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quicksilver
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As I remember it the "PCP period" was about the mid 70's though the mid 80's: I remember that time quite well. The low cost of the drug made it a VERY
prominent thing is inner city drug abuse areas and was sold by (mostly) lower-level street dealers, especially high numbers of "gang-types" and
middle-men small weight dealers. It had a very BAD rep from the start. It was often sold infused on mint leaves and smoked. At a street dealer level
it was mostly sold on a liquid level as there it could be adulterated and pathetic profits made from the sale.
Most of the drug dealers who were making money stayed away from it as the margin was low; risk just as high and it was basically seen as an "ugly"
drug by those who used drugs.
I believe that it put itself out of common usage. The people who synthesized it only needed one mistaken ingestion to never want to work with it
again. The groups who sought entertainment from hallucinogens shied away as it had such a strong "out of body" feel that the user didn't "feel good or
enlightened": they felt like they simply couldn't think.
It was basically a very cheap inner city drug that was likened to sniffing glue, etc. The sales were generally on the level of a dollar per mint-joint
& a small vial of whatever was $20; there was no money there to attract the ruthless.
I was a college-kid at the time and had NO interest in it even as experimentation for a single experience as i continually saw really bad results from
it's use on almost every occasion! To reiterate; it really put itself out of business. If available today, I actually doubt it could be sold to the
drug using public.
It appeared all over the nation due to it's low cost. It obviously was an easy synthesis. In the Inner city and some rural areas; it's the cheap shit
that reigns as drug sales. Look at crack (freebase) which was a $5 high, PCP ($1), Meth, which also sells for a VERY small amount in various forms.
And if anyone is getting close to the big Six-Oh and remembers the 1960's there was the "nickle bags" of heroin. There was always something to fill
the gap of the no-money drug users.
This was the reason I saw the TV show "Breaking Bad" as SO essentially evil and destructive. It viewed chemistry in a very ugly light, it's "stars"
were the idiot and the selfish, unthinking & grotesquely immature " teacher". And it's message was that chemistry at home equals narcotics;
period. no one would practice chemistry outside of a professional setting for any reason other than to make drugs.
The concept of chemophobia, Was more deeply elicited by that show alone, than several major incidents in life. It piped it's fear and
loathing into (perhaps) millions of homes each week.
PCP was plenty ugly alright - perhaps one of the ugliest things to come along in my memory; but I believe there will always be something to fill that
void of low-level street sales. Gang members were entranced by the money made from Crack and will never give that up. Even if Crack become passe',
those same "people" will find another cheap money maker from somewhere.
A person who will blindly shoot up a occupied home risking the life of an infant will never consider what harm they do. That's exactly why I believe
that there really ARE some who should be kept from society and perhaps on a totally permanent basis. I simply don't buy the line that a 16yr old
doesn't know what death is and should be given another chance when he is in the prime of his life.
[Edited on 27-11-2010 by quicksilver]
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entropy51
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Quote: Originally posted by SelfStarter  | Entropy, your assertions about there being a rash of PCP related violence is ridiculous. Drugs don't make people violent. Drugs do not have that
capability.
I suggest you read this book and watch this video as they both come from an author who unlike you, has done a lot of RESEARCH on the subject.
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You know zilch about my research, son. You think I learned everything I know on the net, like you
apparently did?
I was treating these poor devils freaked out on PCP (and all the other crap you guys idolize) in big city emergency rooms before you were born.
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entropy51
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No it didn't, at least not in the two large east coast
cities where I've lived.
It was displaced by crack cocaine,
As the number of ER cases of whacked out PCP users went down, the number of cases of crack heads went up. It was strikingly obvious to those of us
looking at the tox screens.
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quicksilver
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I really do understand your passion but actually that is what I wrote in my post (contextually): that it was displaced by Crack.
