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quicksilver
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I have the weekend free; I'm actually going to start in. The biggest problem is to determine if success is met because the anaytical elements for
determination of a true clathrate may be too difficult for the hobbiest with home materials. Microscopic examination may help a little but is
certainly not conclusive even at above 500x and it doesn't mean a damn thing if it pops as hell of a lot of things could be responsible for energetic
activity.
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Rosco Bodine
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Direct sunlight on the filter cake should reveal the
glittering of tiny crystal faces on an even colored
material which almost has an irridescent effect when
wet , but then dulls considerably after drying ...is one
of the physical observations I have made , and another
is a color shift and reflectivity change can be seen in the suspended solids , as the chemical composition changes .
There was something to the contrary described in the
Kenney patents which noted that the physical appearance of the material would not change as
complexation proceeded ....but that is simply wrong
in my every observation , there are most definitely
considerable changes in the appearance of the material
colorwise and otherwise , as the chemical composition is changed .
Are you looking at other possibilities like barium , iron
or copper based multiple salts ....or are you going to
attempt different lead salts ?
Basic lead styphnate is a possibility as a substrate which would seem to be a natural for experiments , although
I have never tried it .
One thing is crucial , and that is allowing for the very
slow additions and keeping the solids in suspension ,
with a sufficiently rapid and deep vortex so that any
solids are continuously swept from the bottom of the beaker , and don't simply sit there like a sand dune
piled up along the bottom edge .....but are always
churned upwards into the reaction mixture . If you
have a tall beaker with a small stirbar which can be
run at high speed , at a certain speed the stirbar may
orbit in a small circle instead of spinning stably at a fixed
centerpoint in the bottom of the beaker . Or you may be able to run the stirbar slightly off center and cause
a vortex which will travel in a cyclical fashion , and keep
the solids from settling anywhere in one spot on the bottom . But this is essential that you be attentive
to keeping the solids in continuous motion suspended
and exposed to the liquid . I have even run an overhead
stirrer having a small nylon model boat propellor on the end of a shaft , directing the propwash into that area
where a duning of crystals would occur from the circulation caused by the magnetic stirbar , along with
positioning of a thermometer clamped at a location
which would further cause turbulence in the swirling
liquid ......whatever it takes to get the job done ,
something like the action of a blender , but without
the milling effect of blades .....is what is needed .
So it can be a bit tricky , and the larger the batch ....
the more of a trick it gets to be to achieve the necessary
good agitation . Lead salts are pretty dense and want
to go straight to the bottom and sit there .....so this
compares with trying to keep iron filings in suspension ,
or is maybe even a bit worse , but it can be done .
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quicksilver
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well, I actually tried the listed Kenny varients some time back. My results very very interesting in that what was projected for yield was not
realized by my efforts. On the other hand; the sensivity of a clathrate made with PbNO3 -=appeared=- higher that one made with acetate. The styphnate
issue sounds likely and would be very simple for me to give it a go. but in my heart, I want to attempt something wilder as I have a gut feeling that
there is more to the clathrate concept than meets the eye. However I realize that IF it should actually form up, that the utility is as a simple
curiousoty. UNLESS there is a method of working with the yield issue.
Remember you made a statement to the effect of " where else can you invest 25 gr of azide and get a yield of this level"? Shit; I don't know how you
figured out the extrapolated formula that you did but, it's true, the yield for your clathrate was better than those listed in the Kenny patent. I
know that for a fact as I tried the various listed clathrates and were below the margin of the one you worked out.
And indeed I thought of a differing salt but I doubt I would try it until I had more info. What I was thinking of was HgNO3-> mercuric azide ->
a clathrate in the usual manner. It's heavy, etc. But there may be more to lead than the superrficiality of weght. I simply don't have enough
information. Thus saturday will be my study day and sunday my lab  yea!
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Rosco Bodine
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Yeah the methods described by Kenney can be refined ,
as regards to sequence and temperatures , concentrations . IIRC the basic lead picrate - lead nitrate - lead chlorate
( non-azo clathrate ) yield is increased considerably by first forming the basic lead picrate alone , and then adding the lead nitrate - lead chlorate
components as a mixed solution of lead nitrate and potassium chlorate .....as opposed to Kenneys method which has all of the lead nitrate in the
reaction mixture from the start .
