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Melgar
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Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  | | Is it OK to forget about the carcinogenicity of a compound as long people don't have problems with it for 10-20 years? |
Phenol is a known carcinogen. Dinitrophenol, there have been no studies linking it to cancer. I'm assuming you're not naive enough to think
that any chemical with a phenol moiety is carcinogenic.
Assuming kidneys are functioning normally, total elimination appears to occur 3-4 days later. 2,4-DNP is an acute toxin much more than a chronic one,
although to prevent chronic toxicity anyway, the recommendation is that it be taken for, at most 2-3 weeks, and then not taken afterwards for at least
as long as it was taken beforehand.
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Tsjerk
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Melgar; I'm not naive enough to think that any chemical with a phenol moiety is carcinogenic. I am a bit disappointed that you take me for being
stupid though... ( I would have gone for a link to paracetamol in this case btw)
Maybe 2,4-DNP is not carcinogenic by itself, but do you know what that 1-3 percent of impurities is? (Yes, even the Sigma stuff has 1-3 percent of
stuff). My guess is that the impurities are isomers, such as mono-nitrophenols, other di-nitrophenols, trinitrophenol etc. Maybe benzenes,
nitrobenzenes, maybe some nitroso-compounds, God knows what is in there...
Phenol is not a known carcinogene...
[Edited on 24-5-2016 by Tsjerk]
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Tsjerk
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| Quote: Originally posted by Melgar | | the recommendation is that it be taken for, at most 2-3 weeks, and then not taken afterwards for at least as long as it was taken beforehand.
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Could you tell me who recommends this?
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Melgar
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| Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk | Melgar; I'm not naive enough to think that any chemical with a phenol moiety is carcinogenic. I am a bit disappointed that you take me for being
stupid though... ( I would have gone for a link to paracetamol in this case btw)
Maybe 2,4-DNP is not carcinogenic by itself, but do you know what that 1-3 percent of impurities is? (Yes, even the Sigma stuff has 1-3 percent of
stuff). My guess is that the impurities are isomers, such as mono-nitrophenols, other di-nitrophenols, trinitrophenol etc. Maybe benzenes,
nitrobenzenes, maybe some nitroso-compounds, God knows what is in there... |
None of the nitrophenols are carcinogenic. Benzene and nitrobenzene are, but you probably put more benzene in your body when you smell gasoline than
would be in 500 mg of Sigma-Aldrich's 2,4-DNP.
| Quote: | Phenol is not a known carcinogene...
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Oh right, it's just a reproductive toxin. Guess that gets us males off the hook.
| Quote: | | Could you tell me who recommends this? |
Experienced bodybuilders on bodybuilding forums. There haven't been proper clinical trials in close to a century, ok? Doctors have given it to their
patients since then, off-label, and there have been a handful of deaths due to hyperthermia from overdose.
Also, reading through a list of 2,4-DNP scare stories from websites recommending that people NOT use it for weight loss, every single one was a case
of hyperthermia from overdose. That is the only mode of toxicity that's been documented.
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Tsjerk
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So the take-home message of this thread is that you will probably not die as long as you don't take an overdose, but that the non-carcinogenic
properties of this compound and its impurities are mostly confirmed by bodybuilders who have not taken a overdose.
Edit: or am I wrong here somewhere?
[Edited on 26-5-2016 by Tsjerk]
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Polysialate
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For those concerned with small amounts of impurities, DNP can be slowly recrystallized from 95% ethanol to give relatively large, pure crystals (if
done slowly enough).
5g DNP dissolves in 45 mL 95% EtOH at 75°C (some stirring required), and can then be slowly cooled down to -10 °C for >70% yield of pretty darn
pure crystal. Sometimes it doesn't nucleate readily, so keeping a seed (or a couple) on hand and seeding it around 65 °C is advisable for best
results.
EDIT: And while not precisely forum-relevant, DNP is not quite the miracle-drug people might think. Sure it increases metabolism, but IME, appetite
increases along with it, so you end up needing the same amount of willpower to lose weight with DNP that you would otherwise.
[Edited on 5-25-2016 by Polysialate]
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Melgar
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| Quote: Originally posted by Polysialate | And while not precisely forum-relevant, DNP is not quite the miracle-drug people might think. Sure it increases metabolism, but IME, appetite
increases along with it, so you end up needing the same amount of willpower to lose weight with DNP that you would otherwise.
[Edited on 5-25-2016 by Polysialate] |
If you dose on the high side, you're often distracted enough with thirst that you don't actually feel that hungry. Sure there's the occasional
instance where you eat an entire carton of ice cream in one sitting, but if you've figured your dose such that you've doubled your metabolism, that
hardly matters. Personally, I find the substance quite pleasant in the winter and a horrible ordeal in the summer. Convenient, because I tend to get
a lot more activity in the summer anyway, so I don't need drugs to lose weight.
