| Pages:
1
..
26
27
28
29
30 |
Loptr
International Hazard
Posts: 1348
Registered: 20-5-2014
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Grateful
|
|
I think they are mostly pushing back because they see distilling as theirs that they are continuing from an ages old craft. They probably think "oh,
here comes science again trying to act like it knows everything. well, we have been doing it the longest, so don't waltz in here and try and be a know
it all"...
All the while their entire craft is the result of individual experimentation that is not reproducible for the most part, simply because they follow no
systematic method, so you have guys that are doing it very well, while others I imagine are barely scraping by. Distillation is a problem that was
solved quite a while ago, so I would think this part of the process would be a non-issue, and you wouldn't still have such "advancements" in
"thumpers" as I see on that forum. It just means that you are working with a broken design, and are slowly improving it.
I understand why they respond in this manner, however, their method of perpetuating their knowledge of the process breaks down, and each individual
has to essentially relearn it.
[Edited on 18-8-2015 by Loptr]
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
@Loptr: nothing much I can disagree with there.
The funny/’tragic’ thing is that had aga waded in there with his data in hand but ‘cloaking’ his use of language to ‘fit’ closer to
theirs, he would probably have met with near-unanimous approval. But by the use of ‘sciency’ language he became the ‘other’ right from the
start.
I experienced something very similar on a home brewing (fermentation, NOT distillation) forum when cautiously trying to introduce a few basic ways of
measuring things more accurately and more systematically. By and large the reaction was ‘we don’t do it like that over here!’, with a subtext of
‘p*ss off!’.
+++++++++++
Going back on topic, I’d still be very interested in a more quantitative model that would predict why thumpers work and remain a little stumped as
to why this kind of ‘booster’ isn’t deployed in other distilling situations.
[Edited on 18-8-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Hey ! i was being Subtle !
The fact is that the Thumper did 'work' and the underlying principles should be applicable elsewhere (as you just said).
A more intersting claim was that "a thumper filled with an azeotropic mixture would produce better than azeotropic distillate".
(The wording was different)
Now, before anyone shouts 'Impossible !' it think it worth a try, as it will be easy to do anyway, and nobody believed the original thumper idea
either.
Edit:
Seeing as we're now trying to measure the Water not the ethanol, how does one do that ?
I have a Dean-Stark trap if that is of any use in this situation.
[Edited on 18-8-2015 by aga]
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by aga  | Hey ! i was being Subtle !
[snip]
A more intersting claim was that "a thumper filled with an azeotropic mixture would produce better than azeotropic distillate".
(The wording was different)
Now, before anyone shouts 'Impossible !' it think it worth a try, as it will be easy to do anyway, and nobody believed the original thumper idea
either.
Edit:
Seeing as we're now trying to measure the Water not the ethanol, how does one do that ?
|
My point wasn't about subtlety at all. By phrasing your claim in scientific language (rightly so, no criticism intended from my part) and not in their
more intuitive 'moonshiner's jargon' you identify yourself as an 'outsider'. They didn't like that, see basically Loptr's point.
| Quote: | | Now, before anyone shouts 'Impossible !' it think it worth a try, as it will be easy to do anyway, and nobody believed the original thumper idea
either. |
... is a very old type of fallacy. Here's a similar one, to illustrate:
"They said the motor car wasn't going to work either, ergo water-driven hyper drives for space ships are probably possible too.'
It's a bit, shall we say, 'franklynesque'? 
I'm not going to argue the point any further but will merely suggest you try and understand better what an azeotrope really is, physically speaking.
Re. measuring small amounts of water in a solvent, it's surprisingly difficult. Karl Fischer titration is the only thing that springs to mind and that's not for beginners. Once you're 'above' the azeotrope things like gas
chromatography can also be used.
++++++++
As regards calling me 'a bit highbrow', all I can say is: "Oy! Outside!" (The proverbial 'Dave' says "Leave it Bloggers. E's not wurffit!) 