I'll have to check my notes and see how it was proportionally divided .....I can't remember if it was a mixture balanced for double decomposition to
lead chlorate alone , or for that , and additional lead nitrate supplying the lead nitrate portion of the triple salt . I don't recall the exact
sequencing I used , but I may be able to figure it out ...it was one way or the other .
I'll review my notes and try to remember the sequence ,
as I believe it is correct that I was able to also make
a 4/16 azo-clathrate based upon that basic lead picrate - lead nitrate - lead chlorate . By 4/16 what I mean to
say is represented :
4 [ Pb(C6H2N3O7)2 - Pb(OH)2 - Pb(NO3)2 - Pb(ClO3)2 - Pb(N3)2 ] 16 (PbN3)2
At first I thought it was possibly 4/17 .....but I think that
it was probably oversaturated slightly , and 4/16 is
more likely ....unless it is just an error in my notes .
I use abbreviations and improvised shorthand on notations
which are clear to me for the time I am doing experiments ,
but if I fail to transcribe the notes to plain english within
a reasonable time .....I forget my own abbreviations and
in time it becomes so much jibberish , so that I may have to repeat the experiments to try to figure out what in the hell I was doing  Hopefully the math will allow me figure out
the verbal description which correlates and then I can
transcribe / translate these damn hieroglyphics that too
often are my " lab notes " .
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quicksilver
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 -=I am VERY familiar with the "transcription" issue=-
Yea, If you can find any related info; let me know or post it.
Over the weekend - I attempted a crystal growth/sensitivity experiment with azo-clathrate material and it does appear that if the crystal is grown (as
in lead azide) the sensitivity spikes appriciably. This may seem like common sense however I was wondering if the lattice effects the material through
a physical "buffer". My experiments show this is not the case. Using a measuring mircoscope and re-crystalization of azo-clathrate so that I had a
consistent sample that was larger than the original; it's sensitivty was much greater to friction, impact and (to a limited extent) heat.
I had some notes that I wrote about two weeks ago (that I actually really wanted to utilize) and I couldn't figure out what one third of it was. If
they ever make a device for a handheld recorder that transcribes into text for a PC I may just invest.
[Edited on 20-2-2007 by quicksilver]
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pyromainiac420
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AP test what would it do to your hand (video)
i conducted a test with a fake hand with nearly 10g AP to see how much dammage it would do to you heres the link for the youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_5xBACMVnI as you can see you should be carefull with this stuff
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Broken Gears
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Holy crap! Nice test 
Why do people make AP? Its cheap and thats it! Way too sensitive and not that powerful.
There was a case not long ago in Denmark, where a group of young muslims (I feel bad for all muslims, because some think that blowing up civilians or
other targets
in a fight for God you'll get rewarded. I have read about Islam and it is a beautiful and peaceful religion and way of life. Too bad very few people
see that, even amongst them self) was arrested for making AP, it turned out to be a terror cell. But because of lack of evidence, only one was
sentenced. He got 10.. or was it 14 years in the prison.
What were they thinking? You need ALOT of AP to do some real damage to buildings, I belive.
Explosives are fun yes, but putting a explosive compund in a small closed can of some sort, is just plane dump, think about it.
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The_Davster
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Actually containment is only bad when the material needs a bit of a boost to det. The standard or exotic primaries do that without a can.
We have too many AP threads, this is being merged.
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Rosco Bodine
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Broken Gears
There was a case not long ago in Denmark, where a group of young muslims (I feel bad for all muslims, because some think that blowing up civilians or
other targets
in a fight for God you'll get rewarded. |
Wonder where they would get such a twisted idea
about dying while in the process of doing cold blooded murder .....being an act of supreme religous devotion
and sacrifice to be called martyrdom ? Real mystery where
any muslim would get that idea huh ?
| Quote: |
I have read about Islam and it is a beautiful and peaceful religion and way of life. |
Keep reading and keep telling yourself that , and see how well that squares with what you observe firsthand .
| Quote: |
Too bad very few people see that, even amongst them self) |
Must be just a lack of depth on the part of the outside non-muslim observer , and modesty and humility on the part of the muslims themselves , which
results in that sad kind of confusion which just sometimes brings out the beast in them huh ?
| Quote: |
was arrested for making AP, it turned out to be a terror cell. |
Nah , you don't mean it ....say it isn't so , that muslims would so something violent in Denmark , bringing bad reputation and publicity on their
gentle peaceful religion ??? Next they will probably be stabbing people to death on city sidewalks
because of fatwas issued over something silly like cartoons huh ?
| Quote: |
But because of lack of evidence, only one was sentenced. He got 10.. or was it 14 years in the prison.
