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Rosco Bodine
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@holmes1880 Precisely, the so called safety detonators use a fast hot pyrotechnic to generate a thermal shock induced detonation of the base charge.
It isn't as positively reliable as an overdriven initiation by a primary, but it will cause sensitive secondary explosives that are actually
borderline to being primary explosives to detonate. As was said by Davis in COPAE "MHN is almost but not quite a primary explosive", the same is true
for NG, ETN, and some other sensitive secondary explosives. In larger quantities, PETN will undergo DDT and so will nitrocellulose.
@aquaregia A waterbath and a polypropylene test tube
would have been a better way to go. A kinder gentler approach to materials like ETN is required.
[Edited on 9-6-2011 by Rosco Bodine]
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The WiZard is In
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Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880  | | A guy heating it with a TEA spoon has been warned few times by me and another few people, but he still did it. He actually showed what happens when
ETN gets overheated over a candle flame in a spoon- it starts pumping out NO2 brown smoke until igniting. If it detonated in a spoon he'd have no
shrapnel, but would probably be deaf for a few minutes. |
Never-ever underestimate la spoon full.
Extracted from
RED PHOSPHORUS -- BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN
By Donald J Haarmann
American Fireworks News May, 1991
Perhaps the most famous victim (excluding your
fingers-still-intact author) of this infernal
l combination is Donald Sisco, better known as
"Kurt Saxon" of "Poor Man's James Bond" fame.
The following is quoted from his book:
"The photograph shows a spatula which
had been used to stir a mixture of about
1/2 half ounce of potassium chlorate and a
bit of red phosphorus. The mixer was
ignorant of the fact that these chemicals
together, stirred dry, will detonate
spontaneously.
"The resulting blast kneaded the spatula
out of shape. It atomized the first 3/4 inch of
the bone handle and split the rest. It
shattered the plastic mixing bottle.
"The fingers holding the bottle had
the flesh blown off the bones and the bare
bones had to be amputated. The palm of
the hand was turned to hamburger and its
inner bones were smashed.
"The hand holding the spatula was
undamaged except for particles of plastic
bottle which pierced the skin."
--------
Luck he? Yes. It was only a pyrotechnic mixture
and not an explosive.
djh
---
Daedalus
Tension in miniature
The smaller a component, the stronger it
tends to be - which explains the value of
fine-fibre reinforcements. A very fine fibre
can carry so much tension as to reach
an almost explosive strain-energy density.
Daedalus is now devising a fine
powder whose particles are tense with
locked-in stress.
Stress, he remarks, can accumulate
during crystallization. A needle crystal,
growing in solution and bent while it is
still very narrow, will develop intense
stress as it thickens. Successive sleeves
of new molecules are deposited under
compression on its inner radius and under
dilation on its outer one. If it cannot
straighten, the accumulating stress will
snap it. So, says Daedalus, grow a
needle-crystal compound on a micro-scale
circular seed, and it will thicken into a
tiny ring, tense with stress. A small shock
will crack it; it will snap straight,
releasing its energy ballistically as flying
fragments.
DREADCO chemists are now trying it.
Their circular seeds are plasmids, ring-
polymer molecules, and ring-shaped
structures made by coating a micro-fine
wire, stretching it to shatter the coating
into tiny rings, and dissolving it to release
them. The chemistry is still unfocused and
exploratory, but some promising
systems should emerge soon. The final
product will look like any ordinary white
powder: flour, salt or cement. But it will
be tense with strain energy.
DREADCO's Stressed Powder, crystallized
almost to spontaneous explosion, will
be highly dangerous. its fiercely
screwed-up particles will need a thin inert
coating to prevent the mutual abrasion
of handling or pouring from setting them
off. It will form a novel physical explosive.
Fired by a sudden shock, it will release
no chemical fumes, just a violent hot
blast of abrasive fragments. A weaker
grade of Stressed Powder, removed
from the crystallizing bath earlier, will
have wider uses. It will make a splendid
active abrasive, cutting through the hardest
Workpiece by forceful local energy release.
It will transform the technology of
surface abrasion, from etching to
paint-removal to dental hygiene.