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IrC
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Entropy you are always so spot on. I have to say I also agree with a point Quicksilver made about that damn show. My best friend is a state trooper
who loves that show. We have arguments about it often. Hell he even kept bugging me to watch so I could see his LEO fascination with it. I did so he
would shut up about it and leave me alone. On that subject at least, as I said he is my best friend in everything else. After several episodes I
explained to him just what is being said here as far as how the show is instilling a public fear mindset towards people like me. He said he sees my
point but he still loves the show. Of course he also never misses that biker show whatever the name of it is I forget. Hate it. Hate them both. They
are destroying like a thousand cuts a day my love of creating by removing one by one every damn thing we need to build or create with.
Oh yeah I forgot QS but I agree, crack is what did it starting in the early 80's.
[Edited on 11-28-2010 by IrC]
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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quicksilver
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I think it might be important for us to understand the thinking of many law enforcement types. I know that thinking quite well for many of my family
(& some friends also) have been involved.
Many (not all of course) of the people drawn to law enforcement are people of view the world in harsh black and whites; & while there certainly IS
Good & Evil, etc - there are some areas of gray as many of us know.
Many of those personalities are looking for a sound structure to their lives and the world around them. They may have seen or experienced things early
on that made them very uncomfortable with a lack or Structure; of order to the way people behaved. This makes some people seek out structure in a very
defined way. It's similar to career military folks.
It's not a shortcoming; it's simply a means to find order in a world that has very little [justice or order].
Why should a baby suffer either by the hand of man or through disease? Why should any innocent receive injustice? These are unanswerable questions and
in observing them early in life; they create a feeling of discord, anxiety, anger, and fear. That is a very natural reaction. So a person in that
position may seek out order and therefore a delineated "law" or set of rules become VERY attractive because they give comfort in a very uncomfortable
world.
Others may seek out Religion for somewhat similar reasons. This is NOT a value judgment but simply my opinion.
Then there is a reinforcement of this as the individual observes the injustices time and again. Certain things happen at that point and some people
harden their personal philosophy of world view, while others become very tired of the pain, discord, & lack of balance.
Take a moment and find out what professions have the greatest suicide rates. While the results are not startling; they are indicative of a person
caught in a setting where they yearn for balance.
That may be one of the tragic flaws of the human condition: the desire to set things right.
[Edited on 30-11-2010 by quicksilver]
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MagicJigPipe
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| Quote: |
and all the other crap you guys idolize
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Okay entropy, although I disagree with you often I still, most of the time, see your arguments as rationally coherent and I respect that.
However, things like this just rub me the wrong way. It seems like you are saying anyone who doesn't have your hardcore, anti-drug view somehow
"idolizes" PCP or any other drug for that matter.
I do not idolize drugs. I do not use illegal drugs. I despise most drugs just because I don't like the way they make me feel (especially alcohol).
How can you imply that I (if I am, in fact, part of "you guys") idolize drugs?
I CAN say, for example, that some might be able to use illegal drugs without doing harm to themselves or others. Rationally, I believe that is a
sound argument. But I feel that your anti-drug "passion" sometimes precedes your rationallity. You might dismiss this as not true, perhaps because
you don't want it to be, although it certainly is--it just has yet to be quantified in a reliable way.
Long story short: I think your emotional experiences with drugs cause you to respond irrationally without later admitting that the response was,
indeed, irrational.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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entropy51
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Since you had a bad bump on the head, I'll repeat it one more time, slowly, so that you might finally understand:
| Quote: Originally posted by entropy51 | | Frankly I couldn't care less if everyone sits around schnockered out of his mind. But the drugs came before the laws. And the drugs are the reason
that chemicals are watched. |
You Millenials sure are touchy.
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madscientist
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There's a lot of talk that SM is overly tolerant of drug related topics. I suggest that these individuals take a gander at some of the more popular
drug forums, and see what they have to say about us. It's usually along the lines of "what a bunch of uptight assholes."
On that note, I can't recall PCP ever being mentioned in a positive light here.
IrC: The National Institute on Drug Abuse is not what I'd consider credible. They exist solely to justify the CSA. I will not debate the unhealthiness
of PCP - but please do cite more objective sources.