What were they thinking? |
They were thinking about seventy virgins in their idea of heaven as reward from what they think is god , for murdering people whom they regard as
being their inferiors ....in spite of every evidence to the contrary of who are the lessers and the betters in the great food chain of the worlds
hierarchy .
When they go out in a blaze of glory , taking more decent folks with their sorry asses when they go .... in their minds they have the final word in
defining how things are , with
more little jihadi shitheads waiting in line to repeat their
spectacle ....as if one more affirmation and amen to what
stupidity went before somehow by repetition and attrition
of "the enemy" gains credibility for their twisted faith .
Fanatics are incapable of reason ....they rant , foam at the mouth , and do their mad dog deeds .....unless somebody
sees it coming and puts a clean stop to it first .
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pyromainiac420
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yeah id like to see the doctors in the ER try to put that hand back together...
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franklyn
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I wrote this up responding to the opening gambit before I read the whole thread
through , and now I feel like a boob chiming into a stealth discussion on clathrates?
No matter, its a novelty to feel like I've stayed up late to listen to the grownups.
The material is unpredictable to the extent that if it is used at all it is mostly by
suicide bombers because they are going to die anyway , duh.
When you ask " how sensitive is it " in effect you're saying how can I handle it
safely. If you need to ask , thats a big red flag that you should re-consider your
actions. It is a great lament that this is conspicuously absent in every way from
the usual banter on the subject of explosives but it is not obtainable by reading.
Explosives handling is one thing that really requires apprenticeship.
That means being observed , monitored , and supervised by those experienced
and indoctrinated in safe handling , so they may slap the back of your hand when
you do something potentially dangerous. If you do so more than a few times you
will be told to get the F*** off the range. It is established practice in the military
to work in pairs with one watching the other performing a task , why ? Because
what you yourself can't see will kill you. So how sensitive is it ? It doesn't matter
if it happens that you're a klutz , in that case god help you. The best advice you
already heard told , work with minute amounts not confined in a metal or glass
container. The real killer is static electricity. Static sensitive elctronics require the
wearing of a wrist strap to ground yourself when handling the boards. This is no
different when dry and the consequences are much dire.
A final thought , material safety data is in part a collection of anecdotes about
look what happened to me. All the families that manufacture and commercialize
pyrotechnic displays have had calamities. The history of explosives manufacture
by the most skilled and knowledgeable personnel is punctuated by colossal
catastrophes. Wether you acknowledge this or not there exists an unknowable
element of risk that cannot be accounted for in this , it can only be minimized.
Sidebar _
I hear tell that self contained single use devices comprised of a monolithic capacitor
bank firing an exploding film bridge to detonate a small secondary explosive booster
directly, may replace primary explosive blasting caps alltogether in an explosive
train. The cost of capacitors and blasting caps are comparable and this has been
the trend with military ordnance.
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quicksilver
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Interesting sidebar!
I actually should apologize for the clathrate issue. It was my fou' pax.
-What can really be said about TATP? I think your reference said it well. If you have to ask; you need more time. I for one just find TATP boring and
stupidly dangerous. I may be correct in saying that the same level of energy from electrostatic shock in m-joules that shoots high-end flash will
shoot TATP. That is a seriously low level. And for all this what does one get? It's not even a true primary for crying out loud.
I talk occasionally to a friend who had a serious accident when he was young. This guy still "blasts" around but he is quite careful...... he won't go
near that shit. He is the only fellow I know who had a REAL EOD background in the service. Combat Engineers in a grunt outfit. Just the thing for this
guy! And I respect what he says about things like this and he echoes what you just wrote.
If you understand,
Things are just as they are.
