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Marduk
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Now I know how to calculate oxygen balances.
Anhydrous dimeric MEKP (C8H16O4) has an oxygen balance of -181,61%.
Chemistry discussion in general is allowed in Germany, of course, but the discussion about the synthesis of explosive materials ist strictly
forbidden.
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PHILOU Zrealone
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Just for those interested:
CH3-CH2-CO-CH3 + H2O2 --> CH3-CH2-C(OH)(OOH)-CH3
2 CH3-CH2-C(OH)(OOH)-CH3 --> (CH3-CH2)(CH3)C(-O-O-)2C(CH3)(CH2-CH3) + 2 H2O
CDMEKP = cyclo dimethyl ethyl keton peroxyde = C8H16O4
Molar mass = 12*8 + 1*16 + 16*4 = 176 g/mol
C8H16O4 --> 2CO2 + 6C + 8 H2
We want complete burning so
6C + 6O2 --> 6CO2 (we miss 6 moles of O2)
8 H2 + 4 O2 --> 8H2O (we miss 4 moles of O2)
In total there is a lack of 10 moles O2 per mole CDMEKP what represents 10*32g = 320g O2
Then OB is easy to find out:
Negative because we have a lack of oxygen!
320g are missing to burn 176g --> 320/176 *100%= 181,81%
CDMEKP OB = - 181,81%
Now considering the brother CDAP, we all know that trimeric CTAP is better performing and has a higher VOD and is stabler than the dimeric form.And
the tetrameric form is even stabler...so why to bother with dimeric form of MEKP when there is probably a higher trimer and maybe tetramer that should
display better performances and stability?
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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CROpyrO
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is it posible to make MEKP more stable ? maybe added to sodium chlorate ? i heard that a god explosive is made when mixed with ammonium nitrate ( that
i don't have  ) please help me . can somebody tell exactly how sensitive it is
!? thanks
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KABOOOM(pyrojustforfun)
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madscientist u said (first post of the subject) the anhydrous dimeric is more powerful than the dimeric hydroperoxide. how can it be so, when the
further has one more peroxide groop and higher OB too. did u mean cyclic dimer by anhydrous dimeric? why the file on library doesn't mention it?
OB of the isomers:
HOOC(C<sub>2</sub>H<sub>5</sub> (CH<sub>3</sub>OOH >
HOOC(C<sub>2</sub>H<sub>5</sub>(CH<sub>3</sub>OOC(C<sub>2</sub>H<sub>5</sub>(CH<sub>3</sub>OOH ><br>
HOO(C(C<sub>2</sub>H<sub>5</sub>(CH<sub>3</sub>OO)<sub>2</sub>C(C<sub>2</sub>H<sub>5</sub>(CH<sub>3</sub>OOH >
HOO(C(C<sub>2</sub>H<sub>5</sub>(CH<sub>3</sub>OO)<sub>3</sub>C(C<sub>2</sub>H<sub>5</sub>(CH<sub>3</sub>OOH<br> >
HOO(C(C<sub>2</sub>H<sub>5</sub>(CH<sub>3</sub>OO)<sub>4</sub>C(C<sub>2</sub>H<sub>5</sub>(CH<sub>3</sub>OOH >
HOO(C(C<sub>2</sub>H<sub>5</sub>(CH<sub>3</sub>OO)<sub>5</sub>C(C<sub>2</sub>H<sub>5</sub>(CH<sub>3</sub>OOH<br> >
(-C(C<sub>2</sub>H<sub>5</sub>(CH<sub>3</sub>OO-)<sub>3</sub> =
(-C(C<sub>2</sub>H<sub>5</sub>(CH<sub>3</sub>OO-)<sub>2</sub>
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shadeT
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MEKP and IP
wow , i'm suprised with MEKP stability , i made isopropyl peroxide too but it explodes with touch of a butan/propane flame , the MEKP needs a
little more time to ignite , but the power of MEKP is much more smaller than the power of isopropyl peroxide , a wooden stick dipped in IP detonates
with a loud crack and blows the stick into pieces , the MEKP in the same amount makes jest a small poof and does nothing to the stick . both of the
explosives have their advantages and disadvantages . if you want something more stable and not very powerfull make MEKP , if you want something
powerfull but more sensitive ( i don't think you wan't that so much
) than the IP is the thing for you ... anyway , they are peroxides and people should be extremly careful with all explosive peroxides !!!
