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not_important
International Hazard
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Sounds similar to the Canadians:
| Quote: |
Mar. 31 - Canada: Restricted Components Regulations
From Canada’s Ministry of Natural Resources, and recently printed in the Canada Gazette. The full text of the regulations is available here. A few
key details:
What it covers:
The following components of an explosive are prescribed for the purpose of the definition “restricted component” in section 2 of the Act:
(a) ammonium nitrate in solid form at a concentration between 28 and 34% nitrogen;
(b) hydrogen peroxide at a concentration of at least 30%, UN numbers: 2015 and 3149;
(c) nitromethane, UN number: 1261;
(d) potassium chlorate, UN number: 1485;
(e) potassium perchlorate, UN number: 1489;
(f) sodium chlorate in solid form, UN number: 1495;
(g) nitric acid at a concentration of at least 68%, UN numbers: 2031 and 2032;
(h) potassium nitrate, UN numbers: 1486 and 1499; and
(i) sodium nitrate in solid form, UN numbers: 1498 and 1499.
[Section 3 of the Act]
These components will no longer be available for sale in Canada:
No person shall sell a restricted component except in accordance with these Regulations.
[Section 4 of the Act]
Unless the seller is on the list of sellers of restricted components
The restrictions on Ammonium Nitrate come into effect on June 1, 2008 and the restrictions on all other chemicals come into effect on March 1, 2009
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And the USA
| Quote: |
Three of the four points of paragraph 5 in the judge's order that may have the greatest effect on amateur rocket scientists are that Firefox is
permanently restrained from "participating in any transaction that involves selling, giving away, holding for sale, or otherwise distributing:"
* To any delivery address or to any individual, more than one pound of any oxidizer per twelve-month period;
* To any delivery address or to any individual, any fuel for which the particle size is finer than 100 mesh (or particles less than 150 microns in
size); and
* To any delivery address or to any individual, any tube 10 inches or shorter in length.
As defined in the order, "Oxidizer" means ammonium nitrate, potassium chlorate, potassium perchlorate, potassium nitrate, sodium chlorate, sodium
perchlorate, sodium nitrate, barium nitrate, strontium nitrate, or potassium permanganate. "Fuel" means aluminum and aluminum alloys, magnesium,
magnesium/aluminum alloys (magnalium), antimony sulfide, antimony trisulfide, potassium benzoate, sodium benzoate, sodium salicylate, sulfur,
titanium, zinc, zirconium, or zirconium hydride.
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Looks like the West as just about handy 21st century chemistry to the Indians and Chinese, rocketry too perhaps. Primary and secondary educational
organizations are cut out in the Canadian case, unless they're run by the government; I doubt that many will want to deal with anything so
obviously dangerous. Even higher education establishments are likely to think twice, and some breath mints mixed with carbonated beverages
don't seem to me to be a great hook on getting kids excited about chemistry so those chemistry (and physics?) departments may have few students.
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franklyn
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The inadvertent curtailment of amateur chemistry is a consequence of anonymous
diversion of chemicals for unlawful end use. Commerce involving chemical substances
is not banned, just more stringently monitored and regulated. Legitimate use not
specifically outlawed has to be defended on its own merit. This is a political matter,
not one of legislation or law enforcement. Pest exterminators always required
licensing to use pesticides, pharmacies of course require to be registered, garden
and horticultural users also need to provide information on fertilizer transactions.
Firearms use is licensed and purchases are recorded in the same way for the
same reasons. The United States has a tradition of individual firearm ownership
which is zealously protected by principally the National Rifle Association.
There is no lobby for amateur chemists, hence we are not heard or acknowledged.
The only realistic remedy to becoming a marginalised minority is to provide some
form of registration or licensing for individual end users.
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vulture
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Anybody remember what happened when the US government banned alcohol in the 30's?
Look at the bright side, more power for the amateur chemist, with every legislative crackdown you gain knowledge, means and thus power over the
unwitting masses. Just don't do stupid stuff which gets you caught.
The laws of nature will always prevail over ignorant politicians, no matter how hard they'll try. Suck it up, wait a few years and laugh yourself
silly when poetic justice kicks in.