If you do not understand,
Things are just as they are.
... Zen
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gregxy
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The story that surprised me was the one about the guy that
was pressing explosive into a 22cal shell casing and had it
explode. Fragments of the casing went through a 1.6mm steel shield and into his body.
I would have expected the steel shield to be enough to stop such lite fragments, and how much material can you fit in a 22 casing a gram or so?
It would be a good idea to put a "sticky" at the start of energetic materials talking about all these dangers.
The problem with TATP is that it is sensitive, powerful enough to hurt you, easy to make and easy to get the ingredients and therefore a real danger
to the inexperienced.
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franklyn
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| Quote: | Originally posted by quicksilver
Interesting sidebar!
I actually should apologize for the clathrate issue. It was my fou' pax. |
Not at all . to paraphrase Forest Gump , a thread is like a box of chocolates
you never know what you're going to get.
The cap substitute idea seems pefectly reasonble to me. That something
similar to a fuse igniter can be made at low cost just like the flash in single
use disposable cameras.
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mbrown3391
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I'm not entirely sure what all you guys are talking about. Ive done several tests with TATP since i originally started this thread and have found that
it takes the force of a moderate hammer swing to set this stuff off by impact. I don't see how careful handling could result in an explosion,
especially if it has been prepared below 0 degrees C and the acid catylist has been completely neutralized. Furthermore, I've found that without some
sort of compression (usually a weight on top of the TATP), the acetone peroxide will not even explode, and instead burns into a fireball without any
type of sound. I've even placed a tiny amount of TATP in a test tube and heated in over a bunsen burner, which caused it to melt, not explode. Does
anyone have an actual story where they themselves or someone they know has had a close call with TATP?
On a side note, i recently tried dropping wet acetone peroxide into water around 95 degrees C. The powder floats on the surface and then begins to
melt. as the water cools, clearly defined crystals begin to appear on the surface. Ive read that larger crystals are more sensitive because they break
more easily, but wouldn't these crystals, being formed in water, include water in the crystal structure? Wouldn't that water reduce the sensitivity of
the TATP, maybe even making it impossible to detonate?
[Edited on 14-6-2007 by mbrown3391]
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franklyn
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I defer to your hands on experience I have never made nor handled this stuff
myself but I know this much. The killer is static electricity which only presents
a risk in very dry climates. Crystal size matters due to the Piezo electric effect.
Larger crystals under strain can develop a bias of several thousand volts which
will spark when fractured causing initiation , it's the reason water content acts
to desensitize. Organic peroxides are unstable and change when kept stored
affecting their sensitivity , and there is nothing you can do about that. Finally
there is the question of purity as to contaminants present in greater
concentration in some small portion of the whole that may sensitize that part
more than the rest. This is inevitable from handling and processing and a source
of unreliability unless your batch is pharmaceutical grade pure.
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quicksilver
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Damn, Franklyn you echo my thoughts quite closely on this issue & with such consistency! The killer -=IS=- static electricity !!! And if people
don't understand how insidious that can be they are taking a VERY severe chance with their eyes, fingers, hands, etc. The basic reason why it's often
reported to be "unstable" or whatever is that people just don't think about static until it's shot. There are SO MANY people who don't post here any
more because they lost a finger or any eye and thus we don't hear about it. I KNOW that as I have seen what over-confidence & lack of knowledge
can do. And honestly, I don't mean to put anyone down at all here but it's a very serious disservice to minimize in any manner just how fast one can
loose an eye. No one whats to hear pain stories so I won't go there but I really think that any caviler attitude with energetic materials is asking
for a tragedy. This board has had quite a few people who have gotten hurt & unfortunately they don't come back and say what happened. But I know
one of them and he said he was more shocked than anything else at first. Then he realized the seriousness of the injuries and was totally embarrassed
to say anything (& I will always keep his confidentiality) because he remembers saying often that he "knew how to handle" TATP. He made a
mistake, thats all. He wasn't a stupid person by any means.
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gregxy
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Another thing to keep in mind is how powerful these peroxides are. 200mg of HMTD (about the size of a pea) wrapped in aluminum foil and ignited with a
fuse will blast a crater an inch deep in a pine block. So if the same amount goes off in your hand you are going to loose fingers.
