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blogfast25
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Quote: Originally posted by aga  | The thumper liquid is never cold if you start with an empty thumper, so perhaps that has a beneficial effect.
It'd be an idea to try it with a heated thumper too, although i suspect the temperature of the input from the boiling pot is important as well (never
much more than EtOH's B.P.) |
I was thinking the following. Your data (from the no thumper run) show that the first say 10 ml comes over at say 50 % ABV. If you had cold, say 50 ml
of 9 % ABV in there that would mix and you'd end with say 60 ml of about 17 % ABV. Without any 'wash' in the thumper that would be about 50 % ABV.
Thanks ES!
Help! How do I prevent this graph now appearing in every post??
[Edited on 29-3-2015 by blogfast25]
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aga
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A biggie is the continuous stream of vapour from the boiling pot to keep the thumper bubbling steadily.
The steadier your boiling pot runs, the smoother the thumper temperature will be, which appeared to affect the output concentration.
Makes sense i guess : a quick burst of heat and more distillate happens too fast, entraining water.
Anyone seen Zombie recently ?
Finally we're agreeing with him !
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aga
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Erm, next time you reply, check at the bottom of the page to see if there is a file selected for upload.
If so, remove it.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | erm, next time you reply, check at the bottom of the page to see if there is a file selected for upload.
If so, remove it. |
Like so. Ta.
[Edited on 29-3-2015 by blogfast25]
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | A biggie is the continuous stream of vapour from the boiling pot to keep the thumper bubbling steadily.
The steadier your boiling pot runs, the smoother the thumper temperature will be, which appeared to affect the output concentration.
Makes sense i guess : a quick burst of heat and more distillate happens too fast, entraining water.
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Firstly, thumper temperature will always be relatively smooth because of thermal inertia. That cup of coffee you're having in the morning doesn't
plummet IMMEDIATELY to RT either, just because you're not heating it or even blowing on it.
The effect of working in non-equilibrium conditions (very fast distillation) isn't so easy to predict but mechanical entrainment is one
possibility. That would make the leaving stream of vapour/mist less rich in EtOH than in strict equilibrium conditions. But the effect is likely to be
fairly small.
[Edited on 29-3-2015 by blogfast25]
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Magpie
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Very nice work, boys! - very professional.
No.
My guess is that he is off to the lab trying to renew his "I Broke the Azeotrope" badge. 
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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blogfast25
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Thanks Magpie. 
I'm working on breaking the azeotrope myself, as a GRQ scheme!
[Edited on 30-3-2015 by blogfast25]
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deltaH
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Nice work y'all  I liked your graph, blogfast, very much!
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blogfast25
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Thanks deltaH.
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aga
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In answer to the OP's question, Thumper Theory is a Reality not a Myth.
Add a used jam jar and a couple of pipes to your 'shine rig to get much stronger booze, and an easy way to tell when all the Good Stuff is in the
sippin' jar.
Remarkable ingenuity really, truly remarkable.
Perhaps time to take a look at the 'Shake-a-Bottle' notion for ABV determination.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga |
Add a used jam jar and a couple of pipes to your 'shine rig to get much stronger booze, and an easy way to tell when all the Good Stuff is in the
sippin' jar.
Remarkable ingenuity really, truly remarkable.
Perhaps time to take a look at the 'Shake-a-Bottle' notion for ABV determination. |
Looking at some of the designs I linked to above, their jam jars would fill up very fast though. And it would still be advisable to actually test some
of these contraptions.
The 'shake-a-bottle' method works to distinguish between 'low proof' and 'high proof', no question about it; the surface tension of a high proof
'likker' is lower than a low proof one and thus bubbles are longer lasting. No mystery. But would you use that trick for the sort of experiment you've
just performed? I think the answer is 'no'. Most moonshiners now use hygrometers. I know, cos' I watch 'Moonshiners' (http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/moonshiners/). Sadly it's more about
Shiners and the Larw than about distillation techniques. Oh, the dumbing down! 