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shadeT
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what kind of plastic is MEKP going to dissolve ?
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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try again
I recall reading of MEKP that the freshly made material seems weaker than what you get if you allow it to stand in open air for a while. I think there
may be some water or (more likely) plain MEK dissolved in the fresh MEKP, which evaporates after a while, leaving you with purer, more explosive MEKP.
In any case a stick with its tip soaked in MEKP should give a good bang when ignited.
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ThuGsta785
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I think your right about MEK being disovled in the MEKP. I have MEKP that has been in a closed container for almost 2 months, and I open it every now
and then to release the pressure, and it smells like MEK. I have stuck a stick in it about a week ago, and touched it with a flame, and it broke the
stick into a bunch of splinters with a loud crack!
So, yes there is probably with out a doubt MEK disolved in the MEKP which makes it not very flame sensative until most of the MEK has evaporated out
like you said. This is my first post at this forum, but I usualy post at xinventions forum.
http://www.geocities.com/thugsta785/Explosives.html 
-Thugsta
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shadeT
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what are the chances of MEKP detonation while transporting it with a bike ????? i have some MEKP left and i need to get rid of it . i'm meaning
to detonate it somewhere where is no people , i live in a preety big place so i have to ride about 1-2 km to get to a nice place .
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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If you just want to get rid of it, dissolve it in MEK, xylene, or whatever and then set it on fire or dispose of it down the drain (poor
environment!). That should let you dispose of it non-explosively.
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leopard
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MEKP question
I made MEKP for my first time using the instructions in this thread. 50ml of 25% h2o2, 25ml of MEK, 5ml of 93% H2SO4 keeping everything below 5 deg.C
at all times. It formed within 2 hours and I extracted 23ml of slightly yellow (my H2SO4 is brown) MEKP with an eye dropper. I was very satisfied with
everything but then I proceeded to neutralize the acid by putting the MEKP into 200ml of solution of baking soda. I got lots of thick white foam
indicating things were working fine. I let this mix sit overnight and in the morning the MEKP was at the bottom of the mix. I carefully extracted
every drop of it with an eye dropper and now only have 12ml ?? Is this loss to be expected? That is my question, otherwise I am very satisfied with
the method.
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ThuGsta785
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MEKP lose
Since you made such a small amount, i would say you lost a good 10 mL when seperating the MEKP from the left over by products, and when neutralizing
it. suggestions for when making small amounts is to use the narrowest jar you can find. This will have a smaller amount of MEKP touching the other
unwanted liquid, so you wont lose as much when seperating.
http://www.geocities.com/thugsta785/Explosives.html
-Thugsta
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froot
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A while ago i made a batch of MEKP and in the process I messed a little and wiped it up with some tissue. Being adventurous and all I lit this tissue.
It burned violently but in a controlled manner. It occured to me that this could be a potential rocket fuel, soaked in tissue or something similar
with a posative OB it is mouldable and easy! I could be onto something here or am I making a pipe bomb?
We salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring those who remove themselves from it.
Of necessity, this honor is generally bestowed posthumously. - www.darwinawards.com |
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Haggis
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I have some time, and it's about MEKP, so I'll post a mishap that I had with the substance.
A while ago, I prepared a small shaped charge with AN/MEKP just for fun. Well, while I was leaning over to light the fuse on a windy country road, a
standoff leg collapsed, spilling MEKP in a fist sized amount onto my knee/thigh. Normally, when a sensitive and toxic explosive is spilled on your
leg, one would be worried. I was pissed because I wasted a bunch of MEKP. I dropped the blasting cap in the puddle of liquid and it went off with a
pleasant bang. I was with a friend there, and since taking off my pants in front of him would be an uncomfortable situation, I left my pants on, with
the soaked MEKP fabric being held against my leg. Then, I suppose eating a package of crackers there couldn't have helped much. An hour later,
I noticed that, when burping, I was greeted by the wonderful smell/taste combination of MEKP. It was in my system. Then, I started having slight
abdominal pains and my glands in my neck started hurting, along with slight pain in my right temple. I got online, and conversed with a senior member
here, who advised me to take as many anti-oxidants as possible. Down to the medicine cabinet. 2 vitamin E pills and 6 vitamin C pills were taken.