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Melgar
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| Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk | So the take-home message of this thread is that you will probably not die as long as you don't take an overdose, but that the non-carcinogenic
properties of this compound and its impurities are mostly confirmed by bodybuilders who have not taken a overdose.
Edit: or am I wrong here somewhere?
[Edited on 25-5-2016 by Tsjerk] |
Also, declassified USSR reports about the effects of 2,4-DNP on preventing hyperthermia in troops stationed in cold climates. The FDA was created in
response to deaths (from hyperthermia in the case of DNP) from various unregulated medications, and considering its approach in the past, I doubt the
FDA will revisiting the stuff any time soon.
Another problem with DNP is that it doesn't work as well on morbidly obese people, because their surface area is a lot lower per unit volume, at least
compared to healthier people, and you need surface area to get rid of heat. This means heavier people overheat more easily, DNP or not.
It's uses are mainly for people who need to drop a lot of fat quickly, and not so much as part of a healthy lifestyle.
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Polysialate
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| Quote: Originally posted by Melgar |
If you dose on the high side, you're often distracted enough with thirst that you don't actually feel that hungry. Sure there's the occasional
instance where you eat an entire carton of ice cream in one sitting, but if you've figured your dose such that you've doubled your metabolism, that
hardly matters. Personally, I find the substance quite pleasant in the winter and a horrible ordeal in the summer. Convenient, because I tend to get
a lot more activity in the summer anyway, so I don't need drugs to lose weight. |
Ah, that would explain it. I never took more than 300mg/day for fear of side effects (some forum posts mentioned peripheral neuropathy). Though even
in winter I was uncomfortably hot whenever I wasn't home (I kept my apartment at 55°F, but even my workplace felt hot at 68°F).
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Melgar
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| Quote: Originally posted by Polysialate | | Quote: Originally posted by Melgar |
If you dose on the high side, you're often distracted enough with thirst that you don't actually feel that hungry. Sure there's the occasional
instance where you eat an entire carton of ice cream in one sitting, but if you've figured your dose such that you've doubled your metabolism, that
hardly matters. Personally, I find the substance quite pleasant in the winter and a horrible ordeal in the summer. Convenient, because I tend to get
a lot more activity in the summer anyway, so I don't need drugs to lose weight. |
Ah, that would explain it. I never took more than 300mg/day for fear of side effects (some forum posts mentioned peripheral neuropathy). Though even
in winter I was uncomfortably hot whenever I wasn't home (I kept my apartment at 55°F, but even my workplace felt hot at 68°F).
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Actually, now that I think back on it (this was several years ago), I would avoid eating very much, because large meals would make me sweat buckets.
I think that's because it ends up being concentrated in your intestinal tract if you take it orally, which would make sense. I think the highest
dose I ever took was about 800 mg at maybe 230 pounds, at which point I was drinking water constantly. At that dose, I'd steam up the windows on the
passenger side whenever I'd get in someone's car in the winter, and if I ever sat down for more than a few minutes, I'd leave a damp spot behind. I
honestly didn't even need to lose weight that badly, I just was really curious about what its effects were like.
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Polysialate
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| Quote: Originally posted by Melgar |
I think that's because it ends up being concentrated in your intestinal tract if you take it orally, which would make sense. |
Shouldn't this depend on the form you were taking? IE, the sodium salt should be decently soluble and fast-absorbing, while large particles/crystals
of the protonated phenol would be slow to dissolve/absorb? My route of admin involved making a supersaturated aqueous solution by pouring DNP
dissolved in ethanol into a large volume of water, then consuming it immediately (in hopes of maximizing bioavailability/uptake).
| Quote: Originally posted by Melgar | | I honestly didn't even need to lose weight that badly, I just was really curious about what its effects were like. |
Ditto. I though "hey if there was a 'magic cutting pill' why not try it out?"
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Tsjerk
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| Quote: Originally posted by Polysialate |
Shouldn't this depend on the form you were taking? IE, the sodium salt should be decently soluble and fast-absorbing, while large particles/crystals
of the protonated phenol would be slow to dissolve/absorb? My route of admin involved making a supersaturated aqueous solution by pouring DNP
dissolved in ethanol into a large volume of water, then consuming it immediately (in hopes of maximizing bioavailability/uptake).
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No, whether or not the form, it will be transformed to the protonated phenol in minutes in the stomach as the pH is 1-3 there anyway.
[Edited on 1-6-2016 by Tsjerk]
[Edited on 1-6-2016 by Tsjerk]
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