Grit-blasted at a workpiece from an
air-nozzle or sunk into it from a
flexible pipe, Stressed Powder will
penetrate like a drill. It will solve
the age-old problem of making a
deep hole, maybe curved or of
non-circular cross section, in a
hard solid. Electricians facing the
once intractable task of putting
wiring into an old stone
building will bless the name of
DREADCO.
David Jones
Nature 406 [24] August 2000
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holmes1880
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@Rosco
I believe it can be as reliable as with a primary initiated charge, otherwise they wouldn't make them commercially, I'd imagine. Here's a sample
detonator using undisclosed pyrotechnic mixture. I don't think it's thermite since the system requires very low voltage to ignite it-and thermite,
most kinds, are notoriously difficult to fire up.
http://www.dynonobel.com/NR/rdonlyres/TDS%20-%20Initiation%2...
I think ETN is the midpoint between PETN and NG/MHN/EGDN. The latter are at least 2X impact sensitive and MHN can actually go off from being squeezed
between pliers, or I was told.
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| Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine | @holmes1880 Precisely, the so called safety detonators use a fast hot pyrotechnic to generate a thermal shock induced detonation of the base charge.
It isn't as positively reliable as an overdriven initiation by a primary, but it will cause sensitive secondary explosives that are actually
borderline to being primary explosives to detonate. As was said by Davis in COPAE "MHN is almost but not quite a primary explosive", the same is true
for NG, ETN, and some other sensitive secondary explosives. In larger quantities, PETN will undergo DDT and so will nitrocellulose.
@aquaregia A waterbath and a polypropylene test tube
would have been a better way to go. A kinder gentler approach to materials like ETN is required. |
Well as I posted a few back ... DuPont patent'd an explosive
based on ErTeN.
Primary? A Sand Test result for ErTeN would be useful. Any volunteers?
Attachment: 1751436.pdf (119kB)
This file has been downloaded 909 times
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Rosco Bodine
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@holmes1880, Apples and Oranges. That type detonator uses a different principle and system from the typical safety detonator. It uses a progressive
density loading in a tuned aperture to shorten the runup distance for DDT, and these have been used with PETN alone. These type detonators require
exacting control over the particle size and progressive loading density and the geometry of the confinement which is a reenforced detonator type, and
if anything is out of precision spec they fail, so they are more difficult and complex and expensive to manufacture.
[Edited on 9-6-2011 by Rosco Bodine]
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holmes1880
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Be as it may. I think thermite would work without hickups. It would be far more desirable to replace PETN with RDX. I'm sure RDX can be detonated via
thermal shock, question is in the delay time.
@Wizard
I don't have sodium nitrate or woodmeal. I did see a video of people mixing ETN/AN in larger quantities, making a very OB positive mix. It works, but
is a waste of ETN, IMO.
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Rosco Bodine
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Thermite itself is difficult to ignite so advantage would be lost there for needing
something to ignite the thermite, and it requires a specialized sort of thermite based on barium peroxide IIRC. Anyway this discussion seems to be
wandering off course. There is a lot of technology which seems to be a solution in search of a problem to solve that really isn't a problem.
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The WiZard is In
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Driving thread off the road where it crashes and burns....
If you run DDT Detonators through Google Patents
you will get 6-hits.
Now back to the original topic... >
1700 Gram Sand Tests
Explosive grams % TNT
crushed
PETN 57.9 140
Mannitol Hexanitrate 56.4 137
Cyclonite (RDX) 53.2 129
EDNA 48.4 117
Teryl 47.7 116
Dinitroethyleneurea 45.0 109
TNB 43.2 105
Picric Acid 41.8 101
Trinitroanisole (TNAns) 41.7 101
TNT 41.2 100
Trimonite 39.9 97
Diazodinitrophenol 39.7 96
(DADNPh)
Trinitrotehylbenzene 36.3 88
(TNEB)
Trinitroxylene (TNX) 34.5 84
Ammonium Picrate (AP) 33.7 82
Amatol 40/60 33.4 81
Amatol 50/50 34.0 83
Dinitrobenzene (DNB) 23.6 57
Mercuric Fulminate (MF) 22.5 55
Lead Azide (LA) 18.6 45
Lead Styphnate (LSt) 10.9 26
From: PATR 2700 B298
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The WiZard is In
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The fact that this is on my HD had slipped off my mind
Journal of the Society of Chemical Industry
Vol. 18 1899 p. 83
ERYTHROL TETRANITRATE: A CAUTION.