[Edited on 30-3-2015 by blogfast25]
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aga
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Can't imagine why they'd not use a refractometer seeing as they're affordable, easier to use, and require about 0.2ml of likker max = saves on likker
hot dicketty dang.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | | Can't imagine why they'd not use a refractometer seeing as they're affordable, easier to use, and require about 0.2ml of likker max = saves on likker
hot dicketty dang. |
They throw the sample likker back into the distillate pot anyway. It's also possible that alcohol refractometers in some US moonshine hotspots may be
prohibited. I mean why would you want such a gizmo, if it wasn't for mischief, eh? That seems to be the reasoning re. lab glassware in some states, so maybe also here? Anyroads, I'm just speculating.
It would also be interesting to try the thumper system on another binary system.
[Edited on 30-3-2015 by blogfast25]
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Magpie
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A thumper should work on any binary system. After all it is just a second stage. It's especially effective with the ethanol/water system because of
the shape of the VLE curve. Ie, it has a big bulge on the starting end.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Zombie
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Sorry I missed sooooo much of this.
I'm glad to see all are in agreement as to what is actually happening in the system, and why it works.
The advantage of having a partially filled thumper is the hot vapor will strip EtOh from the thumper and increase the ABV or mole fraction of the
vapor.
Starting with an empty thumper only delays that reaction. The increase you are seeing with an empty thump is due to the higher ABV once it fills
enough to work.
It's similar to beginning with 50% ABV in the thumper. Lots of shiners do just that. Fill the thump with high proof liquor, and have a much higher end
result.
Now for the Azeo thing. I don't have a scanner or camera to post my Certs., and because distilling is illegal here posting a picture of a still I
claim as mine is about the same as picts of a Meth Lab.
I like my freedom too much.
The still I do have experience with is a dual column rig. I explained this here before. It is a concentric column, and perhaps the only practical one
ever built.
The outer column (stripping column) is 6" diameter containing 4) 10% hole space sieve plates, and 2) structured packing sections made from #6 mesh
screen layered 6 high in an accordion fashion.
The inner column (rectifier) is 4" Dia., containing 14" of random packing (copper mesh) and 4) of the 4"structured screen packing sections. There are
centering rings between each packed section.
All of the spent wash from the outer column is returned to the boiler, and the spent from the rectifier is dumped into a re-boiler in the center of
the main boiler.
A full year of number crunching went into making this unit work. It is designed as a fuel Ethanol column, and not as a hootch still.
The wash I use is always the same... 75Lbs. of refined sugar, 30 gallons of distilled water, 4oz. Brewers yeast, and 4oz. of Miracle Grow Plant food.
This mix yields 35 gallons of 12% wash, and 3 gallons of 96% finished EtOH.
After 1/2 hour of stabilization (in the column, before collection begins) the first to last collected drops will read 98% or 196 proof. It takes
anywhere from 15 minutes to 2 hours to stabilize at 96% or 192 proof.
Getting back to the pot/thumper... The only key or trick to distilling is controlling the heat to minimize water vapor from forming. Yes some is
always carried over in the EtOH due to the Azeotrope. It can be reduced depending on the amount of fuesil oils in the mash/wash, and careful heat
graduation.
ALL stills work on graduation. The right amount of heat at the right places make the difference between a clunker still or an engineered still.
Pot stills can be engineered to work correctly.
Look at all the top Whiskey distilleries from Scotland.... They have caps, and Lyne arms that have been developed over centuries. They never applied
math or any form of engineering but they can make azeotrope from a simple pot solely due to the design of the vapor path.
Anyway... I'm glad to be back posting. I spent the last week on a 28' Morgan sailboat, delivering it to a customer in the Keys. Dry land is good.
Whiskey is better, and seeing that the Thump. mystery has been solved is best.
Much respect to all of you that worked so hard to sort this out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kudos~
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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Hi Zombie,
| Quote: | | I'm glad to see all are in agreement as to what is actually happening in the system, and why it works. |
Going by what you wrote further down, I doubt we actually agree on ‘why it works’.
| Quote: | | The still I do have experience with is a dual column rig. I explained this here before. It is a concentric column, and perhaps the only practical one
ever built. |
I’m very interesting in that design but find it difficult to imagine it, based on your description. Any chance of a ‘back-of-an-envelope’
diagram to elucidate a little?
| Quote: | The only key or trick to distilling is controlling the heat to minimize water vapor from forming. Yes some is always carried over in the EtOH due to
the Azeotrope. It can be reduced depending on the amount of fuesil oils in the mash/wash, and careful heat graduation.
