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Nevermore
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Those things will help little if a big charge explodes next to you, because you were performing a synth in the wrong way..
The biggest concern with AP is its sensitivity, with NG is working with concentrated acids and the risk of a runaway..
well, every thing has drawbacks. RDX and PETN are tricky to make if you don't have the correct equipment (include in that the correct % of acids
and starting materials.).
I suppose is better to start with something easy in dropwise quantity, then more to bigger scale, then go on something tricky only one you have gained
enough experience.
Nevermore!
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Mumbles
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I'm going to recomend the Urea Nitrate proceedure proposed by Mr. Anonymous a while ago. Its in the thread "From a Secret Admirer".
Its about 3 or 4 post down, just search the page for Urea Nitrate. Cut the ratios, by about 10 though, you'll get ~80-90g of product.
It's fairly simple, the chemicals involved arn't too dangerous, or exotic. It can handle deviations in reactant amount. Its not very
sensitive either.
Blackpowder would not be a bad option either. It has all the above feactures, but it is sensitive to flame. This means you could test the product
without the danger of dealing with more dangerous initiators. Personally black powder is still one of my favorite things. It's just so useful.
Before you do anything, do yourself a favor and read as much as you can. Knowing what, or why it happens, can be just as satisfying and rewarding as
a good product. It also helps to identify, and fix, possible problems that may occur.
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Microtek
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Having energetic materials as a hobby is indeed less forgiving than most other passtimes, but your ( cycloknight ) argument about the inevitability of
accident doesn't hold. First of all, there is probability of accident in every undertaking imaginable, but many people go through their lives
without ever crashing their cars or being injured from climbing trees. What is important is recognizing the big risks, which in our hobby means work
with primaries or unstable compounds. These risks can be minimized simply by choosing the most stable primaries around and using as small amounts as
possible.
I have had a few accidents in my younger days when I still used AP, but as I prefer the challenges of producing small devices and therefore only work
in sub-gram quantities, I have no scars to show for it.
And this brings me to my point; there is much more safety to be had in working with moderately sensitive compounds in small amounts than in using
insensitive explosives. Things such as ANFO or urea nitrate require so large quantities of primary that an accident with the detonator will be capable
of removing fingers. Also, because the detonator needs to be so large, the main charge "needs" to be large and will accordingly surely kill
you if it goes off in your vicinity. Finally, the disadvantage of LEs such as BP is that they require confinement which will often produce shrapnel
with a much greater lethality radius.
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Iv4
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Sorry for the delay
I guess I did go overboard and for that I must apologise 
I still think that AP accidents are opurely the users fault but after a recent incident hapening to a friend of mine(budget pyro,bryan)I guess its
only arrogant of me thinking it could never hapen to me.
Even with bridgewrire detonaters you have the danger of massive shocks but hey you coud use paper or plastic casings for your BP
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Nevermore
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| Quote: | Originally posted by CycloKnight
I absolutely never said that EGDN was completely safe, no explosive is. But it is safer than NG, and the larger the quantities being made, the larger
the difference. But if someone is only making a few cc, then the difference is quite small, but if someone is intent on making a litre of it, that?s
another matter.
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Hello
i wish to have some data about EGDN since the things in my hands says it is very little less sensitive than NG..also in case you have the physical
properties of both, IE: the boiling point, the vapour pressure, sensitivity to hit and friction, decomposition temp, decomposition rate at 20°C,
freezing point and so on..
They will be really useful for me.
Thanks
Nevermore!
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Iv4
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I meant ,CycloKnight, that I still think AP wont go of without provocation,but I've realized that even the best of us will eventually do somehing
to provoke it.
Here's all I could come up with concerning EGDN.It's not much but has a few tests(hint:just skim through it).
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vulture
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I'd like to point out that EGDN is much more toxic and volatile than NG, thus posing another extra hazard.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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Microtek
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Actually I was not contradicting myself, but I think a crucial point went missing, so just to get that straight:
- Regarding the inevitability issue, while having a non-zero probability of accident does mean that it will happen given enough time, it does not mean
that it will happen to a certain individual because no individual exists forever.
This is why I claim that your argument doesn't hold.
The point that went missing in my first post was that you can't live a risk-free life - and if you try to do so you might very well end up as a
very old man who has done and seen very little.
Of course, it is quite allright to decide for yourself, that explosives is not one of the things you want to have "done" in your life.
All this aside, I think we probably agree on the practical side of things regarding risk management, etc.