Chem. and Druggist, Jan. 14, 1899, 59.
A correspondent of the British Medical Journal states that he
recently received by post a sample labeled erythrol tetranitrate, a
white powder in a small glass bottle. There were no directions or
dose printed on the bottle, so he put it in the waste-paper basket.
Result: an explosion occurred next morning, and the cook was
partially stunned and received about two dozen small wounds on
the hands, arms, and face, three or four containing glass. The
housemaid had emptied the waste-paper basket into the dustpan
containing hot ashes. " So explosive a compound as erythrol
tetranitrate should surely not," adds the correspondent " be sent
out without special precautions."
pg. 315
ERYTHROL TETRANITRATE.
Chem. and Druggist, March 18, 1899, 443
The Home Secretary states that erythrol tetranitrate is not an
explosive within the meaning of the Explosives Act, but the
question is under consideration whether an official warning should
be issued calling attention to its explosive character.
pg. 415
OFFICIAL NOTICE.
ERYTHROL TETRANITRATE.
SIR,
An accident, by which a chemist lost his life, happened at a tabloid
factory at Dartford on December 15,1897. He was engaged in
mixing tetranitrate of erythrol with finely-powdered lactose in a
mortar when an explosion occurred.
Again, at the end of 1898, an accident was caused by tetranitrate
of erythrol being inadvertently thrown into a fire, and one person
was injured.
Tetranitrate of erythrol is possessed of explosive properties, and is
highly sensitive more so, indeed, to percussion than dynamite or
guncotton. As it has lately come into some use in the place of
nitro-glycerin as a remedy for angina pectoris, I should be glad if
you would draw special attention in your paper to the dangers
attending the handling of this drug.
I have the honour to be, Sir,
Your obedient Servant,
A. FORD (Colonel),
H. M. Chief Inspector of Explosive.
Home Office, Whitehall, S.W., March 24.
The Dangers and Uses of Erythrol-tetranitrate.
The Medical bulletin: a monthly journal of medicine and surgery,
Volume 20 1898
We have received from Messrs. Burroughs, Wellcome & Co., a
detailed account of the circumstances attending the fatal explosion
of erythrol-tetranitrate, which occurred at their works at Dartford.
It appears that the deceased—a qualified chemist—was engaged
in stirring together in a mortar a mixture of erythrol-tetranitrate
and lactose, presumably for the purpose of making tabloids. The
quantity of the active drug served out to him was four ounces, and
there is reason to believe that the dangerous nature of the
combination was fully explained to him at the time by the chief of
the department. The explosion was violent, but its effects were,
fortunately, local. The jury returned a verdict of "accidental death,"
and passed a resolution expressing their appreciation of the
facilities placed at their disposal by the firm for investigating the
circumstances of the case. For much of our knowledge of the
physiological action of erythrol-tetranitrate and its congener,
mannitol-hexanitrate, we are indebted to Professor Bradbury, of
Cambridge, who gave some account of the pharmacology of these
substances, based chiefly on a series of experiments made by Mr.
Marshall, M.B., in Professor Schmiedeberg's laboratory at
Strassburg.
