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manimal
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Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  | | Most of them are not in prison for violent crime, but rather for drug offenses. See crack disparity. Drug offenses are the reason that we lock people up at a rate much higher than almost any other country.[/url]
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This may be true, but it misses the mark as far as explaining ethnic disparities in crime because most whites are also incarcerated on drug charges. I
believe that the percentage of incarcerated whites who are drug offenders is higher than the respective percentage for non-whites, that is, that a
higher percentage of non-whites than whites are violent offenders. I can't recall the specific details, but they can surely be googled.
| Quote: | | It's not about canned soup, it's about people who are punished more severely for drug offenses because of their ethnicity. Anyone who believes
minorities get a pass from the cops isn't paying attention. |
I didn't suggest that it was 'about' soup. I was making an analogy to underscore the flawed analysis because it applies similarly in both cases.
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Rogeryermaw
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i don't trust "studies and polls" when they are of a social nature. "surveys can prove anything marge. forfteen percent of all people know
that!"(simpsons)
my point is not to be inflammatory but these are my observations in real life. i have spent more time than most immersed in predominantly black
neighborhoods and watched how they freely flout the law right in the public eye. also to point out that it makes no difference what your skin color
is. the l.e. wants to look good and have a story to brag to his friends about. if they could make a name for turning in their own mothers...well BYE
MOM!!!!!
one anecdote i can recall is the man laying on the ground next to his brain at the convenience store about two blocks from the automotive shop i was
working in. no arrest was made because cops are too chickenshit to show up at a violent scene involving firearms till 3 hours after the perp is gone.
but i couldn't count on my fingers plus yours how many times they showed up to arrest the transient WHITE man that slept on the ground in front of the
liquor store across the street from the same shop.
[Edited on 4-10-2010 by Rogeryermaw]
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Polverone
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If you categorically reject studies of social phenomena, how can you trust your own observations of social phenomena? Maybe when you thought you were
living in a black neighborhood full of scofflaws you were actually living in a white neighborhood full of Mennonites, and what you thought were crimes
were actually barn raisings.
[Edited on 10-4-2010 by Polverone]
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Rogeryermaw
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no sir you are correct and wise! there is valuable data to be obtained from such input. but, like any news media outlet, publication or survey or
poll, all are subject to bias in favor of the opinion of the target demographic. also i truly hope that my statements are not taken out of context and
considered racist or bigoted. i have friends from every part of the full spectrum. i know gays i know blacks i know people from every wavelength on
the visible spectrum(and some not so visible). but i try to keep my eyes on everything in range and make my own conclusions based on what i observe. i
personally have helped a black family escape disaster when their vehicle was struck broadside on a hill and overturned. this happened right in from of
that same auto shop(busy, rough, part of town. if you want to know i'll send you coordinates for google earth. used to be called arkansas radiator
till it was bought out by performance radiator). i left my post at the shop, ran into the street through traffic. and held their suv on its side so
they could crawl out of the broken windshield and then let it fall on its roof after they were clear. never even got so much as a thanks. the point
is, i don't arbitrarily hate. but my observations of life in different groups has made me quite cynical.
btw i never lived in predominantly black neighborhoods. just worked there. also choose a better group than mennonites. i had the displeasure of
finding out how rude they can be when my crew was in michigan(referenced in the phosphorus thread)after having met many of them. i prefer amish. much
more friendly!
[Edited on 4-10-2010 by Rogeryermaw]
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Polverone
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I don't think you read any of my linked articles, because they didn't come from polling firms or the news media 
I know that social phenomena are impossible to faithfully replicate in the laboratory, but so is continental drift, fossilization, or a supernova. Yet
geology, biology, and astronomy still manage to discuss these phenomena and develop models with predictive powers far better than random chance. That
doesn't mean every published biological or sociological paper should be taken as gospel, but they shouldn't be rejected if you cannot identify any
methodological flaws or show outright fabrication of data.