[Edited on 18-8-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
So (having effectively removed Dave with cholorform) Put 'em Up, and suggest a way to accurately measure between 95% and 100% ethanol.
Dilution ?
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
However you do it, you've got a measurement error problem. Between 95 and 100 % a mere 2 % measuring error would bugger everything up. So if you're
gonna dilute you better do it real accurately.
I don't think this is realistically doable w/o Primary Standards (certified 100 % EtOH).
|
|
|
Dan P.
Harmless
Posts: 5
Registered: 18-8-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I'm sorry that it appears that I'm the first HomeDistiller to have joined the discussion on this side of the fence.
To clarify for you boffins (soi disant), the reasons for the reaction to aga's posts were various, and I can't speak for all the members there, but I
suggest that, in no particular order, the top three were;
Reason 1; aga's tone was obnoxious, imperious, rude, and in combination with the irrelevance of what he actually had to say, ridiculous.
Reason 2; aga wanted us to know that thumpers work, and that this is now true because science says so.
Well, it was true before, and has been true for a long time. The science behind it is not complicated, even home distillers get it. Old news.
Reason 3; The empty thumper necessarily causes higher abv output thing. There was some kind of nonsense about a thumper filled with azeotrope alcohol
that got some people excited. I'm not sure what that is about, or why a home distiller would fill a thumper with azeotrope?? Personally, I found the
empty thumper claim stupid because it claimed something in the name of science, claimed it as a science fact, that is simply not necessarily true in
all or most or even many cases.
The reason for that is that thumpers, as we know them at Home Distiller, are something used for the distillation of potable alcohol. It is largely
understood and agreed that they will be of a certain size relative to the size of the boiler, but after that, what you put in either boiler or thumper
is your own choice. It makes things complicated. I actually offered aga the example of a boiler filed with 1% abv wash, and an empty thumper vs. a
boiler filled with the same wash, but a thumper filled with 95% alcohol. The latter obviously gives the higher abv output, the empty thumper obviously
giving a much lower output.
So there you go. Now, on a slightly different note, I will add that there are not many home distillers who actually use thumpers. Why? Because they
are just a bit crap. They give a marginal increase in ABV, with a cost to the quality of the distillate. They are iconic because they were much used
during the "golden era" of moonshining, when the boiler would be filled with wash, the thumper filled with feints, wash, singlings or a compination
thereof, with the intention that spirit of acceptable abv (but of very questionable quality) could be produced in just one run, time and discretion
being at a premium. Pot stillers wishing to make quality spirit use simple double pot distillation. The output abv is quite acceptable for a potable
spirit, and the "smearing" of fractions that a thumper causes makes their use undesirable.
As for making high abv distillates, I think you will find a lot of very competent distillers at Home Distiller and various other home distilling sites
who use quite sophisticated equipment to produce azeotrope alcohol on a regular basis. Try Modern Distiller or Artisan Distiller forums for a slightly
more tech-minded demographic.
Regards,
Dan P.
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Welcome Dan P.
I really wish we had had you here when we started this thread.
What you know would have saved a lot of time and effort.
Edit:
Sorry if i appeared obnoxius and rude : it was not intended.
I was excited that Crowfjord had completed the Science, proving that Thumpers work (and to what degree).
I tend to drink too much, hence the label 'Forum Drunkard', which often makes my comments not quite what was expected.
[Edited on 18-8-2015 by aga]
|
|
|
Dan P.
Harmless
Posts: 5
Registered: 18-8-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by aga | Welcome Dan P.
I really wish we had had you here when we started this thread.
What you know would have saved a lot of time and effort. |
Well, never mind, I'm sure you had fun, even if it didn't necessarily get you anywhere!
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Your post here just shed a TON of light on the whole Thumper thing.
The reasons Why and the History of their use are the most impressive (to me).
Thank you loads for posting all of that.
It is very very useful information.