Erythrol-tetranitrate is solid and crystalline, and melts at a
temperature of 61° C. (142° F.). When pure it is colorless, and if
kept in a dark and moderately cool place is fairly stable. If exposed
to warmth, and especially sunlight, it rapidly undergoes
decomposition, turning yellow and giving off nitrous fumes. Its
solubility in water is slight, but it dissolves readily in alcohol and in
ether. It is a vasodilator and belongs to the group of which
glycerol-trinitrate, known familiarly as nitroglycerin, may be
regarded as the typical representative. Blood-pressure
experiments show that the nitrates of erythrol and mannitol have a
less marked, but more prolonged, action than those of glycerol
and glycol. On theoretical grounds, it might be supposed that the
new remedies would be useful in the treatment of cardiac pain,
Bright's disease, migraine, and Raynaud's disease, but, as far as
we have been able to learn, there has been very little demand for
them. Professor Bradbury, in a letter, states that he is able to
speak very highly of its therapeutic properties in warding off
attacks of angina pectoris. Dr.- Garraway mentions the case of a
who has derived immense relief from its use, and won long
periods of complete immunity. Dr. Bradbury, in the lecture to which
reference has been made, stated that the dose of the solid organic
nitrates was a grain, but that more might be given if thought
necessary. He suggested that they should be taken in the form of
pills or tablets or in alcoholic solution. There is now, unfortunately,
very little doubt that these new organic nitrates cannot be handled
with impunity in any form in which trituration is necessary. They,
in common with many other nitrates, were known to be explosive,
but that they would develop such activity by being merely gently
stirred with lactose could not have been foreseen, although
Professor Bradbury in his letter expresses the opinion that, mixture
with some readily oxidizable substance might increase the liability
to explosion.—British Medical Journal.
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Rosco Bodine
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| Quote: | "Result: an explosion occurred next morning, and the cook was
partially stunned and received about two dozen small wounds on
the hands, arms, and face, three or four containing glass. The
housemaid had emptied the waste-paper basket into the dustpan
containing hot ashes." |
Yogi Berra .....It's deja vu all over again
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holmes1880
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How unusual. ETN was filed for patent in 1927, yet these accident are happening in the late 1800's.
I doubt they were using the erythrol product we're working with today. It was still the dawn of HE, and I'm sure the production process was far from
optimal.
[Edited on 11-6-2011 by holmes1880]
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880 | How unusual. ETN was filed for patent in 1927, yet these accident are happening in the late 1800's.
I doubt they were using the erythrol product we're working with today. It was still the dawn of HE, and I'm sure the production process was far from
optimal. |
Me thinks your transmitter works but you receiver has burned out.
As I had posted sometime ago ErTeN (to be professional) was
first made in 1847.
"filed for patent" is academically lame, without a issuing country
and patent number it is impossible to know what you are talking
about. I would posit your patent was for a specific method of production.
"production process far from optimal." If you are synthesizing it
by the pound for use as a drug any process is good enough —
by the ton for use as an explosive - only the most efficient
process is good enough.
And ... whatever method was used to produce it ... it went KAFUCKINGBOOM.
ErTeN's first use was for the treatment of Angina Prectoris,
currently nitroglycerin and PETN are used. I don't know when
its explosive properties were discovered.
From my ever useful copy of WB Campbell, Hand-Book of Modern
Medical Treatment and Medical Formulary, 1912.
P.368
Angina Pectoris.
Erythrol-tetanitratis gr j.
Alcohois, f13j.
Aquae dest. f3vij
Let me say another dirty word here — history.
Picric acid was first made by first noticed by Glauber 1742,
however, it was not until 88-years latter 1840, that Welter
suggested its use as an explosive.
djh
----
Trivia —
Campbell suggest injecting carbolic acid
to treat a felon.
You can make picric acid from public hair
and other common household products.
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holmes1880
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Keep it together, old man. Ammonium nitrate also exploded once and so did nitromethane. Everything that's explosive can explode if required conditions
are met.
I know you're not used to Google, but here you go:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/25882721/Erythritol-Tetranitrate-E...
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a_bab
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Ammonium nitrate exploded way more then once, and I'm not talkin' ANFO here but that nice fertilizer that once instantly vaporised in a huge fart
leaves a horrible red plume of NO2.
holmes1880, you suggested you'll leave this thread once. Your evolution here went like:
- being critical with the initiator - launching the "confinementsky theorietzki" - trolling - promissing to leave the thread - trolling again - more
trolling - ...
All you did here was trolling, mostly. Then you trolled even more. By trolling I mean useless, irrelevant interventions. Obviusly, ETN is the subject
of your thesis, and you probably use it to salt up your food or something. So it looks at least. Or you want to.