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Rogeryermaw
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actually i am in the midst of scrolling through them now . i don't completely
discount any source of information as having something worthy to impart. i just like to make my own decisions based on my observations and try to be
as objective as possible. can't call myself a scientist if i let my personal feelings or the bias of other sources make those judgment calls for me.
the best middle ground is to absorb all the input and then use my experiences as the final determining factor for what opinion i will hold toward any
given subject. and since you went to the trouble to show me a set of data i owe it to you to give it a fair shake so while i am not speed reading it i
am exploring it! and thank you for the leg work!
also,(and i'm still only working on the first article)what companies were these sent to? the answer to this may actually cause a bias due to the
aristocratic nature of large firm with primarily "good ol boy" executive bases. that answer may be in the reading but i'm still working on it.
and i know this is off topic but i was just admiring a physical aspect of a chemical. i bought some grain alcohol to synthesize ether and have been
storing it in the freezer. it loses SO MUCH mass when it is cold! also wonder if you read my question about frozen benzene. keep my volatiles in
refrigeration and my fridge was too low. it started freezing and the crystals are SO COOL!. very large and hexagonal...like enlarged benzene
rings!
edit: meant volume not mass
like the footnote about better neigborhood living not necessarily being favorable...i know why! spoiled rotten rich kids are definitely not better
workers. the study goes on to say that it is not dependable due to the inconsistency of human actors.
[Edited on 4-10-2010 by Rogeryermaw]
[Edited on 4-10-2010 by Rogeryermaw]
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manimal
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Apparently the second link is broken.
Polverone: I do not dispute that police often apply measurably differing treatment to differing ethnic groups in certain circumscribed circumstances
like traffic stops or confrontations in high-crime neighborhoods, dependent on many circumstantial factors. I never claimed that police obtrusion is
an evenly-applied or desirable thing in general. Regarding the 'black resume' study; it is somewhat outside the scope of this debate, but I will
nonetheless posit that a possible factor is the self-correction of negative externalities imposed by affirmative-action restrictions on hiring, via a
sort of spontaneous Pigouvian tax that falls back upon black job applicants. Economic blowback, if you will.
I believe the original question was whether being caught with ambiguous chemicals would lead to greater 'legal difficulties', whatever that implies,
for people of varying race. It is possible, but then, the officer charged to investigate such a scenario will likely not be an inner-city beat cop.
Investigating and/or making an arrest pursuant to something chemical-related (possible anarchist/terrorist/drug mfgr, or what have you) is not an
occurence as routine as pulling over a suspicious-looking black motorist, telling him off, and letting him go with a warning, in which case race could
convincingly play a deciding factor. A direct comparison is therefore not in order. If such a comparison could be made (that is, if data on it
existed) I express doubt that discrepencies approaching Nicodem's exaggerated(in my opinion) description would exist.
As for a potential 'harassment index' of being caught with chemicals I will concede a possible disparity between blacks and, for example, Asians, but
it is difficult to say because to my knowledge there are no studies in existence that address it, and no case studies.
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Rogeryermaw
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as far as drug cooks, you have a fair mix of black and white producing meth and an overwhelming majority of blacks producing crack but how often do
you see such minorities producing mdma or lsd? the chemistry is far to complicated for someone only interested in making a quick buck. that places the
perp on a whole different level as to their place in society (i'm basing this on a level of education needed to engage in such acts) and may have a
lot to do with the treatment they will receive once apprehended.
see this is nice. how often can a discussion like this take place without venom and hatred? it's good to have an intellectual discussion without petty
name calling.
i'm finding this third article much more interesting...one thing i wonder though, is how the region of the study affects the outcome. is it the same
in the south? how about the west coast? you get my drift.
[Edited on 4-10-2010 by Rogeryermaw]
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Polverone
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Sorry about the broken second link, but I can't seem to find an alternate link now.
I'm a clean cut white man without so much as a traffic ticket to my name. All the same, I don't want to interact with the police any more than
necessary. I think there is ample cause for visible minority groups to be even more apprehensive about police interactions than I am, and police
interactions aren't the only way they get the short end of the stick.
I mostly don't know what the members of Sciencemadness look like in person; I've only seen 3 in pictures and 2 in real life. I don't know who among us
may have ancestors from Europe, Latin America, Africa, the Indian subcontinent, the Middle East, or elsewhere. "Them," members of minority groups, may
actually be "us," members of Sciencemadness. So let's have a little empathy and, if we are to speak of minority group issues, not do so merely as
outsider critics but as if we are talking to and about friends and colleagues (and we may well do so unknowingly).
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Rogeryermaw
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well said. i have been involved with and still am involved with members of many ethnic groups both in occupation(not that i work now but i do keep the
friends i have made around the country) and personal friendship. i really do hate to see division between such groups based on how these different
peoples perceive these hate those or those hate these. we're all just meat bags doomed to be fertilizer one day. why spend what little time we have
being small minded?
and was that clean cut statement a crack at my appearance?