An hour after the glands stopped hurting. Then, by the next morning, the temple was fine again. However, I had abdominal pains for 3 days. More
serious in the morning and when I hadn't eaten lately. Those finally ceased. I am wondering what kind of damage have been brought upon my
kidneys, as an online chemicals safety sheet lists MEKP as a 'tumorigen'. Fun! I guess I'll have to wait a few years before I find
out what exactly the effects were. I have since lost my interest in MEKP.
Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds.
<b> <a href=\"http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xEE41A2B1\">PGP Key</a> </b> 0C0A 7486 B97F
92EE AE50 A98C A4F3 087E 8CE9 A782 |
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Quantum
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You should have taken your pants off; just run off into the woods or tell him to turn around. The MSDS for MEKP is a bit scary.
May act as a tumorigen. May act as a systemic poison. Harmful by ingestion, inhalation and through skin contact. Very destructive of mucous
membranes. Severe irritant. Lachrymator.
Toxicity data
(The meaning of any abbreviations which appear in this section is given here.)
ORL-HMN TDLO 480 mg kg-1
ORL-RAT LD50 484 mg kg-1
IHL-RAT LC50 200 ppm/4h.
I hope you don't suffer any long term effects, Haggis.
MEKP: Fairly safe explosive in the sort run yet a toxic chemical in the long run; you just can't win!
What if, what is isn\'t true?
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Quantum
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Chewyguy: We don't talk about using explosives here. We deal only with making them or learning about the chemistry behind them.
What if, what is isn\'t true?
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chemoleo
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Good thing you took the vit. C. Do you have an estimate of how much /how many ml of MEPK you got on your trousers? Then, assume that 10% got taken up
via your skin.
If you assume that one molecule of MEKP reacts with 1 of Vit C, you probably have a large excess of Vit C - which is good.
Also, there are mechanisms inside cells that destroy the peroxy bonds. Infact, the superoxide radical is made in mitochondria every day and night of
your life. I doubt you will get cancer from it, as most carcinogens act during chronic prolonged exposure, and not by a single event like this. So
clearly the best is to not to repeat this, and keep your hands off adsorbable peroxides! Keep eating Vit C, this is the best you can do.
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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Haggis
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Going from the size of the container, and the size of the spill on my leg, I would say it was about 35ml. This could be assumed that, round about,
3.5ml discovered a pathway into my skin.
The molecular masses of MEKP and Vitamin C are 176.25 and 176.12, respectively. This means that the 3.5 ml translates into2.94 grams and .017 mol,
and the 6 grams of ascorbic acid translate into .034 mol. Technically, all the MEKP should be counteracted by the Vitamin C. My only worries are the
damage received from the time of contact to the time when the Vitamin C started taking effect. This time is around 2.5 to 3.5 hours. I still have
not figured out exactly what it did to me, but I feel healthy and happy now, and there is no noticable ill effects.
[Edited on 11-3-2004 by Haggis]
Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds.
<b> <a href=\"http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xEE41A2B1\">PGP Key</a> </b> 0C0A 7486 B97F
92EE AE50 A98C A4F3 087E 8CE9 A782 |
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Sir Dudalot
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I used 64mL MEK, 40mL ~30% H2O2, and probably 2mL HCl (didn't measure). After letting it sit for 24 hours there was a clear liquid on top,
presumably MEKP, and a very cloudy lower layer. I thought I remembered reading that someone had added salt to get the two layers to seperate more so
I added around 2g of salt. I confirmed that the top layer was MEKP with a quick burn test on a little soaked on some paper then seperated the layers
(seperatory funnel) and added the top layer to 200mL sodium bicarbonate solution. This is where it gets funky. I had about 55mL of MEKP before I
added it to the sodium bicarbonate solution but when I put it in it wouldn't seperate out. Around 25mL floated on top (and it was now milky
instead of clear like it was previously) and the rest was suspended in the solution. Are the densities really that similiar? MEKP has a density of
.86 g/mL...right?
BTW, I hope I'm not breaking any of the forum rules seeing as this is my first post but if I am please let me know for future reference.
<a href=\"http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/dudalot\">Videos and a few procedures.</a>
\"Dirt is too valuable to just throw away.\" -my dad, and he was serious.
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madscientist
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The antioxidants were there to protect your body from damaging free radicals (which peroxides are notorious for producing).