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Magpie
lab constructor
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This really makes me sick for the German home chemists. If you have ever visited the versuchchemie.de site you quickly see what an enthusiastic and
competent bunch they are, even though most are quite young. Unfortunately, this latest political invective may, out of necessity, turn them all into
total synthesis freaks.
As for my position in the US, it is a warning shot across the bow.
[Edited on 3-8-2008 by Magpie]
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chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus
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| Quote: | | I do not believe this is a gestapo on hobbyists, I think that the damage done to hobbyists is collateral damage, which is deemed acceptable by the
government. |
I'm also most concerned by this.
I hope the Germans on that forum at versuchschemie raise some serious law suits. If I had been raided in this manner, I'd certainly sue, even if it
meant selling all my chems to pay for the friggin laywers 
I agree this is considered collateral damage. Germans have always been weird about a few things - take nuclear power for example. Totally irrational
to prohibit it to the extent they do. They actually chain themselves to the rail tracks when a 'castor transport' (delivering nuclear waste to a
storage site) happens, and people were in fact killed becuase the chained people weren't released fast enough from the rails. It is because there is a
very significant green movement in Germany, and of course the fear of anything nuclear (in part due to WW2, Hiroshima/Nagasaki, essentially directly a
product of German scientists, and the war itself). I think this extends to anything explosive related nowadays - and perhaps even science altogether.
Science unfortunately does not have the same credentials in Germany as it used to - again for historical reasons- because so much of science was
abused for the purpose of war. This is why, before the war, Germany had more than 50% of all Nobel prizes together. Whilst, after the war, the
emphasis was on restructuring the country, generating a happy peaceful people that would not dabble in things that could ever be abused for war
purposes. Hence the green movement too, and the antinuclear stance. Basically the emphasis shifted to the well-being of the people, rather than their
achievements. The former has certainly been achieved, equality is great in Germany, and people are generally very well off. Achievement is, unlike in
the US, not anymore considered a lofty desirable goal. This has both positive and negative ramifications. Positive being, there aren't many poor, not
much crime (comparably), and everyone is generally happy. Generally. Negative being, Germany has lost the edge scientifically for the last 50 years.
Sometimes I think this will bounce back, but given how underfunded the univeristy/science sector is, I doubt it. It is simply considered more
important to make sure the unemployed are kept happy with their benefits, rather than spending that very money on massive science projects.
It's a pity in a way. But let's not forget (with this one I address the americans here) - Germany doesn't have the oil dollar, it doesn't sell huge
quantities of profitable weapons, and so on - there *is* a reason why the US can afford to fund science to the degree it does! Then, undeniably,
there's an extremely competitive spirit in science in the US, which is not the same here in Europe.
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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len1
National Hazard
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I think todays Germany has got most things right. If its worried more about lowly unemployed than funding the ego-driven money feasts of the
scientific community it has that right too - compare the beauty of most German cities to the eye-sore insult to humanity of the US inner-cities. The
competitive edge in US science is more appropriate to the business envirnoment than to science, where it has produced few results.
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Sauron
International Hazard
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Oh yes we all remember the "beauty" of much of East Germany. East Berlin still mostly in rubble well into the 1960s, two decades after the war's end.
Interesting segue from "ego-driven money feast of the scientific community" to a discussion or urban blight.
But I am really not sure what either has to do with the thread topic, in the slightest way. Are you perhaps on the same meds as JohnWW? Skipped your
anti-polemic pill today? Take two tomorrow.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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len1
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That link was of course made in the long post above, and there is a validity to it - where does an afluent society spend its money? As for thread
topic - it seems the topic of all your threads is you - something Im not the least bit interested in
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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Let's try to keep this thread about the recent chemical raids and the changing regulatory environment.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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woelen
Super Administrator
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Things in Germany are developing into really ridiculous things. Some potassium salts are considered weapons by German law (potassium salts of certain
nitrated aromatic compounds) and possession of such compounds only is allowed by people, having suitable permits.
One of the guys (chemieknolle) from www.versuchschemie.de was raided and they found K4Fe(CN)6 and KNO3 and a whole bunch of other chemicals. The chemicals were taken away, but now
the chemicals were returned to him, except the K4Fe(CN)6 and KNO3. The reason given by the expert: "Potassium salts are considered weapons by German
law". Expert????? This really is ridiculous, it is really astonishing that such incompetent people are paid by governments (and indirectly by us) and
that these same incompentent people determine what happens with your property! 
