
music channels, cultural channels, news channels and so on. You can listen to just one of these channels, but you can also decide to spread your
attention over different channels, depending on mood and situation.
Now let's extend this to ourselves. We have the channel of science, the channel of art, the channel of feelings, the channel of religion and probably
many more channels. What I observe in many scientists (I say many, but not all) is that they almost exclusively tune in on the channel of science and
that is their sole input of information in their life. Every aspect of life has to be understood and explained in terms of science. In the long run,
however, this will lead to failures.
For me, religion also is one of the channels of understanding, but music, arts and yes, science also are. All of them give understanding at different
levels and together they give me a worldview which makes life worth living.
What I see in this discussion is that many people over here associate religion only with fairy tale stories of things which by long have been
disproved. That is not a fair method of discussing things. A true religion can withstand discoveries of every kind and I believe Christianity is. What
many people do is referring to the "god of the gaps" and then they tell that the True God does not exist. They just have shown that the "god of the
gaps" does not exist. This "god of the gaps" is something which some people believe and more and more of this "god" is taken away with further
scientific discovery. But true believe in the real God does not depend on scientific discoveries. Actually, when I read about new amazing and complex
discoveries, such as new planets, new structures in DNA, the relation between species, which once shown by fossils now also is shown by DNA, then I
only can say that God is even greater than I thought before. The more we know about His creation (at the super macro level of billions of light years,
at the super micro level at subatomic particle levels and at huge time scales of billions of years) the more I see how fantastic and great this God
must be.
This awesome God, Who made the galaxies on one side and the quarks and bosons at the other side, but also made the earth with all its life forms on
it in a process of billion of years feels love for each individual person and cares about us.
How did God do all of this? He uses the laws of Nature, which he has made Himself. The laws of Nature allow all these phenomena to unfold and to
exist. As scientists we can (and should) attempt to understand the HOW of His creation by studying the laws of Nature.
But God's method of working goes beyond the laws of Nature. Just see the operation of the laws of Nature as the normal operational mode. Sometimes,
however, there is an exception. Such an exception we call a miracle, but by its very nature of it being an exception it falls outside the realms of
science. Science only can tell something about the normal mode of operation, exceptions cannot be handled by science and then we come to the point of
religion, but also arts, emotion.
[Edited on 9-1-11 by woelen]
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Rosco Bodine
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From personal experience I know Christianity is not a religion which asks or seeks that anyone leave their brain at the door and exchange intellect
for a skull filled with "blind faith". Many here seem to have an incorrect idea that is just how it works. On the contrary it is quite an opposite
process. Some of the most highly educated and intelligent persons who ever lived, many of whom are scientists, medical doctors, engineers, ect. are
also Christians. Inability to reconcile that FACT with incorrect ideas or illusions reveals a personal philosophical conflict and not any bona fide
issue with religion. Prophecy historically recorded and later fulfilled is indeed verifiable evidence, but of course there is a governing premise
operable which does involve acceptance of the veracity of the report that such things have occurred in a time long before "peer review" and
authentication by committee became scientific convention in more modern times.
What clearly is occurring is that some people would be more comfortable with the idea of having all ancient texts and records made subject to
editorial review for a scientific determination of their veracity by persons now living millenia distant from the time such writings were made. That
kind of revisionism is pure censorship and social and psychological manipulation in service not necessarily of humanity. Such revisionism is rightly
questionable in regards to whatever "scholarly or scientific" virtue may be
accorded such revisionism by those who would judge themselves worthy for their estimation of their own excellence at being scholarly and scientific
...before even examining what true virtue exists in that revisionism.
Inevitably such "experts" then make "law" whatever they "believe" defines right from wrong and how men should live their lives. What that has gotten
us in the modern world is a set of flawed and too often ridiculous "laws" inflicted in many cases as a real crime and imposition carried out by liars
and corrupt men of cruel ambition who estimate they are a notch above any other man, especially any lowly Christian.