The Fact remains that we Proved that Thumpers work in a Scientific way, which means that Anybody or their Auntie can pick up that information and Test
it.
Just 'i know it works' is not useful to the next guy who does not know exactly how to do it.
I suppose it would be the same if an HD menber posted a public statement showing his exact Pot and Thumper dimentions, along with the pipe length and
diameters, as well as the starting mash w%, temeratures and measured ABV output over 1 minutes intervals.
Maybe that happened. If it did, nobody here could find it.
|
|
|
Dan P.
Harmless
Posts: 5
Registered: 18-8-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Honestly, any half-wit on HD could have told you that thumpers work, and why. It's logical that they should work. Easily explainable. There are quite
a few and quite lengthy threads about thumpers. Unfortunately they are mostly drivel.
Did you get banned?
[Edited on 18-8-2015 by Dan P.]
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Somebody telling me that "Aliens Exist" is not enough for me to believe it.
I want Proof (in more ways than one)
Same with "Mah Thumpah gives me 100 w% Ethanol"
Same with "Mix HNO3 and Water and you get Gold"
The Science thing is determining *if* it is true,
If it is, you can use it, and Build on it.
No, i have not been banned from HD yet, but the night is still young, and i posted a new thread.
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Dan P. | | Honestly, any half-wit on HD could have told you that thumpers work, and why. It's logical that they should work. Easily explainable.
|
Please Explain.
We here could not work out how.
Edit :
**
Before any smart ass jumps in and says Aha ! Thermodynamics prohibits it !
Just give Dan P a time to explain it ok ?
**
We were all wrong about the 'Thumpers cannot work at all ' thing remember ?
[Edited on 18-8-2015 by aga]
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
@Dan P.:
I have only one thing to tell you and one to ask you.
| Quote: Originally posted by Dan P. |
Reason 1; aga's tone was obnoxious, imperious, rude, and in combination with the irrelevance of what he actually had to say, ridiculous.
|
That bit is simply not true at all.
And here's my request. Now that the thread he had started has been locked, will you have the courtesy, since as you've now had your say on your side
of the story here (your right to reply, so to speak), to leave?
It's obvious that your world and ours are worlds apart, and I see no reason for any 'forum wars'.
Deal?
Best of luck with all your endeavours at homedistiller.org,
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Seems i did get banned a few 10s of minutes ago.
Heigh ho.
SM should learn from this and Ban idiots like me who try to share information.
Edit:
I was about to change my password, yet decided to leave it as-is. Same pw on HD.
If you see some seriously crazy stuff from my account, you'll er, ..
Hang on. How would anyone know it wasn't me ?
Security thru insanity. There has to be a future in this.
[Edited on 18-8-2015 by aga]
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Where was the new thread?
Trust me, an exchange with HD will not lead anywhere useful. If you want to know what they know about thumpers, search for it there. There are plenty
threads on that, I linked to a couple of them higher up in this thread.
[Edited on 18-8-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
Dan P.
Harmless
Posts: 5
Registered: 18-8-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
It's not very hard to get banned from HD, so you may find your efforts quite fruitful, in some ways.
How thumpers are supposed to work;
Pot still, charged with wash at 10%
gives out a distillate at maybe 30% (collectively)?
That distillate is condensed in the thumper, which has been charged with the "feints" of your last run, at perhaps 40% or more.
Now, theoretically, as the thumper warms up, the condensed input from the boiler and the thumper charge will begin to boil off the different
fractions, which are then condensed and collected, as per the spirit run on a pot still. In practice, it is much more complicated and the fractions
get smeared and a general horror show ensues, as far as potable product is concerned.
However, the desired effect is indeed acheived, that being a collective output ABV of perhaps 55-60% in one run, as opposed to two runs in a simple
pot stil (no thumper) giving maybe 70%.
These numbers are made more vague because how they are "cut" i.e. whether certain fractions are kept as product or discarded/recycled as feints, is
very much a personal preference.