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Nevermore
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more, the probability of a small event is far larger than the one of a major, beside that we must consider that we are not sleeping with the chemicals
so the probability must be calculated only for the time we are directly working with them.
exceptional safety procedures can ensure a safe hobby, exceptional dumb people not observing them are candidate for Darwin award.
Nevermore!
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Iv4
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PGDN thread.Not so great.
Heh 21!?Thats it?I make like 30-40 on BS.
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chemoleo
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Iv4, your link makes both Mozilla and IE crash.... strange sense of humour you got 
Mumbles did you count to find your position on the all time poster list? Lol happy counting 
(unless there is some hidden function I am not aware of )
[Edited on 29-11-2003 by chemoleo]
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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tom haggen
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Evaporation
is it possible that when your done washing your NG with sodium bicarbonate that you can put your NG out in a small dish and simply let the excess
water evaporate out of it leaving you with pure NG?
-Tom
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Iv4
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I guess sos but I for one wouldnt try to heat up NG.
The links work fine for me on IE.Try copy/pasting them?
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IgnorantlyIntelligent
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Sorry if this is a stupid question but how could Ng detonate while making it? Ive had one runnaway while making it and evrything caught on fire. I
calmy pourred cold water over everything and all was fine. Had I not extinguished the flames so fast, could it have detonated somehow?
\"People fear from ignorance what they do not have the intelligence to understand\"
\"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation.\"
\"A fool would rather not question, a soldier is taught not to question, a slave dares not question.\"
\"To fight for nothing is to love nothing, to die for something is to have lived for something.\"
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chemoleo
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In fact, today I read somewhere that people tried a deliberate runaway reaction (in a professional lab). yet they they did not achieve a detonation.
Presumbably this is because pure NG amounts are not large enough, and not coagulated enough to form the quantities necessary for true detonation. Up
to a certain point, you only have an emulsion of NG and reaction mix. Only if you let it setlle, the NG forms an immiscible layer at the bottom,
clearly thats not going to happen at the beginning of a nitration.
Anyway, the critical diameter for NG is around 5 mm, so NG blobs would have to be pretty large and noticeable before you'd get detonation.
Edit: Oops, to answer your question, I doubt therefore that your runaway would have resulted in a true detonation. Rather, things would spew out more
and more (still its nasty hot acid so watch it) until none was left.
[Edited on 13-1-2004 by chemoleo]
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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IgnorantlyIntelligent
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I have always thought that NG was hard to make and dangerous but after making it, testing it, storing it for five months, and testing it again I have
relized that even a novice chemist can make a good pure product that is safe unless mistreated.
I dreamt of using up the rest of the Ng(about 20ml) on a tree where I go shooting. In the dream I was out of dets so I just used a 10/22 to shoot it.
First shot it detonated destroying the small brach I had it taped to and doing damage to the surrounding branches.
[Edited on 13-1-2004 by IgnorantlyIntelligent]
\"People fear from ignorance what they do not have the intelligence to understand\"
\"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation.\"
\"A fool would rather not question, a soldier is taught not to question, a slave dares not question.\"
\"To fight for nothing is to love nothing, to die for something is to have lived for something.\"
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IgnorantlyIntelligent
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Is it possible, when making NG, for the NG that has formed in the acid/nitrate/glycerin solution to disolve in the acid? I have been told that after
adding the glycerin, and letting it sit for about 20 min if you dont add it to double its volume of water the NG will start to disolve in the acid. I
dont believe this though because I've put NG in a small amount of sulfuric acid and it did not disolve it. I want to start leaving my Ng in the
solution longer because several batches of NG that I did didnt work. No glycerin was nitrated.
Another question I have is can you use too much Xnitrate? I use Ammonium nitrate. I normaly use about 40g ammonium nitrate, 50ml sulfuric acid(95%),
and 10ml glycerin. Sound good??
I use Ng for sensitizing AN/DBSP in my claymores and it is getting too expensive when half my NG batches dont work! Thanks for any help.
\"People fear from ignorance what they do not have the intelligence to understand\"
\"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation.\"
\"A fool would rather not question, a soldier is taught not to question, a slave dares not question.\"
\"To fight for nothing is to love nothing, to die for something is to have lived for something.\"
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guaguanco
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| Quote: | Originally posted by IgnorantlyIntelligent
First shot it detonated destroying the small brach I had it taped to and doing damage to the surrounding branches.
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In the dream, did you feel bad afterwards for damaiging the tree for no good reason? (1/2 smiley)
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IgnorantlyIntelligent
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Well niether of those posts answered my question.