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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Axt
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Ive included movies <a href="http://www.geocities.com/roguemovies5/index.html">here</a> of what MEKP videos I had, the first vid shows
various compositions sitting on a 2mm mild steel plate, all were initiated with commercial #8 dets for consistancy in 60ml containers, the shots were
as follows -
<b>Shot 1</b>: Pure MEKP, plate dent = 26mm
<b>Shot 2</b>: AN/MEKP 9:1, oxygen balanced mix, lightly pressed, hole blown through plate!.
<b>Shot 3</b>: AN/MEKP (40% catalyst) 9:1, MEKP assumed to be in 60% DMP, Slightly Oxygen rich, lightly pressed, plate dent = 25mm
<b>Shot 4</b>: MEKP/NM 1:1 (volume), NM and MEKP seem miscible and compatible, though it failed to detonate, deflagration of MEKP after
initiation.
<b>Shot 5</b>: Powergel Magnum 365, commercial explosive used for comparison purposes, known VOD of 4300m/s and effective energy 118%,
bulk effective energy 181% (of ANFO). Plate dent = 31mm
<center><img src="http://www.sciencemadness.org/scipics/axt/mekpdenthole.jpg"></center>
The second movie shows an unconfined ignition, drop test of MEKP and a fuse ignited charge.
The drop test figures were as follows (3kg weight) -
MEKP (soaked in cotton): 0-5cm (same as AP!)
AN/MEKP 9:1: >100cm (out of range!)
AN/MEKP looks like the big winner. Performing far better and far less sensitive then pure MEKP, even out classing the commercial explosive, i'll leave
you to draw your own conclusions in reference the the known VOD and energy figures. It did surprise me that the AN based comps performed so well
considering the small size and minimal confinement.
<center><img src="http://www.sciencemadness.org/scipics/axt/bobom.jpg"></center>
[Edited on 19-4-2004 by Axt]
[Edited on 9-12-2005 by Axt]
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froot
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I produced MEKP a few months ago and i'ts been lying around ever since using it for the toothpick party trick every now and then. It seems to be
storage stable but now after so long I handle it with the greatest care. As an indication of it's sensitivity I shot about half a pen cap full in
Al foil with a pellet gun. It detonated, and suprisingly powerful. That was about 1,5ml of MEKP.
I've attempted to attach a picture and if you can see it you'll see whats left of a cardboard beer crate. On the crate at the bottom is a
replica of the culprit from Al foil with the MEKP inside. It was hanging about an inch from the cardboard. There's an egg on the right as a size
reference.
I thought I'd share this to help show how lethal even MEKP can be. Imagine that was your hand. Please be careful.
We salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring those who remove themselves from it.
Of necessity, this honor is generally bestowed posthumously. - www.darwinawards.com |
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Mickhael
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My two cents on MEKP
Ok, just a couple things I have read up on MEKP.
#1 MEKP (ADMEKP) does not need to be deacidified according to a knowledgable person on the E&W forum, I haven't tested this out, but he made
a good case of how leaving the acid reactive actually helped the explosive.
#2 The making of ADMEKP + TAP at the same time seems to be the simplest and most powerful/safe explosive peroxide I have heard of so far, it remains
in complete liquid form if left to sit in the 0 to 10 degree overnight.
#3 MEKP needs to be confined or at least obsorbed into something, and then ignited or struck for any detonation to occur.
Thats all for now...hope I'm not repeating to much that everyone already knows, I'm new to this forum, however I have read through the
E&W forum for monthes now, gleaning information.
[Edited on 18-11-2004 by Mickhael]
[Edited on 18-11-2004 by Mickhael]
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AngelEyes
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Isopropyl peroxide
What is this exactly?
It was referred to in an earlier post but all I can find on google are references to Isopropyl <i>ether</i> peroxide.
Is this material something that can be made form Isopropyl alcohol? Maybe the same acid / H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> bath that
one might use for MEK et al?
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Mickhael
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Question on peroxides
Ok, just out of curiousity, and since i can't seem to find the info anywhere, what are the dangers/safe mixes of peroxides? I have heard MEKP+AP
is workable, but since there are so many types, I was wondering what the chemical mixablity of the others together is? Like MEKP+IP?...among others,
does anyone have experience with that?
Ps: Yes I have searched and read through alot of info...and unless i'm completely blind or haven't searched enough, theres not many answers
out there...as of yet.
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