Now, is that so outlandish sounding that you wouldn't accept it?
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Dan P. | It's not very hard to get banned from HD, so you may find your efforts quite fruitful, in some ways.
|
If every time someone comes along and says something you don't care about, then suspect he's a 'troll', then it's no surprise getting banned is easy.
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
That is excellent information Dan P.
It'll take a few minutes to read it againand work out what it means.
Thanks for sharing the information - your input on this project is very very helpful.
Edit :
Told you he gets all HighBrow at Times ...
[Edited on 18-8-2015 by aga]
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
OK. Read it a few times now.
Your 'explanation' of How they work is more of a Guideline of how to make a Thumper work.
This may well help a Distiller yet does not offer any explanation of How a Thumper works.
Granted : a Thumper does 'work' in that it raises the w% (aka ABV) of the distillate.
The How is the most interesting bit, as the Process by which it works might be useful elsewhere, maybe many elsewheres.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by aga | OK. Read it a few times now.
Your 'explanation' of How they work is more of a Guideline of how to make a Thumper work.
This may well help a Distiller yet does not offer any explanation of How a Thumper works.
Granted : a Thumper does 'work' in that it raises the w% (aka ABV) of the distillate.
The How is the most interesting bit, as the Process by which it works might be useful elsewhere, maybe many elsewheres. |
It's more a description than anything else. You can find very similar descriptions on this thread by 'Zombie', not to mention endless variations of it
on thumper related HD threads.
A mole-heap is being turned into a mountain here: so we wanted to figure something out in a controlled experiment, with actual numbers, so WHAT?
That's mortal sin for a 'traditionalist', apparently... 
[Edited on 18-8-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Careful bloggers. We'n got a heap of likker here and it burns real good.
I for one would like to have the views of an Actual likker distiller here instead of Zombie, who is/was an aretefact IMHO (an invented character).
After all, we got here by You stumbling across Thumpers on HD.
Perhaps there are other useful thing to Learn from Actual likker distilers.
[Edited on 18-8-2015 by aga]
|
|
|
Dan P.
Harmless
Posts: 5
Registered: 18-8-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The "how" is simple, your distillate is getting immediately redistilled. Combine it with a thumper charge that is already a relatively high abv, and
the output will be higher still.
I know your interest is more scientific than that, but as far as "how" goes, I think that is fairly straightforward.
And please don't be frightened of some imaginary "forum war". It isn't going to happen. I am the only person who has bothered coming on here, and as
it happens, though they can be a bunch of old women sometimes, the HD crowd is a pretty civil one.
Speaking of old women, blogfast, I will respect your "Please leave at once. We are from different worlds, you and I" etc. etc. Please believe me, this
thread is the only thing remotely of interest to me on this forum (it was linked by aga from HD), and even then you seem yourselves to be coming to
the embarrasing conclusion that you have got the wrong end of the stick!
Thumpers and their efficacy are utterly straightforward, child's play, and it only took you 28 pages to work it out.
"Pleeease leeeeave!!"
over and out.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Sure. Yet all I wanted to know is how these things work from a thermodynamical point of view.
Zombie is here, read through the thread again, he elaborated at great length on nearly all aspects of thumpers. For real 'likker aspects' (taste etc)
you'd be better off at HD. Our thing was about EtOH enrichment.
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Out is not an option until a Moderator makes it so.
Your views, however Wrong i/we currently see them are of great value.
I appreciate you sharing them : it really help us Understand what the hell goes on in a Thumper.
The Child's Play you're talking about is Just Making It Work, and has no relation to HOW IT WORKS. Neither You, Us or the Child KNOWS how it works.
Therefore none of us can apply that knowledge to say Cancer Vaccine development, or anything else.
It just gets used in Booze production.
If this thread is all that interests you, and not "How To Test the Impurities in Your Water", then i guess i got it all wrong when i tried to share
information with HD.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
..
26
27
28
29
30 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