No, sorry but I didn't feel bad for damaging the tree. There alota trees out here.
I didnt say NG was absolutely safe. I simply said that even a novice chemist(me) can make NG without a problem. Didnt say it was fool-proof. Half my
batches dont work but I think Ive solved my own problem. Speaking of which I have a batch outside nitrating as I speak so bye. -in a dream I mean...
I have gotten many different types of NG even though I follow the same precedure every time. I think I'm getting trinitroglycerin because it
matches all the characteristics of it. My last batch was clear, detonates with a hammer blow, and is VERY powerful(twice what AP seems to be). Ive
gotten NG that was dark, tan, white(water in it), clear, Each with different power and sensitivity.
I think these are all triNG but Im not sure.
Would monoNG even precipitate out of the liquid once added to water?
Even when following the same synthesis precedure, I will get different yeilds, and different product. It seems very unpredictable.
[Edited on 27-1-2004 by IgnorantlyIntelligent]
\"People fear from ignorance what they do not have the intelligence to understand\"
\"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation.\"
\"A fool would rather not question, a soldier is taught not to question, a slave dares not question.\"
\"To fight for nothing is to love nothing, to die for something is to have lived for something.\"
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IgnorantlyIntelligent
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Batch failer
I recently made another batch of NG(well tried too) and it went very wierd and wrong. I put 160g AN intoa beaker with 200ml of sulfuric acid 95%.
About 1 hour later I added the glycerin. I slowly poured 50ml inot the solution wihtout much temperature raise(stayed under 10c) I maintaned a temp
between 15c and 30c for aboput 10 min then let it sit at room temp for 20 more min. The mixture was VERY thick and turned darker and darker in color
every min. I then poured it into a beaker of twice its amount of water and NO2 appeared while pouring it(very litle though) The yeild was about 5ml
NG. I normaly do this exact same precedure but I do not allow the acid/nitraet solution to become so cold and I add the glycerin slower. My normal
yeild is about 50ml NG
Any ideas what the hell happend?
[Edited on 2-2-2004 by IgnorantlyIntelligent]
\"People fear from ignorance what they do not have the intelligence to understand\"
\"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation.\"
\"A fool would rather not question, a soldier is taught not to question, a slave dares not question.\"
\"To fight for nothing is to love nothing, to die for something is to have lived for something.\"
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Nevermore
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probable oxidation of glycerol by H2SO4=
too large excess H2SO4, too high temperature, your AN was not really what you thoght it was..
Alot of other reasons, but those are the most probable that bounce in my mind.
Nevermore!
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IgnorantlyIntelligent
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I have followed the same precedure before with great results. Why would it change? IS NG that unpredictable?
I dreamt of using the rest of my NG and DBSP to make some blasting gelatin sticks for this weekend. I guess more trees will suffer.
[Edited on 5-2-2004 by IgnorantlyIntelligent]
\"People fear from ignorance what they do not have the intelligence to understand\"
\"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation.\"
\"A fool would rather not question, a soldier is taught not to question, a slave dares not question.\"
\"To fight for nothing is to love nothing, to die for something is to have lived for something.\"
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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| Quote: | | I have followed the same precedure before with great results. Why would it change? |
Your materials changed, your methods changed, or your reaction conditions changed (or more than one of the above). That's it. The nice thing
about science is that if you perform an experiment exactly the same way twice, you will get the same result twice. Of course that doesn't mean
it's always easy to figure out what has changed when an experiment doesn't go as you expect.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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hightechstuff
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Purifying Nitroglycerin?
Hi Everyone,
I recently synthesized 10 ml of NG from Rooto drain cleaner, ammonium nitrate and glycerin. Now, I know this is a pretty $#!tty way to synthesize NG
but it did work. I am a little concerned about the purity of the final product though. The AN was fertilizer grade and had some impurities in it and
the 93% H2SO4 is obviously waste acid from some industrial manufacturing bottled up and sold as drain cleaner. The NG has the color of olive oil with
only a slight haze. A major concern for me is that these impurities will make the NG more unstable and possibly react negatively unprovoked. Is their
a way to purify my NG? Do I have a ticking time bomb on my hands? Any comments and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
hightechstuff
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ScienceGeek
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The hazyness is not a problem, as this is just a hydrated form of the nitroglycerin. This can be removed by desiccation.
The color, on the other hand, indicates (most likely) unwanted metal ions, probably from the H2SO4. This is a big problem when it comes to stability.
If it was me, I wouldn't dare desiccation, as it could detonate all on its own.
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