Intelligent people do not abandon all rationality to engage in religion that is what amounts to childish wishful thinking. It is more of a humility
and honesty that acknowledges
that right from wrong is not ultimately defined by children nor is it children's duty or right to impose whatever cockeyed standard they invent on all
whom they may estimate are inhabitants of what they regard as their own sovreign realm.
It is no small distinction that to whom would be accorded the status and identity and authority as the sovreign would necessarily be different for
people of faith as compared with people who have none. Because some would prefer to believe there is no sovreign higher authority than their own
thinking and ambitions, then anything whatsoever they decide is given absolute power and regarded as the ultimate virtue realized when their own
desire is attained .....no matter how evil or monstrous their faulty and imperfect human desires may be. So the trap is very real for people who do
not believe in God to substitute themselves and whatever they think, usurping what should rightly be Gods sovreignty in their own lives while
disrespecting that de facto sovreignty over the lives of others who would declare it, as a license to act also as if the unbelieving had attained
"superiority" over and authority by assertion to lord things over those "stupid religious people".
Now where is the truth found ? That question may be
very complex and perplexing for the scholarly and scientific.
To a Christian it is a simpler matter which goes like this:
God said it, I believe it, that settles it. That profound simplification of things is generally not the first realization, but is something more
like the end product of a hundred distillations and recrystallizations. But anyone is welcome to estimate the depth of the process for such a
realization any shallow way they wish .....just don't try to climb into my head and tell me how you think that process worked.
@woelen 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfys7U-o3bI Turn Your Radio On
[Edited on 9-1-2011 by Rosco Bodine]
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | | A true religion can withstand discoveries of every kind and I believe Christianity is. |
You make your points eloquently woelen but it seems to me that every religion has, in its time, seen itself as "The One True Path to Redemption".
Religious belief seems always to evolve, and the gods of Ancient Greece were every bit as real to the Greeks as the Christian god is to Christians.
Older religions have no relevance to people today and in the distant future Christianity will almost certainly have been eclipsed by a new set of
beliefs - the only constant being the presence of atheists of which I'm just one . . .
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Rosco Bodine
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There is no religious or philosophical equivalency between religions having similar coincidental beliefs .....but possibly the coincidences are
explainable as being parts of a greater truth being earnestly sought by different men who had some part revealed to them.
Christianity is the entire religion "contract" complete. Mormons add to gospel and that is heretical. That is where a bona fide religion becomes a
cult. Mormonism is a good example of a religion susceptible to historical scrutiny so it doesn't wash, revealing what has been added by Mormons and
hitched like a third testament to Christianity. The differences there between Mormons and mainstream Christianity provides a good scholarly study
which will be informative to anyone wrestling with the matter of equivalency, authenticity, veracity.
The "gods" of ancient Greece don't hold the keys to heaven and hell,
and so far as ancient past, present, or distant future .....
being the Alpha and Omega .....Christ already has that covered,
everything that ever existed or ever will. And as for all the other
religions, there's only one road to heaven, and they aren't it,
according to what I understand and believe.
With regards to any person's unbelief ......maybe try asking God
to deliver you from that skepticism....and see what happens....
( You may want to hold on to your hat, you could be in for quite a ride )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFef5y8VVEc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeuVBc76jas
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | | There is no religious or philosophical equivalency between religions having similar coincidental beliefs .....but possibly the coincidences are
explainable as being parts of a greater truth being earnestly sought by different men who had some part revealed to them. |
Coincidental Rosco?
Come on, you know as well as I do that Christianity has as its foundations the wreckage of those religions which preceded it!
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madscientist
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Sometimes it's not just the answers that are absurd.
Why is the number 3 a prime number?
Why does the universe exist?
Why do I exist?
One can either recognize that the questions themselves are flawed and unanswerable, or attempt to resolve them with answers that cannot be proven or
disproven. As our minds are wired in a way that makes unanswered questions troubling, the latter approach is the usual road taken. "It just is" is a
difficult concept to accept.
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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