ALL stills work on graduation. The right amount of heat at the right places make the difference between a clunker still or an engineered still.
Pot stills can be engineered to work correctly.
Look at all the top Whiskey distilleries from Scotland.... They have caps, and Lyne arms that have been developed over centuries. They never applied
math or any form of engineering but they can make azeotrope from a simple pot solely due to the design of the vapor path. |
I’m not sure whether it’s due to the kind of language you use or what but there’s so much I disagree with there.
The Vapour Liquid Equilibrium (VLE) is established in… well, equilibrium conditions. No matter what you do, the vapour phase contains both EtOH AND
water. This is true of any binary system, as long as the least volatile component has at least some volatility. This is true even at the
slowest rate of distillation (pot enthalpy input, basically), within reason that rate doesn’t change the VLE. Slower distillation doesn’t somehow
‘hold back’ any water.
Water isn’t found in the distillate because of the azeotrope: distil mixtures of, say water and acetone (forms no azeotrope) and you’ll find water
in the distillate, the amount depending largely on the reflux of your equipment (and the VLE itself, of course). A still that’s well insulated above
the liquid-vapour level (thus providing little or no reflux) would provide only about one theoretical plate (without a column or such like).
Extremely fast distillations could cause some mechanical entrainment of wash and that would cause extra water to come over (with respect to
the VLE).
Define better what you mean by ‘graduation’, in this context.
As regards “solely due to the design of the vapor path”, as long as that vapour path is in intimate contact with a counter-current liquid path,
then yes: that’s the key to separation.
The idea that top Whiskey distilleries from Scotland “never applied math or any form of engineering” is a bit too risible to even refute! That’s
just your ‘we don’t need them bookworms here’ worldview shining through again. You certainly seriously underestimate 18 – 19th century
Scottish engineering capability, to put it mildly.
Back later tomorrow…
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Magpie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie |
Anyway... I'm glad to be back posting. I spent the last week on a 28' Morgan sailboat, delivering it to a customer in the Keys.
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Wow - the Morgan 28' was the first sailboat I ever chartered (bareboat). I took my bride for a 3 day cruise in the Abacos on my honeymoon. Remember:
"It's better in the Bahamas!"
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Zombie
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Hi Mr. Blog,
I know I greatly over simplify things. I'm the kind of guy that needs meat to bite into, and if there are three dozen words to explain a simple
thought I move on to easier feeding.
Since I moved to Fl. to relax, and do as I please I have gotten worse at short selling concepts, and I leave all the long words to the beholder to
fill in the gaps. I apologize if it offends, and I do appreciate your indulgence in asking me to fill in some of those gaps.
Starting from the bottom up...
perhaps I did short sell the designers of the Scottish stills. Reality is there was a concept first, and the designs proved the concept. That leads to
math. Math leads to improvements, and understanding why something works. At least that's the way I see it all.
If I cared to pay attention 30 years ago I could have given this whole thread a quick answer by providing the formulas that made a thumper work. So
could any one that read it. Again the reality is we are all simple people that have learned different things. Some the same but that is the common
thread of the forum. Common interest.
Take a fella that reads Gas spectrometer printouts all day... Bet he can't change a fuse in that Mercedes Benz. BUT he can lay out the total
resistance of the entire wiring diagram on paper in two minutes.
That is all I meant by Scottish designers back in the day. Trial, and error led to the math that now predicts what a still will do.
Moving on to entrainment. That is exactly what I mean when I talk about reducing water vapor. There are many reasons and causes of entrainment, and it
is the bain of all types of distillation from petrol cracking towers to simple "bumping" in a Lab setting.