So, KCl, KBr, K2CO3 etc. all are considered weapons by this incompetent 'expert'. I can understand that some particular nitrated compounds are
considered weapons, but this law is only read halfway by such an incompetent 'expert'. The problem in this case is not the law, but the person who has
to enforce the law.
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Sauron
International Hazard
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Well, while I agree that this is ludicrous on its face, potassium (and sodium) ferrocyanide are well known as immediate precursors for HCN as is well
illustrated by threads on our own forum and many places in the literature.
So one can take the legalistic position: is potassium ferrocyanide prohoboited/restricted in German law or not? If answer is yes then end of story. If
answer is no then apparently the German authorities have decided to be sufficiently concerned about possible HCN sources, to overstep their
authority's limits.
I hardly need to elucidate the uses of KNO3 here. Among many others, preparation of HNO3, prepn of black powder, and use in many pyrotechnic and
blasting mixtures. Many or all of these have been dealt with on this forum over and over and over.
Let me repeat, I agree that these confiscations are silly, and may not have any basis in law. But let's now pretend that official concern is totally
unfounded and without rational basis whatsoever.
Because that is not the issue. The issue is whether or not possession of lawfully acquired KNO3 and pot.ferrocyanide, is in fact now illegal in
Germany. If not then the cops are on very thin ice.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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oldtimer
Harmless
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Home chemist's association formed
Something is happening in Germany:
As a reaction to the events mentioned above in this thread, and to form a representation that speaks publicly in favour of people doing home chemistry
and other (private) experimentation, a group of members of the German board Versuchschemie founded the
"Interessenverband Naturwissenschaft und Technik", IVNT
(interest group for schience and technology).
The constituting assembly was held on Saturday, Aug. 9. A web site (www.ivnt.de and www.ivnt.org) will appear soon, in the meantime our statutes and a membership application can be found on www.versuchschemie.de. While the group will concentrate it's activities to Germany and, to a lesser extent, other EU countries, members from all
parts of the world are welcome. Annual fees are € 50 for regular members, € 20 for under 18, students, unemployed, etc.
Our main activities will be trying to influence the public perception of home experimentation, giving the home experimentator a voice, helping people
(Of course, with an emphasis on members) who through their activities got the attention of law enforcement, and trying to influence rulemaking towards
more liberal conditions for private science.
Any of these activities is only possible with a sufficiently large membership - only a loud voice will be heard, and only a deep war chest can move
things.
I am happy to answer any questions,
info@ivnt.de
oldtimer
president IVNT
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Arrhenius
Hazard to Others
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^^ Excellent way to respond to the issue at hand in Germany. Thanks for the info.
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joeflsts
Hazard to Others
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oldtimer
Something is happening in Germany:
As a reaction to the events mentioned above in this thread, and to form a representation that speaks publicly in favour of people doing home chemistry
and other (private) experimentation, a group of members of the German board Versuchschemie founded the
"Interessenverband Naturwissenschaft und Technik", IVNT
(interest group for schience and technology).
The constituting assembly was held on Saturday, Aug. 9. A web site (www.ivnt.de and www.ivnt.org) will appear soon, in the meantime our statutes and a membership application can be found on www.versuchschemie.de. While the group will concentrate it's activities to Germany and, to a lesser extent, other EU countries, members from all
parts of the world are welcome. Annual fees are € 50 for regular members, € 20 for under 18, students, unemployed, etc.
Our main activities will be trying to influence the public perception of home experimentation, giving the home experimentator a voice, helping people
(Of course, with an emphasis on members) who through their activities got the attention of law enforcement, and trying to influence rulemaking towards
more liberal conditions for private science.
Any of these activities is only possible with a sufficiently large membership - only a loud voice will be heard, and only a deep war chest can move
things.
I am happy to answer any questions,
info@ivnt.de
oldtimer
president IVNT |
This ultimately is what it is going to take around the world. There are scattered organizations in the US for example that are trying. I have also
been working at a personal level in the US to get some attention to draconion laws here. The problem is:
Hobbyists in general do not have the money to get politician's attention.
