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aga
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300g versus 5g maybe ?
Bottom got a thick coating.
Cracked all over the coated area.
This was Chinese glass, and not thick-walled.
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Zombie
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I heard somewhere that hammers, and rocks do the same thing to glass.
It's one of the few things I do believe on face value, and therefore never felt the need to prove.
It's all good fellas. Just be careful sampling the product... 
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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aga
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Hammers and Rocks do Not break glass per se.
Place a Rock or a Hammer on a Glass sheet, and the glass will happily support the weight of the hammer.
A metal hammer moving at sufficient Speed will break glass.
This particular Theory is well known, and there should be be data supporting it.
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Zombie
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Quote: Originally posted by aga  | Hammers and Rocks do Not break glass per se.
Place a Rock or a Hammer on a Glass sheet, and the glass will happily support the weight of the hammer.
A metal hammer moving at sufficient Speed will break glass.
This particular Theory is well known, and there should be be data supporting it. |
You, and Blogfast have a LOT in common.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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gsd
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Sorry for barging in late into this thread. I was not following it, but after some discussion with Magpie, I browsed thru'. Here is my take on it for
whatever it is worth.
1) This "thumper" is a contraption for Steam Distillation with an added twist that the heat source i.e. motive steam contains the feed stream as well.
2) The thumper pot is equivalent to one distillation stage wherein the intimate vapour liquid contact is achieved by bubbling the steam into residual
liquid. This is a batch operation in which bottom product (largely water) accumulates in the pot and the top product (enriched ethanol) is
distilled-off.
3) As stated above the heating and feeding is thru' the steam from boiling pot. The un-insulated walls of the thumper act as "reflux condenser ".
4) If the thumper is made tall (like column) and filled with marbles (as packing material) and if only the bottom portion - which holds water - is
insulated then it will significantly improve its efficacy.
That is all I can make out of this rather longish thread.
Gsd
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Zombie
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You summed it up, and added a twist.
Everything you said is correct to a degree.
The pot or elongated container can not create enough reflux by itself to achieve any discernible gain in ABV simply by adding packing. It's the liquid
vapor interaction that strips EtOH from the falling liquid (reflux).
Without creating a way to drop liquid down the column full of packing all you create a a partially blocked column, and the vapor will rise but have
Very little to strip on it's way up.
The thumpers capacity to act as a "Partial Reflux condenser" is minimal. It stays hot enough that EtOH will not re condense yet the water fraction
will. Too cold, and everything condenses.
Too hot, and everything passes thru.
Lets suppose the thumper WERE 100% efficient, and insulated. Then it would have NO effect. It would simply be a bulge in the pipe.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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gsd
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| Quote: |
The pot or elongated container can not create enough reflux by itself to achieve any discernible gain in ABV simply by adding packing. It's the liquid
vapor interaction that strips EtOH from the falling liquid (reflux).
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The packing is not added to increase reflux. It is added to increase contact area between upcoming vapour and downcoming condensed liquid.
| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie |
Without creating a way to drop liquid down the column full of packing all you create a a partially blocked column, and the vapor will rise but have
Very little to strip on it's way up.
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The exposed walls which are acting as condenser are partially converting vapour into "drop down "(reflux)
Of course. It is a crude devise presumably designed by trial and error without any theoretical consideration. A little external cooling of the top
wall (even by using a small fan) will increase reflux and the product purity.
| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie |
Lets suppose the thumper WERE 100% efficient, and insulated. Then it would have NO effect. It would simply be in the pipe.
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Here I assume you are talking of "Thermal Efficiency" of thumper. It is not made to make the system thermally efficient. It is made to extract as much
"juice" from the pot as possible.
gsd
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Zombie
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You are correct on the packing. It is there to create surface ares for the vapor liquid interaction.
The "drop down" reflux is actually a bad condition in any column. It is called wicking or column weep.
The reason it is bad is it cools the volatile compound (EtOH), and wicks it back to the pot or boiler or re boiler. It stagnates the run making
collection difficult, and in severe cases impossible.