On a simple Pot still the cap, and boiler shape is made to reduce entrainment, and provide a natural reflux that does allow heavier (% water) vapor to
reflux. Technically it is not really reflux but a simple drop out or equalization within the boiler. That is where Gradient comes in. Temperature
gradient is what I mean. There MUST be a specific temp range on every inch of a pot / cap / lyne arm / column, for it to work efficiently.
If the cap is the same temp as the boiler that heavy vapor will never fall, and the water will carry to the condenser.
I don't think that was engineered on the first real working still. It had to be learned.
That gets to my concentric column... The boiler is 36" tall. The stripping column (outer) is 36" tall on top.
The inner (rectifying) is 72" overall. 36" are inside the boiler, and the other 36" are inside the outer...
The inner re-boiler is insulated to reduce the operating temp at the base to 25* f below the boiler temp. The reason is the temp at the top of the
outer column is always exactly 20*f below the boiler, and that vapor is now injected into the base of the inner column.
This allows whatever water (spent wash) is in the vapor to condense, and drop into the reboiler.
The column now uses the heat from the EtOH vapor to fire the inner column.
There are also "shotgun" condensers on top of Both columns to increase reflux. I can run at full power for days, and never extract a drop of vapor but
the stages are packed in the columns by mole fractions and ready to be extracted.
Staying at a set temp gradient allows control of what fraction is where. Without a gradient all stills are hot pipes pumping out everything in them. I
understand your point there.
I had to learn thermal mass transfers to get the right combo of materials to insulate the inner column to set a specific temp, and found that 1.5mm
thick stainless tubing, and 2mm of silicone between that and the copper inner column would set the temp.. That I did develop thru math, and no trial,
and error. The column did what I designed it to do only because I took the year to develop it.
Look around the net for working concentric columns... They don't exist. The very few that do are mufti million dollar rigs, and too finicky to be of
any commercial use.
They never thought about it as a distiller. They over engineered the heat transfers (gradient), and missed the mark.
Here's a few of the early Cads on the dams, wiers, down comers, plates, and a few random sketches.
I do have a patent pending status, and hopefully within the year I will have the international patent.
My Hydrofiol design is next. Some of the early work on epoxy formulas will be here.
    
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | | Quote: Originally posted by Zombie |
Anyway... I'm glad to be back posting. I spent the last week on a 28' Morgan sailboat, delivering it to a customer in the Keys.
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Wow - the Morgan 28' was the first sailboat I ever chartered (bareboat). I took my bride for a 3 day cruise in the Abacos on my honeymoon. Remember:
"It's better in the Bahamas!" |
It's an amazingly fast little boat. We made it to Tamp from Carrabelle in two days. Then to Islamorada (Key) in another 3.5.
Straight sailing, and the wind to our starboard the whole way.
The hard part was walking upright for the first 10 or so hours once we landed. I had a hard lean to port for a few hours...
The fella that owns the boat (Jonny Debt) want's to sail it to Canada in August. I'll have to think hard on that one...
I'm just happy to be home. Missed my dogs, and my Fireball Whiskey.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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Zombie:
OK, I broadly speaking agree with what you write there.
Thanks for the diagrams, it's clear now.
Big But(t) ... Looks rather complicated to fabricate. Expensive and possibly high
maintenance. Quite sophisticated temperature controls on both the coil and shotgun condensers will be needed too. Any idea what temperature you'll be
running the waters at?
I can see that it will be less tall (2 m (80") for 90 L (20 Gl) is short for 95 EtOH) than a simpler, equivalent 'one column' design and that's a
great advantage. Are there other advantages that offset the higher construction cost?
At the start of distillation, will both boilers be filled with wash?
Any particular reasons why this is intended for fuel alcohol, not 'likker'?
[Edited on 1-4-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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All those sketches were preliminary. They were mainly to place the components, and get a "feel" for the design.
You are correct on a few points... The construction of the Prototype was complicated. I had to make it all modular, and logical in order of
construction. Once I sorted that it is actually quite simple to tear down, and replace/repair/modify, components.
I wont bore you with that process.
The cooling water temps are NOT monitored but they can be for automation. The current set up uses an evaporator from a commercial Air Condition unit
mounted inside a home chest freezer, and a recirculating impeller pump. I use Pink non toxic anti freeze for home plumbing as the coolant, and
separate ball valves for each reflux condenser.