It is difficult, if not impossible to get corporate sponsorship. It isn't so much a reason based on legality but more based on the fact that
"profesional chemists" tend to have disdain for amateurs. Since they represent the unofficial "official" voice of buyers of most potential corporate
sonspors it makes it difficult to be taken seriously.
The drug and explosive related negative news stories hurt, plain and simple.
Each major hobby tends to have it's political arm. For example the AMA represents model airplane hobbyists. Utlimately we need something similar.
Joe
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woelen
Super Administrator
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I am considering joining this group, but how many members does the group have at the moment?
Unfortunately I see a tendency that professional chemists are more and more negative towards home chemistry. I am a member of a Dutch chemistry forum,
not specific for home chemistry, but general chemistry. You see that most negative reactions come from professional chemists, working in industry or
on universities. They simply state that home chemistry is plain wrong, irresponsible and dangerous. This has nothing to do with fear of drug-making or
terrorism, they truly believe that most home chemists have good intents and do not want to do anything illegal, but they do not believe that home
chemists can work safely in a residential area, without all the safety equipment and procedures, as one can expect in a serious, well-equipped lab.
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Magpie
lab constructor
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| Quote: |
They simply state that home chemistry is plain wrong, irresponsible and dangerous.
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I am a retired professional chemical engineer and strongly disagree with these professional chemists. This is just a nanny state way of looking at
life. They should be ashamed for taking a position that discourages inquiry into the sciences. People should be allowed to assess their own
capabilities and risks.
You can find many examples in other activities and hobbies where the state does not meddle to the point of intimidation: skydiving, extreme
whitewater kayaking, racecar driving, mountain climbing, etc. Even ordinary sports such as football, baseball, and horseback riding all entail a
certain amount of risk to life and limb that the participant must evaluate for himself. But chemistry seems to be in a class by itself where others
are deciding that the risks are not acceptable and cannot be evaluated by the participant.
People are allowed to work on their cars, use power tools, do welding, and make pottery with kilns and toxic glazes, in their own garages or backyards
in residential areas. How is this so different from home chemistry?
I think the reason for this is rooted in the bad publicity that chemistry has gotten in recent years due to illegal drug making and terrorist bomb
making. It didn't used to be this way. As has been eloquently expressed by Robert Bruce elsewhere on this forum a chemistry set was one of the most
popular of Christmas presents as recently as the 1960's. Where were the nannies then? Why they were writing articles for Scientific American showing
people how they could do sophisticated chemistry and other science projects economically at home.
[Edited on 18-8-2008 by Magpie]
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Rosco Bodine
Banned
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Yay 
Academic snobbery occupies that same niche as the old axiom ......
Every crow thinks hers is the blackest.
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vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
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| Quote: |
This has nothing to do with fear of drug-making or terrorism, they truly believe that most home chemists have good intents and do not want to do
anything illegal, but they do not believe that home chemists can work safely in a residential area, without all the safety equipment and procedures,
as one can expect in a serious, well-equipped lab. |
I'm going to bet that they're either into QM, spectroscopy or physical chemistry. That is, the kind of "chemist" that gets goose bumps from an acetone
spill.
I'm pursuing a Ph. D. so I consider myself a professional chemist and will likely join this organization if it proves to be worth its salt.
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len1
National Hazard
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Funny if one considers that most reactions of the type discussed here were made in the 19th century with labs equiped far worse than a person of
typical affluence can achieve today. Its not the safety measures, rather lack of sufficient knowledge that is most worrysome. If you show yourself
well equiped in that area there should be no objections
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not_important
International Hazard
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Ah, Len, you are being sensible, you've no career potential as a government official or job-protecting "trained professional"
I'm reminded of a company that I worked at, where new management wanted to downgrade all engineers without degrees to be technicians. This idea
lasted about 1 day, until the VP of engineering pointed out that 80% of the company's patents came from 3 non-degreed engineers, and it was the
non-degreed types that had come up with all the truely new product concepts and prototypes.
It appears that German police don't like much of anything:
| Quote: | THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
BERLIN -- German police have confiscated what may be the world's fastest office chair. Police say officers happened on the contraption - the work of
two inventive 17-year-olds - in the western town of Gross-Zimmern on Saturday.