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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IrC
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You probably have a point M.S.. However I am not sure what sources out there you can trust anymore, especially in this internet age. Honestly I just
searched the subject and used one of the 'more respectable looking' sources. If you have some ideas of sources post it and I will do a little looking
around at what they have for information. All that aside I do have years of stories from many people which justify the negative light on PCP, yet as
you mention posting here requires some solid and accurate sources. Just hard to tell reading online when they have respectable sounding credentials if
in fact they are a source worth quoting.
My bad.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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Mister Junk Pile
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Well, IrC, it might be correct information, but it's like making arguments for gun control and quoting the Brady Center. Technically there is nothing
wrong with it, I suppose, but it lends more credibility to the argument to use more "unbiased" sources.
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IrC
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| Quote: Originally posted by Mister Junk Pile | | Well, IrC, it might be correct information, but it's like making arguments for gun control and quoting the Brady Center.
Technically there is nothing wrong with it, I suppose, but it lends more credibility to the argument to use more "unbiased" sources.
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Actually you are doing precisely the same thing Mr Pile. You are claiming the source is biased with no evidence to prove it. Cite your source proving
my source is biased. Then cite your source proving your source of relative bias information is itself credible. I mean not biased. I could have used
this on M.S. but the difference is in my eyes He has standing and therefore credibility. I could be 'biased' however.
Yet I find I must draw the line with your post. Look carefully at what you just said. Utterly meaningless. You are saying Edison's light bulb may be
good on paper but it can never produce light unless Edison has a degree on paper proving his 'credibility' to the world. Truth contains it's own
intrinsic credibility with neutral bias and therefore needs no paperwork to go with it. Or anyone's opinion.
Have you found a reliable list online which proves the relative bias of all information sources so one can avoid all the 'bad places', and if so
provide the URL so I can determine whether or not it is biased or unbiased itself before I use it.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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Mister Junk Pile
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How the hell did you draw such strange conclusions from my post? I'd say a source is biased when they have an agenda other than the simple
dissemination of information. I don't feel any sources are needed to determine something that is "common knowledge". For example, I don't need to
give you sources when I say a horse is a mammal in an informal setting.
Seriously, what was with that reply? I'm doing exactly the same thing? What??
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IrC
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How the hell did you draw such strange conclusions from my post?
Simple. Because you made your post. You come in here as a 'newbie' of only 34 posts, lecturing me about the credibility of my information. Who the
hell are you? You made the same mistake MS did. I was just being nice to him but I feel I do not need to with you. MS failed to show any evidence for
the 'bias' he claims in my source. Neither did you and you were not in the conversation. http://www.nida.nih.gov/researchers.html
My source. Staffed with doctors and scientists. Before you wish to call them biased you should prove it. MS only said they 'serve' the 'CSA' with no
further information. What CSA?
Community Supported Agriculture?
CSA International?
Casting Society of America?
www.csa.com/?
Certified Senior Advisor?
child support agency?
csa airlines? OK, it must be the
canadian space agency! at least science is in there somewhere.
Your point involves the Brady Center. Myself I am for guns, but if I wanted to hear an opposing view I do not see why the words of a crime victim who
actually was shot would be a poor source. If we cannot listen to the words of someone who got shot about gun control then just exactly what would be a
credible source for it? Some flaming liberal weenie who has never even held a gun? I have A - been shot at more than once, and B - been shot myself.
Yet I believe we should own guns to defend ourselves. Do points A and B show I should also be considered a 'biased' source either for or against gun
control?
My point being if you feel you have the right to lecture me then prove it.
[Edited on 12-6-2010 by IrC]
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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InFormation
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| Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver | This was the reason I saw the TV show "Breaking Bad" as SO essentially evil and destructive. It viewed chemistry in a very ugly light, it's "stars"
were the idiot and the selfish, unthinking & grotesquely immature " teacher". And it's message was that chemistry at home equals narcotics;
period. no one would practice chemistry outside of a professional setting for any reason other than to make drugs.
The concept of chemophobia, Was more deeply elicited by that show alone, than several major incidents in life. It piped it's fear and
loathing into (perhaps) millions of homes each week. |
... in glorious 1080p high definition.