Oh, BTW: you don't want to know the purity achieved by the early 19'th century chemists in their synths. You can't compare it with your home setup,
using draino etc. no matter how much you'd dream about. Read a bit about Bunsen's life for instance, or any other chemist from that period. I'm sure
you can't make your own ultra balance, nor can you blow your own glassware.
Really, just fuck off.
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| Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880 | Keep it together, old man. Ammonium nitrate also exploded once and so did nitromethane. Everything that's explosive can explode if required conditions
are met.
I know you're not used to Google, but here you go: |
The (my point) has missed the target.
The fact that ErTeN was an explosive was discovered by accident.
Howard - mercury fulminate, DuLong - nitrogen trichloride,
"Bunsen met with a severe accident in 1841 while analyzing the
cyanide of [k][c]acodyl. The combustion tube exploded and injured
one of his eyes, and the experimenter himself lay for weeks
between life and death, owing to the combined effects of the
explosion and the poisonous nature of the vapor." Ascanio Sobrero
- nitroglycerin. All found out the explosive nature of their
inventions when they bit them in the ass.
My 6th edition copy of Bretherick's Handbook of Reactive
Chemical Hazards is 1 926 pages of unexpected results.
----
Noted in passing ..
Bunsen called his compound Kacodyl after the Greek - meaning
smells worse than a used woman.
I would note (patting self on back) that I am cited in Bretherick's
6th page 1376. #4017, Potassium chlorate - Phosphorus (red).
djh
----
"Tramp" explosives or detonators are like
poisonous snakes — usually strike when least
expected. More often than not, they badly maim
or destroy the eyesight or other parts of the
body of their victims.
US Bureau of Mines
IC7038
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quicksilver
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Does this thread need to be closed or can we deal respectfully with each other?
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holmes1880
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@a-babe
Is this that time of the month for you? You're way too angry and emotional. Every post in here has been a silly little attack of me. Get lost.
EDIT @ quicksilver:
a-bab is crossing some lines here. Not the first time either.
[Edited on 11-6-2011 by holmes1880]
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Lord Emrone
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It's a bad idea to melt ETN and people don't know this. I've done it twice above a candle, luckily nothing happened.
Maybe members of this forum should make a manual on how to synth and handle safily this kind of explosives.
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albqbrian
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My two cents...
First, AR a big thanks for sharing. It's very difficult to go public when you did something that in hindsight you just can't believe you did. You're
certainly not alone in doing something like that; but you are unusual in sharing it for all of our benefit.
A disclaimer. I had an inadvertent explosion in my hand a long time ago. It involved some flash powder that I'd made many times previously. But that
day, for whatever reason, it went off. Luckily it was a small quantity and only wrapped in tissue paper. I got away with 2nd degree burns on my wrist.
And quite an ass chewing from my family doctor. After that I've been much more cautious. Anyone working with energetic materials is always taking a
chance. You must realize that, decide that you are thus going forward, and do all you can to protect yourself.
AR's accident has some additional instructional value. In another thread we discussed shielding and examining your set-up to see how it would propel
itself as shrapnel if things went wrong. Look at AR's pic; you see a classic shrapnel pattern from an exploding cylinder. Things fly radially from the
long axis. That's why when I test rocket motors I bury them upside down. If the thing goes boom the pieces all get flung into the dirt walls. I'd say
AR was holding the tube in his right hand with the open end slightly above horizontal. His body art certainly suggests that. I'd also guess that, in
this case; it was a good thing the tube wasn't too far away from his body. A greater offset would have "opened up" the pattern and the shrapnel would
have hit his face.
If you're going to work on energetic materials think of what will protect you if the stuff blows up. Because you're dealing with probabilities, not
certainties. Can you shield yourself? Can you use remote handling? Etc., Etc.
AR, I wouldn't bail on chemistry right now. Yes, this has refocused you on your family which is correct. However you're still in a vulnerable place
emotionally. Take a few months off. There are many ways to dabble in our beloved field with the direct, very risky HE path. maybe rocketry will
interest you and your little one, maybe volunteering at a school, who knows. Just give it some time.