The pair had added a lawnmower engine, bicycle brakes and a metal frame to the revolving chair - making into a go-kart-like vehicle.
Police said in a statement Monday the inventors insisted they had only tested it over a few meters, but witnesses reported seeing it on several
streets.
They are being investigated over a variety of possible offenses, including defying insurance regulations, driving without a license and violating
registration requirements.
Police did not say what top speed the chair could reach. |
Groß-Zimmern? Hardly a big town, cops must have too little to do so they spend time shutting down creativity.
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len1
National Hazard
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Yes, you are absolutely right. Most places I worked at my colleagues thought I came from another planet. Well I prefer that than the planet they
come from.
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The_Davster
A pnictogen
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Wow. Even in canada the gas powered couch was not confiscated. I have seen several.
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woelen
Super Administrator
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| Quote: | Originally posted by woelen
Lippert Lehrmittel is the name of the company, but also the family name. Their website is www.chemikalien-shop.de. The company is run by Janina Lippert, but customers relations is done by Rainer Bogatzki, who did this in a perfect way
with good service.
This company was a great source for chemicals in small quantities. Here you could buy e.g. 100 ml of SOCl2 for just a few euros, also private persons.
I also purchased some chemicals from this company in small quantities. But according to messages on Internet (whether it is true or not, it is unclear
to me), the company had a second 'shadow company' which was selling GBL on a multitonne-scale, some customers needed to be supplied by tank-trucks or
with drums of hundreds of liters. I hardly can believe this story, given the perfect service, quality and adherence to rules and regulations of the
company. This really was a good company, also respecting all rules of the EU, and not some shady thing like the chemical closet.
[Edited on 11-7-08 by woelen] |
Through private communication I was informed that indeed HUGE amounts of GBL were sold. This was not through the official webshop, but through some
other channel.
What is really disturbing though is that thrustworthy people, who purchased something in small quantities from the webshop, were raided, while they
did not have anything to do with the huge sales of GBL.
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chief
National Hazard
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My latest german experience is like that:
==> Politics and high bureaucrats say: Everything half as bad,
==> but Chem-Lobbyism ("Verband der chemischen Industrie", http://www.vci.de/, and others maybe too) "warn" the traders, not to sell certain things:
Eg. one can phone the "BundesOpiumStelle", in Bonn (http://www.bfarm.de/cln_029/DE/Home/startseite__node.html__n...),
and they will say: ==> "The certain thing is permitted".
--> Then you call the trader, and they tell you they don't want to sell, because they fear the bureaucrats, and because they have their order
(warnings etc.) from the lobby, not to sell !
It seems, that at the head of the country there are still some people right in the head, but lower-rank-bureaucrats abuse their possibilities (they
just brake the law, backed by the boss, knowing that to sue them is too expensive for most small businesses; and if sued successfully: they don't pay
personally anyways ).
It's mainly a lobby-thing, I believe:
==> Separation of the customers from the industry is almost complete: Ordinary people just have to buy the water-thinned things from the
drug-store, and give the 1000+ % profit to the few remaining companies
==> and now: Maybe just also separate the small businesses from their busines.
Without the lobby-ism of big chem-companies, they could by far not exist that well. The more they forbid simple things, the more important they get,
so spending the money o the lobby-ism is just a good investment for them ..., and they just ride the wave and use the occasion (anti-terror etc.)
Besides most of the terrorism anyway, as from the newspapers, is made via military explosives: They have theyr sources in the armies etc., and viewed
in that light: Maybe the one or other attack is just "planted" by some secret agency ... and it regularly was in the past, as 20th century-history
tells ... .
So far ...
[Edited on 21-9-2008 by chief]
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MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
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| Quote: |
What is really disturbing though is that thrustworthy people, who purchased something in small quantities from the webshop, were raided, while they
did not have anything to do with the huge sales of GBL. |
We shouldn't make generalizations or assumptions. Just because he/they sold large amounts of GBL does not necessarily mean that they are
untrustworthy.
Also, the people that purchased GBL are also not necessarily untrustworthy. Just because you make, sell or consume drugs does not mean you cannot be
trusted. This is a common misconception.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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