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madscientist
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Prosecutors and police alike are going to go after those least likely to have the funds to fight any charges leveled against them. Demographically,
this tends to be blacks.
When convicted, blacks tend to be sentenced more harshly than whites as mentioned previously - judges, consciously or not, associate you with poverty
and high crime neighborhoods, which they connect to recidivism. Long sentences follow.
Being a minority does not shield you in any way except maybe when you are some filthy rich celebrity with the cash to stir up a giant media circus
over the affair.
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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Rogeryermaw
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| Quote: Originally posted by madscientist |
When convicted, blacks tend to be sentenced more harshly than whites as mentioned previously - judges, consciously or not, associate you with poverty
and high crime neighborhoods, which they connect to recidivism. Long sentences follow.
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i have to disagree with this particular statement having been at the business end of that gun before. i have personally sat in the courtroom waiting
for my own trial and watched a black man with felony possession of crack-cocaine receive probation and walk away while i got to spend 90 days in jail
for misdemeanor possession of less that 2 grams of marijuana. now tell me that's not lopsided.
i have considered that such outcomes may be intended to pacify watchdog civil rights people but that is conjecture not fact. the only fact i can back
up is that the harsher treatment that it is perceived is laid upon minorities is sometimes trumped up by the media to generate sympathy. that's not to
say it never happens that way. once again i am only going by my personal observations while immersed in the system myself, and not by friend of a
friend anecdote.
[Edited on 4-10-2010 by Rogeryermaw]
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madscientist
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He may have struck a deal, gave the police names.
90 days for marijuana is outrageous but I'll refrain from commenting further, lest this turn into debate that ends up needing to be locked.
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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Rogeryermaw
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please don't do that! i value input from all! i'm hard to anger and love a good discussion. if you have examples of info contradictory to mine i would
welcome it gladly! i am always open to input from someone who may know something i don't. i do not see my experiences as being the rule or the
exception. they are just my experiences. could be the judge just didn't like the way i looked or who knows what guided the hand of fate that day.
and why lock it? from looking back at the last couple of pages it seems we are all being mature and civil here. as long as it stays that way it's
quite enjoyable.
damn! i'll tell you what's irritating. it sounds like jets are producing sonic booms over my house right now!
[Edited on 4-10-2010 by Rogeryermaw]
[Edited on 4-10-2010 by Rogeryermaw]
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Mr. Wizard
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“All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own
wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome.” - George Orwell
"In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell
"The truth must be repeated again and again because error is constantly being preached around us," Goethe told a friend in 1828. "And not by isolated
individuals, but by the majority! In the newspapers and encyclopedias, in the schools and universities, everywhere error is dominant, securely and
comfortably ensconced in public opinion which is on its side."
"Infamy" by John Toland page 257
My observation is nothing gets people more irritated than telling them the truth they don't want to hear. It would be easier to dig the Suez Canal
with a teaspoon than to change somebody's mind.
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quicksilver
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| Quote: Originally posted by Rogeryermaw | i have personally sat in the courtroom waiting for my own trial and watched a black man with felony possession of crack-cocaine receive probation and
walk away while i got to spend 90 days in jail for misdemeanor possession of less that 2 grams of marijuana. now tell me that's not lopsided.
i have considered that such outcomes may be intended to pacify watchdog civil rights people but that is conjecture not fact. the only fact i can back
up is that the harsher treatment that it is perceived is laid upon minorities is sometimes trumped up by the media to generate sympathy. that's not to
say it never happens that way. once again i am only going by my personal observations while immersed in the system myself, and not by friend of a
friend anecdote.
[Edited on 4-10-2010 by Rogeryermaw] |
Did you have a real lawyer or a public pretender?
The actual reasons studied by the ABA some years back is that legal representation is absent in most poor populations OR in scenarios where the
defendant THOUGHT that they would walk on a light charge. Do you do the whole 90 days?
If you HAD a Public Defender as soon as the gavel came down he should have filed an appeal & requested O.R. bail as a 1st offense. You DID discuss
defense stratagem with him or her correct?
If WAS a 1st offense; was it not?
Becasue if it wasn't a 1st offense; then you need to recognize that the fellow who walked on the coca charge may have been a 1st or he may have
already done a jolt and the inn was full; thus you wash Sheriff's cars or pick up trash for awhile.
Too many missing facts.