Full bore it will pump 70 gph of coolant but in running conditions it runs closer to 1.5 liters per minute of coolant.
I could either monitor coolant temp or flow rate. Flow rate at 30*f seems more consistent than Temp monitoring in the long run. BUT I have not
attempted to automate this yet.
The goal is to run under vacuum, and fire the boiler w/ 160^ solar heated water. (long term goal)
The dimensions are different in these drawings, as are the plate/packing sections.
In the final rig it is equal to 21 theoretical plates, and just 82" tall overall. The combined column length is 108" at an internal area equal to a
3.82" column.
The initial idea was to build an azeotrope Vodka column that would fit into most any home w/ 8 foot ceilings. This quickly led to a Solar powered fuel
EtOH column that can run on solar heated water.
The advantage in a solar column is obvious. Combine the climate, and weather patterns of most likely areas of use... Semi tropical regions.
Hurricanes... Reduced height towers rule here.
A six inch tower would need to be at least 18 feet tall on top of a boiler in most cases.
My design brings this down to 9 feet tall including a 200 gallon boiler.
Ten of these rigs can produce approx. 200 gallons of fuel in 5-6 hours, and use no fuel for heating the boilers. In fact the heat transfer in the
solar heated water can be used to assist in creating the vacuum to run the rigs.
Once actual tooling is established the cost of construction / materials can be within 30% of a conventional EtOH fuel column, and the operating costs
far out weigh this slight increase.
I have a friend in the Philippines that is doing the business prospective, and compiling the numbers. It appears to be a break even cost on the very
first production run taking electric / oil / sillage fuel costs, and maintenance into account. We are attempting to scale up the numbers to fit real
world operating/manufacturing/maintenance costs.
At the start of the run... Yes. Both boilers are pre charged. The inner re-boiler depends on a positive pressure created from that wash or "charge" on
the jetted vapor injection pipe.
There is an engineered "jet" in the base of the injection pipe that allows an escape of spent wash at a controlled rate so no wash can back up into
the vapor pipe once at operating temp. This eliminates issues such as "suck back" as seen here or bumping entrainment.
There are side vents on the vapor injector to allow passing of clean, stripped EtOH vapor just above this bottom jet. That vapor is passed directly
into the first "random packing section for its first pass at rectification. Any further reflux is based on this clean vapor, and NOT on any water
carried over from the stripping column. That water is collected in / monitored / drained from the re boiler as needed. Right now it is on a manual
sight tube / drain valve, but it can easily be automated via a float control or graphite / stainless sensors.
Like I said... This started life as a home Vodka still, and once I saw where the design was leading, I had to offer it as an alternative fuel
production source.
The advantages are many, and the idea fits many world markets.
With several dozen different Federal, and State, tax / business / alternative fuel incentives, loans, grants as well as a nearly year round feed
stock growing season Florida is a natural choice for implementing these columns.
Same applies for MANY other markets around the world.
To make light of the whole concept... If we insist on burning fuels for power, you might as well be able to add an olive, and some ice to your fuel.
It might just spark the next great idea.
I really do appreciate your interest. Same goes to all of you that have reached out. This was the toughest project to date I have ever tackled. More
to come...
[Edited on 4-2-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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Thanks a lot for the info.
Good luck with the patent.
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Zombie
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Thank you Mr. Blogfast.
As I'm sure you know, international patents cost a LOT of money, and there are no guarantees.
To me it is like a breath holding contest that never ends. It just begins again with every update.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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ave369
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I am a practicing moonshiner, and I've used a simple form of thumper. It works. Without it, my foreshots come out 60% ethanol and my main batch
40-50%. With it, the foreshots come out 90% ethanol and the main batch 70%.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by ave369 | | I am a practicing moonshiner, and I've used a simple form of thumper. It works. Without it, my foreshots come out 60% ethanol and my main batch
40-50%. With it, the foreshots come out 90% ethanol and the main batch 70%. |
It's been proved scientifically in this post.
More experiments are expected by another SM experimenter.
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