Quote:
"Of course. It is a crude devise presumably designed by trial and error without any theoretical consideration. A little external cooling of the top
wall (even by using a small fan) will increase reflux and the product purity."
Again wicking
In a properly designed column reflux control is CRITICAL!
Media packed columns use centering rings to minimize reflux / column wall contact. I have designed several different systems for this purpose.
some ar simple funnel type devices, while others are staggered, downward facing"teeth" welded into the column wall at specific stages, and still
others are complex computer designed "vein plates" that direct relux while allowing maximum vapor / liquid interaction thru the device.
Then you get into Plated columns similar to "cracking towers where plate flow dynamics are precisely controlled. Flow rates, bath depth, and vapor /
liquid interaction are paramount to a properly engineered column.
You HAVE to know exactly what the mole fraction will be at every plate, and reflux control is the only way to determine this. Wier, and dams are
engineered. Not guessed at
Otherwise you have spent a lot of money on scrap.
It took me a year of number crunching to design ONE column.
I don't copy other peoples ideas or designs. I started with a column that has failed for 100 years, and made it work. A concentric, mixed media
(plates, and packing's) fuel ethanol column that runs at reduced pressure. (vacuum)
The numbers are all in the plates, weirs, dams, structured packings that did not exist until I designed them.
Same thing for the columns them selves. They rely on the temperature gradient created at each stage to efficiently power each other.
Things like thermal mass transfer , and material selection... Insulating properties of different compounds, and metals.
Some of my work was based on this article... http://repository.tudelft.nl/assets/uuid:2517a2e2-7376-485c-...
Most of it was done on the computer I am posting from.
Thumpers are fucking easy!
Hillbillies did not know the math, but they did know what they were after, and knew how to get it.
You'll never know how much credence I put in that method. Set a goal, and make it happen.
Edit:
Yes we are discussing a "thumper here but all the dynamics that I listed, and many more I did not make them work.
All the same numbers apply, and wrong is wrong.
[Edited on 3-6-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Luke
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any word on the experiment yet?
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Zombie
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Drank the samples, and have to re run the experiment.
37 bottles of beer on the wall, 31 bottt... shoot.
99 bottles of beer on the wall
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by gsd |
Sorry for barging in late into this thread. I was not following it, but after some discussion with Magpie, I browsed thru'. Here is my take on it for
whatever it is worth.
1) This "thumper" is a contraption for Steam Distillation with an added twist that the heat source i.e. motive steam contains the feed stream as well.
[big snip]
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With all due respect but much of the arguments you make have already been addressed by 'thumper skeptics' like me and Fulmen.
In particular the belief that the thumper represents a steam distillation is simplictic at best.
Imagine a pot of pure EtOH at BP. Now we lead pure water vapour (steam) through it. Do you really believe the vapour leaving the thumper would be 100
% EtOH?
That would only be true if the steam and EtOH were kept rigorously separated, for instance by using the steam in a heating coil placed in the EtOH
bath (or in a heating coil heating the EtOH pot from the outside with a mantle or such like).
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DJF90
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
Imagine a pot of pure EtOH at BP. Now we lead pure water vapour (steam) through it. Do you really believe the vapour leaving the thumper would be 100
% EtOH?
|
This is the fallacy that prevents you from making sense of the thumper. It is not claimed to work under these conditions, nor those using 50% EtOH as
you have referred to previously. Its clear from the VLE diagram that if a thumper is capable of working, it has to start towards the lower end of the
scale.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by DJF90 | | Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
Imagine a pot of pure EtOH at BP. Now we lead pure water vapour (steam) through it. Do you really believe the vapour leaving the thumper would be 100
% EtOH?
|
This is the fallacy that prevents you from making sense of the thumper. It is not claimed to work under these conditions, nor those using 50% EtOH as
you have referred to previously. Its clear from the VLE diagram that if a thumper is capable of working, it has to start towards the lower end of the
scale. |
Exactly.
The ABV in the thumper is continually enriched from a LOW beginning point.
At some point during the process there is an equilibrium where the boiler can no longer enrich the thumper, and the output from the thumper will begin
reducing in ABV, but by that point it (thump) has done it's job.