Look at the bright side. At least you can sit back and chuckle to yourself that the media-biased chemophobia we have all grown to love and adore (sic)
was adapted into a high budget enterprise with award winning actors, in quality fit for Blu-Ray, and went on to win six (6) Emmy
Awards.
No, seriously, laugh at the gullible people that actually thought chemistry was just for drugs and bombs after watching that show; only to walk off
and cook dinner on Teflon coated pans with gas hotplates, and take an antacid tablet for indigestion.
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Sedit
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| Quote: | | Quote: Originally posted by IrC | How the hell did you draw such strange conclusions from my post?
Simple. Because you made your post. You come in here as a 'newbie' of only 34 posts, lecturing me about the credibility of my information. Who the
hell are you?
|
Seriously? You don't know who the hell he is? Please IrC Think about that for perhaps a minute or two and tell me if this person has ONLY 30 some post
or if hes perhaps someone that has much time put into this forum.... If you still feel hes a new commer after much thought has been put into it
then....well ok.... |
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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quicksilver
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And real talent went broke.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d49m6G9vOrI
One good reason to pay less and less attention to actors, post-modern impressionists, & what we call music today.
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UnintentionalChaos
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| Quote: | | Quote: Originally posted by Sedit | | Quote: Originally posted by IrC | How the hell did you draw such strange conclusions from my post?
Simple. Because you made your post. You come in here as a 'newbie' of only 34 posts, lecturing me about the credibility of my information. Who the
hell are you?
|
Seriously? You don't know who the hell he is? Please IrC Think about that for perhaps a minute or two and tell me if this person has ONLY 30 some post
or if hes perhaps someone that has much time put into this forum.... If you still feel hes a new commer after much thought has been put into it
then....well ok.... |
Kindly enlighten us as to who it is, then. |
Department of Redundancy Department - Now with paperwork!
'In organic synthesis, we call decomposition products "crap", however this is not a IUPAC approved nomenclature.' -Nicodem
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Rogeryermaw
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the events and numbers haven't really changed that much. still a ton of drugs out there. still murderers and rapists that operate independently of the
drug situation. what has changed is the availability of information. the 1940's and '50's etc that enjoy their reputations as a "peaceful golden age"
in america just didn't have the internet and rabid news media outlets to spread the disgusting stories as far as they go today. the same shit
happened. it just seems worse because we all hear about it now as opposed to a select few. that tragic regional story of a kid stabbed by a whacked
out mother is what would now be an overnight, viral, international news sensation where 40 years ago it may not even make it past state lines.
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turd
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What? A thread on PCP while I was out of town? Dirty tricks! 
| Quote: Originally posted by Sedit | | I have to disagree PCP is a drug that makes the person act like a schizophrinic and will degrade them on a deeper level. I have had experiances with
it and where as I have not had any desire in the slightest to abuse it I can very well see how it could drive someone to murder someone they would not
normally do so. |
So I guess we are the only two people on this thread who actually tried PCP. It's really amusing to read all the bickering of people who haven't even
tried it! Lol. My group's experiences (20 mg of the HCl salt, pure by NMR, intranasally, a colleague couldn't resist when he got hold of a bottle of
piperidine  ) seem to be different from yours and very much confirm MagicJigPipe
and wikipedia. I spare you the details, but IMHO no way a "normal" person could get violent on a strong PCP trip, but rather the opposite is true. At
first you are too far out for something like violence to even exist and when coming back the proportions of everything are so wrong that you have
other priorities than getting aggressive (like learning to speak again). The problem probably arises when clueless/hysterical people treat spaced out
people the wrong way - just let them come back, in one or two hours everything is fine.
The only reason I can imagine why this drug was popular is *because* of the stupid media brouhaha and maybe as a short-lived fad. Seriously, this is
not useful as a party drug (and neither is ketamine). And of course this is the reason it is not around anymore - much better party drugs abound.
Production of PCP and analogues cannot be controlled by law, because chemistry is so terribly trivial. All you need is PhBr, Mg or Li, a random amine
and cyclohexanone. With that you can produce kg batches at dose levels of 20 mg.