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manimal
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| Quote: Originally posted by madscientist | | Prosecutors and police alike are going to go after those least likely to have the funds to fight any charges leveled against them. Demographically,
this tends to be blacks. |
OK, but we were discussing the potential discrepencies in treatment between being a member of the majority race and being a member of some minority
race when finding oneself faced with a particular set of legal difficulties, not the potential discrepencies of being both of a different race and
having a diminished financial capacity at the same time.
| Quote: | | When convicted, blacks tend to be sentenced more harshly than whites as mentioned previously - judges, consciously or not, associate you with poverty
and high crime neighborhoods, which they connect to recidivism. Long sentences follow. |
Does this continue to hold after individual sentences between the two groups are matched for similar circumstances, such as severity of the crime and
number of prior convictions of the defendant? If so, to what extent? After all, that is really the only way to arrive at a statistically meaningful
comparison.
| Quote: | | Being a minority does not shield you in any way except maybe when you are some filthy rich celebrity with the cash to stir up a giant media circus
over the affair. |
I agree.
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madscientist
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| Quote: | | Does this continue to hold after individual sentences between the two groups are matched for similar circumstances, such as severity of the crime and
number of prior convictions of the defendant? |
Yes, that's what I had in mind.
Rogeryermaw, I think you misinterpreted me - I believe the drug war to be a pile of donkey dung, but I didn't want to say too much on that, lest I
turn this thread down the path of a drug war flamewar. 
[Edited on 6-10-2010 by madscientist]
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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entropy51
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| Quote: Originally posted by madscientist |
...I believe the drug war to be a pile of donkey dung, but I didn't want to say too much on that, lest I turn this thread down the path of a drug war
flamewar. |
| Quote: | | Instead of war on poverty they got a war on drugs so the police can bother me. |
R.I.P. 2Pac.
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Rogeryermaw
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admittedly, this was my second offense. however i can't say how many times the other man in particular had been arrested. what i heard as they read
the case against him was that he was in violation of his probation but instead of putting him into custody for violating, they reinstated his
probation.
i had a public defender because on my first offense, i had a paid attorney and still served 45 days for a first offense class b misdemeanor. what is
lopsided to me is that my offenses were misdemeanor and the man i was speaking about was a felony. that's what boiled my piss about the outcome. how
can they justify caging a misdemeanor offense and releasing a felon?
again i can only site my experience and express that it is neither the exception nor the rule. but that day the minority received less harsh
sentencing than a non minority even though the crime of the minority was rated higher.
[Edited on 6-10-2010 by Rogeryermaw]
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madscientist
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I've never heard of anyone getting leniency for possession of crack, particularly for a probation violation. (What would it take worse to look worse
to your judge? Raping someone?) He must've gave names to the police. They won't mention this at court hearings because they're open to the public, and
they do make some vague pathetic attempts at witness protection.
Basically you got nailed because you had guts, and he got off the hook because he didn't.
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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Rogeryermaw
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i can't defend judging someone based on their appearance, just look at my pic: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14556#...
i would hate to have someone try to ascertain details of my character based on that. but it is quite difficult to look decent in court after a week
and a half in general population coming in the courtroom in orange county attire unshaven and disheveled...you would think that they know you won't
look your best under the circumstances but it really does seem that they don't take that into account. some people have plain clothes delivered to
them for court appearances but i didn't want outside help. i did the wrong and i was ready to own up to that. i refused friends attempts to bail me
out too. i figured if i was going to do time then the time i had already spent should count towards it.
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manimal
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It seems that many studies that do correct for environmental factors show weak or contradictory bias wrt racial category(eg, http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi...), and certainly an insufficient amount to substantiate Nicodem's hyperbole ("If
you're a minority, you're screwed.").
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Mr. Wizard
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"R.I.P. 2Pac."
?????
A guy who lived a thug life, and died a thug, gets sympathy from what type of person? Maybe I just don't understand, and somebody can explain it for
me.
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Rogeryermaw
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i don't either but he had a huge following and a lot of people like rap. not me personally but to each his own, no? think of it this way: i feel
persecuted by the brainless masses because i know if i sat outside performing a distillation, if my neighbors could see me i would be labeled as a
drug cook or a terrorist. is that fair? by no means. some other people like that lifestyle and to each his own. personally i have no sympathy for a
thug dying as a thug. live by the sword, die by the sword, right? but i didn't know him so what can i say about him? that's like other people judging
me as a witch for performing acts of science that are way over their heads. they see something they don't like or can't understand so it's
automatically bad.
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