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phangue
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As to Muslims who kill innocent people, by blowing themselves up—oh, they’ll get all those pretty virgins, but to now avail. For just punishment,
they will wake up in the afterlife without a dick.
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mbrown3391
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Wet tatp acts almost like clay, such that i can compress it into blocks and allow it to dry. i usually divide it into 30 gram blocks and store each
block on a paper towel to dry, which usually takes 1-2 days. Then, to move it to the detonation site, i pick up the corners of the paper towel. So, is
there anyway that i could detonate it accidently with static if i never actually touch the TATP itself? also, by transporting it this way, wouldn't
the force of an accidental explosion not even reach my hand? And i again return to one of my orriginal points--TATP is extremely hard to detonate
without compression! 2 days ago, i took at least 100 grams of tatp and put it on a paper towel, then lit the paper towel. Previously i had only used
30g quanties with heavy objects ontop of them. Anyway, even in this extremely large quanitity, the acetone peroxide did not detonate, it simply
deflagrated into a fireball with almost no sound and no destruction to the surface it was detonated on.
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Rosco Bodine
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mbrown3391
i usually divide it into 30 gram blocks and store each block on a paper towel to dry, which usually takes 1-2 days. Then, to move it to the
detonation site, i pick up the corners of the paper towel. So, is there anyway that i could detonate it accidently with static if i never actually
touch the TATP itself? also, by transporting it this way, wouldn't the force of an accidental explosion not even reach my hand?
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The traumatic amputation would probably be two to four inches above the wrist where the hand used to be . The overpressure has about a 50/50 chance of
killing you outright , which would probably be the more merciful outcome of the coin toss .
| Quote: |
And i again return to one of my orriginal points--TATP is extremely hard to detonate without compression! |
Not if it is dry and there are more than a few grams of it .
| Quote: |
2 days ago, i took at least 100 grams of tatp and put it on a paper towel, then lit the paper towel. Previously i had only used 30g quanties with
heavy objects ontop of them. Anyway, even in this extremely large quanitity, the acetone peroxide did not detonate, it simply deflagrated into a
fireball with almost no sound and no destruction to the surface it was detonated on. |
Then it was wet , not dry .
@Moderator .
Before this thread gets put out of its misery ,
hopefully the OT part of the thread concerning clathrates can be retrieved , moved somewhere.
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Pyridinium
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mbrown3391
So, is there anyway that i could detonate it accidently with static if i never actually touch the TATP itself? also, by transporting it this way,
wouldn't the force of an accidental explosion not even reach my hand? |
I wish people would stop making this stuff. It jeopardizes legitimate chemists who happen to have those ingredients in their lab (which includes
nearly every chemist on earth). Soon the authorities start to think there's no legitimate purpose to have those things. I see it happening already.
And that bothers me.
All it takes is that one unexpected time, where you're tired or you make a mistake, or you discover something you didn't know about the stuff, and
BOOM. No more fingers.
The fact that you're moving TATP even a few feet adds a huge risk factor. Don't even tell me you make it in glass containers. Why not take up a
safer pastime like B.A.S.E. jumping?
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StevenRS
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I may be somewhat new to explosives, but this stuff scares me. I refuse to make it. It is a lot of people's first explosive, and this is really sad.
It, of all explosives, is probably the hardest to use somewhat safely. Its not like NI3 which tells you outright, "Don't mess with me"; AP tells
you,"I'm safe" then blows your hand off. Fun.
Answer to posted question: It depends on the moon phase, season, tilt of the earth, and alignment of the planets.
[Edited on 3-1-2008 by StevenRS]
[Edited on 4-1-2008 by StevenRS]
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Zinc
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I see that a lot of people on this forum don't like (And some eve hate!!) AP. But I don't understand why!! AP is an explosive like any other. Yes it
is very sensitive and dangerous and should be made very carefully and in small amounts. But if someone makes AP that doesn't automatically make him a
kewl or terrorist!!
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StevenRS
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Your right, it definitely doesn't. AP takes a lot of skill to use safely, even though it is easy to make, and most of all, it takes constant awareness
of its danger so you never start to become careless with it, even if you have made it 1000 times. The ability to do that marks experience in this
field.
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