The "war on drugs" was lost a long time ago. If only they'd finally admit it.
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quicksilver
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There is no question that the "war on drugs" was lost nearly from the Harrison Narcotics Act because just as prohibition; there will always be a
segment of society that will demand to alter their natural state of thinking, conciseness, mental processing & by dealing with the "object" we
waste our time.
However we have an investment in the "war on drugs"; both monetary & societal. We also have a reality of those who have a deep emotional impact
from a tragedy wherein altered states of mental acuity were involved and that is VERY understandable.
Rhetorically, asking whether drugs are "good or bad" is similar to asking whether RDX is good or bad. The object obviously does not make an impact on
society; it's use does. But just as one cannot stop a chemical from existence, one cannot stop metallic objects from forming weapons, etc.
The discussion is aimed at the wrong agenda. If it's guns or drugs; the shit exists and it doesn't go away via legislation. Is Mexico City a violent
place? They have some damn strict gun laws. Is Japan drug free?
Our "drug Prohibition is entrenched for MANY reasons. What has NOT happened is many damn positive things from it. Would "treatment on demand" make a
difference? Who fucking knows; becasue in the USA we have a frolicking "Treatment Industry" that makes real $ off of getting someone into a classic
narcissistic format of pseudo-science called substance-abuse therapy.
We have looked at this subject from a microscope and with sunglasses but the prescription doesn't fit - and hasn't for decades. The few people with
balls enough to conceive that there may be brain chemistry issues in place (either fore or after drug ingestion over a protracted period) have not had
an opportunity to examine a worthwhile solution because there wouldn't be any $ in it and there certainly wouldn't be any votes.
So, we know that what HAS been attempted has had little result - why do we continue to tread the same tired old path? We all know the answer.
-- MAJOR RISK WITH MINIMAL REWARD!
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Regolith
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I hate posting in old threads but as this turned into a drug crap-storm and has I believe not enough voices on the side of caution.
First on Chemophobia, I'm a beekeeper by hobby, tell someone you work with a million stinging insects and they get nervous. Tell them you have a hive
in your backyard in addition to several outside the city and they will blame you anytime they get stung (don't even start on me about bees, proper
beekeepers don't keep angry bees, people stung anywhere near me are likely not my bees and/or wasps). Chemistry is almost no different (the
similarities are striking, run out of patience with either and/or be unprepared and you will hurt/die) most people are totally ignorant of it and
ignorance is treated with fear.
Don't try to change other people, you can't. My family LOVES the honey and cheap candles, think I can get any of them to help me? Hells no. Change
yourself, keep all chemicals in proper storage when not in use have an MSDS list of what you have and have EVERYTHING labeled correctly. If randomly
the cops show up one day on something unrelated and with a warrant search your house (highly unlikely especially if you keep mum about your goings on)
they would probably freak out and call the bomb squad who would arrive and look at the msds lists you have, verify safety, and MAY leave without
taking everything(assuming no explosive materials are found).
Finally regarding drugs and the human mind. I've walked through my own mind with many of the mentioned chemicals the intent WAS that inward trip.
Further I wanted to experience the cascade within my own brain. I can't imagine the fear someone (who was handed random drugs and took them) would
experience in that same situation not knowing why they were seeing things. Pcp is used for sedation/anaesthetic it WILL dissociate you with the world
meaning you aren't going to feel like its the real world. It induces a situation where the brain should be asleep, horrific waking nightmares, wetting
oneself (already mentioned). People have torn all the ligaments in their arms trying to lift things that normally their brain would signal it's a bad
idea and or moved things crazy heavy like cars because with adrenaline pumping but no pain response (or higher brain function, its sedated) the human
body is amazing/dangerous.
"But I think what we are debating is the complete change of someone's personality (i.e. from pretty normal to baby murderer). I just don't think
it happens all too often."