On a less pleasant angle. I suggest you get a consultation with a criminal defense attorney. So if you are contacted by a cop you don't say or do
anything that could cause you more problems; problems that should be avoidable if you have a good legal plan.
Best of wishes for your recovery!
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by albqbrian |
If you're going to work on energetic materials think of what will protect you if the stuff blows up. Because you're dealing with probabilities, not
certainties. Can you shield yourself? Can you use remote handling? Etc., Etc.
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I have always thought this a good idea.
Extracted from :—
Teleflite Corporation
Building Your Own Rocket Motors
Predecessor to :—
David G. Sleeter
Amateur Rocket Motor Construction:
A Complete Guide To The Construction
Of Homemade Solid Fuel Rocket Motors
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holmes1880
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I use a wooden block 2X4 about 3'' long to press ETN caps in thin aluminum. If for some reason it goes bang, the wood should catch most of the
aluminum and the 3 layers of tape prevent wood from going at very high velocities in a small splinters. My fingers would be 1'' away from the block
and I expect to have no permanent injuries at that distance. Caps range between 0.5-1g.
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880 | | I use a wooden block 2X4 about 3'' long to press ETN caps in thin aluminum. If for some reason it goes bang, the wood should catch most of the
aluminum and the 3 layers of tape prevent wood from going at very high velocities in a small splinters. My fingers would be 1'' away from the block
and I expect to have no permanent injuries at that distance. Caps range between 0.5-1g. |
My WAG would be even the best tape in La Word "Gorilla" brand
Duct tape would not stand a chance. And by the by .... wood is
not radiopaque. Glass is not much better. If you are going to use
glass used leaded glass, melt down the front screen from your old
CRT monitor - Grandma-ma's crystal-ware.
Put your device to a test or two and please report back.
djh
----
Extracted from :—
Tell The WiZ (donald j haarmann)
American Fireworks News # 38 November 1984
USES FOR PYROTECHNICS YOUR MOTHER NEVER TOLD YOU ABOUT.
THE WORLD'S MOST EXPENSIVE FOUNTAIN — THE HYDROGEN BURNOFF IGNITER.
[Watch for it on the next/last Space Shuttle Launch.]
The device was designed to burn off excess hydrogen gas near the
Space Shuttle main engine nozzle immediately before ignition.
Design'd to function for 8+2 seconds, producing a
three foot flame with a temperature greater than 1500 degrees F
at maximum output, while projecting hot particles 15 feet when
fired directly into or perpendicular to a 34.5 knot wind (40 mph).
[If indeed this gem can project hot particles 15 feet perpendicular
to a 40 mph wind, it must hum!]
A total of 46 units were fabricated, and of these 21 “were to go into
lot qualification and 20 units were for shipment". [How would you
like to test to destruction every other device you produce before
sale?!]
You can DL the complete copy of this report from the DTIC.
[Edited on 12-6-2011 by The WiZard is In]
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holmes1880
dushbag
Posts: 194
Registered: 13-12-2010
Location: http://highexplosivesforum.forumotion.com/
Member Is Offline
Mood: Egregious
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I use electrical tape, gorilla tape, and again electrical tape. It would be shocking if the wood would splinter through those layers. I'm wearing
thick goggles, just in case, so I'd be all right. Hearing would suffer, I'm sure, but in the short term.
P.S. Yes, I need to put it to the test in a thick cardboard box to see how the splinters behave and whether the wood is catching the aluminum
shrapnel.
[Edited on 12-6-2011 by holmes1880]
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Lord Emrone
Harmless
Posts: 30
Registered: 5-2-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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holmes, your ETN-press-thing doesn't look safe. You should surround the cap with an absorbing material like styrofoam. Wood doesn't absorb. If your
fingers are in the same position as on the picture during a det, you could very well lose your thumb. And instead of aluminium you should use paper.
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Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
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Maybe it was ignorant shipbuilders who constructed the decks of battleships from laminated wood timbers. Yeah it was probably conjecture and not
engineering
which caused wood to be selected as the material of choice.
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