It's called a Psychotic break (it can be permanent) and I have seen it turn a normal person into one who now suffers lifetime schizophrenia. Some
peoples minds are either that fragile or just vulnerable to that drug/state. In the above case it's a now family member of a person who married my
sister. The guy is just weird and he only did coke and meth mixed (there was no easy way to put that, mixing drugs like that is insane, plus don't do
either, coke can explode your heart and meth, well I like having sinus passages NOT eroded into passage). Both less crazy (subjective) than pcp. His
mind couldn't take it, he was found a couple days later covered in his own filth crying behind a dumpster. Never been the same since. He was given
them mixed at a party. Drug laws exist so we all don't end up the same.
"PCP related violence is ridiculous. Drugs don't make people violent. Drugs do not have that capability."
I just laughed so hard after reading this I needed to reply. Yes that pesky (drug) testosterone in males doesn't cause fits of rage when taken by
bodybuilders.
"The problem probably arises when clueless/hysterical people treat spaced out people the wrong way - just let them come back, in one or two hours
everything is fine."
Yeah clueless, like say cops at a nightclub, hey whats wrong with that guy ? Which takes me back to the above mentioned dude flipping a car on his
own, that didn't stop him either. He came at the cops and they had to gun him down. "Spaced out people" ARE clueless and often hysterical mix that
with fear and you have a bad situation for all involved. Your talking about someone who may think your a friking alien and has both the strength and
the will to tear your alien arms off. The argument the cops shouldn't have shown up either has no merit anyone that out of it was a danger to all
around him, a bad note from a band could have set him off. It's fortunate the ones who set him off had the capability to stop him. You can't taze
someone like that either, adrenaline helps to protect the nerve pathways from things like electric shock. Plus guy flips a car and runs at you
screaming... that's the start of a zombie movie.
I like my green plant that I very much enjoy smoking so I'm not saying all drugs are bad. However starting down a path without questions and
intelligence isn't science or even research.
Messages not quoted directly because I'm lazy.
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turd
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Yeah, apparently PCP really does cause psychosis - in people not taking it.
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Regolith
Hazard to Self
Posts: 73
Registered: 4-2-2011
Location: Mining the moon.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Glacial
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Yes, you are one of the people I'm laughing at  I wanted to be nice to you but
since you decided to poke your head up I'll point and laugh.
Here I did an edit cause your myopic view of the world can't google apparently.
Here is a dad high on PCP who ATE one of his kids eyes and tried to get the other as well as attempted to hack off his own foot with an axe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsSSpPZbFtY&feature=playe...
Here's a guy who just laid down on the street and got run over. high on pcp
http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2010/08/jersey_city_man_l...
and here is a HIV positive guy who ran naked and bleeding through a church, high on pcp
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a92_1244393707
WOW those were hard to find. Bust out your google and brain next time before wasting my time.
It's a sedative hellooo, duh, with higher brain function SEDATED you don't do normal things. Arguing this point shows you don't have higher brain
functions to start with.
[Edited on 10-2-2011 by Regolith]
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a_bab
Hazard to Others
Posts: 458
Registered: 15-9-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Angry !!!!!111111...2?!
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@Turd: You tend to to rely on your own experience. But when it comes to dopes the ways it reacts with people could be quite different, just as any
other drugs. What a certain chem could be an effective drug to the most, it would possibly kill a few due to an allergic response, or it may not be
effective at all for some. Hell, just read the instructions of ANY med. There are so many side effects that you'd be scared.
Moreover, when dealing with mind altering stuff it gets worse, as we are getting into "mind side effects", which could manifest in an unpredictible
way just as Regolith stated very clearly.
Just accept the fact that while PCP turns you and your party mates into trippy vegetables sitting in a corner, others may want to take off because
THEY KNOW they can do it. From the 5'th floor.
Oh, sorry. It MUST be all just media BS.
If you judge things based on your limited experience, your judgement cannot be otherwise then limited.
Also I cannot help myself not noticeing the fact that some members not only openly show off they are into making dopes, but also discuss about the
effects.
The more time passes, the more this forum starts to desintegrate before my eyes into cells, hexagonally shapped, all bound together, with the happy
bees buzzing around.
Poor Sauron, he was right.
[Edited on 10-2-2011 by a_bab]
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