It's just a fun thing, like baseball cards in the spokes of your bicycle.
Some might argue that they don't make the bike faster but I always got home by dark with them installed.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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gsd
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
Imagine a pot of pure EtOH at BP. Now we lead pure water vapour (steam) through it. Do you really believe the vapour leaving the thumper would be 100
% EtOH?
That would only be true if the steam and EtOH were kept rigorously separated, for instance by using the steam in a heating coil placed in the EtOH
bath (or in a heating coil heating the EtOH pot from the outside with a mantle or such like). |
By definition in steam distillation you inject live steam as a heat source. It would be very funny to distill pure alcohol by injecting live steam
into it (as zombie would say even hillbillies won't do it.)
If you use steam in heating coil (as you should for distilling pure alcohol) then it is no more a steam distillation. It is distillation by using
steam in the coil (or jacket) as an indirect heating medium.
gsd
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by DJF90 | | It is not claimed to work under these conditions, nor those using 50% EtOH as you have referred to previously. |
I didn't claim it worked like that. Learn to read, instead of setting up straw men. Re. the latter you've got previouses and I expect this latest one
won't be the last either.
| Quote: Originally posted by gsd |
If you use steam in heating coil (as you should for distilling pure alcohol) then it is no more a steam distillation. It is distillation by using
steam in the coil (or jacket) as an indirect heating medium.
gsd |
Yawn.
[Edited on 10-3-2015 by blogfast25]
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gsd
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by DJF90 | | It is not claimed to work under these conditions, nor those using 50% EtOH as you have referred to previously. |
I didn't claim it worked like that. Learn to read, instead of setting up straw men. Re. the latter you've got previouses and I expect this latest one
won't be the last either.
| Quote: Originally posted by gsd |
If you use steam in heating coil (as you should for distilling pure alcohol) then it is no more a steam distillation. It is distillation by using
steam in the coil (or jacket) as an indirect heating medium.
gsd |
Yawn.
[Edited on 10-3-2015 by blogfast25] |
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.........
OK. You have your last word.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz........
Gsd
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DJF90
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by DJF90 | | It is not claimed to work under these conditions, nor those using 50% EtOH as you have referred to previously. |
I didn't claim it worked like that. Learn to read, instead of setting up straw men. Re. the latter you've got previouses and I expect this latest one
won't be the last either.
|
It was Magpie and Fulmen that were discussing starting with 50 %. Its easier to remember "who said what" when the thread isn't 22 pages long and
filled with multiple posts in succession by the same author. The only person worse at that than you is zombie, who somehow
managed nearly two pages of posts without a reply.
My point still stands. This is the second (or is it third?) time you've suggested that little thought experiment of yours. It bears
no relevance to the content of this thread; you're considering something that is far removed from the operating conditions of a
thumper yet somehow you believe it provides some proof that your stance on the matter is correct.
I'll say once more that I do not know if a thumper provides a higher EtOH content than simple distillation, but it is not an unreasonable
claim. It may or may not work, and to be honest I do not care either way.
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Zombie
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Quote:
" The only person worse at that than you is zombie, who somehow managed nearly two pages of posts without a reply."
To keep it in context, as is the crux of your post...
Those nearly 2 pages were all replies to statements or questions. I was replying to others. Not making random posts.
It's all good. 
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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DJF90
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I appreciate that zombie. Theres an edit button and you can quote multiple statements in a single post; It would help keep the page count down as each
page displays x number of posts. Some threads are a serious burden to read and this is partly why. Just don't turn into a serial offender like
Blogfast...
See http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=19143 for the forum guidelines. I'm discussing section 9 point 3.
[Edited on 11-3-2015 by DJF90]
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Zombie
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That multiple quoting is something I don't know how to use.
Now that you explained the "edit" button is part of that I will give it a try.
I do understand your point. Thanks...
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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DJF90
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When I find myself in need of quoting multiple posts, I click the "quote" button in the top right corner. That brings you to the reply box/text
editor, where I copy the text including BBcode.and paste it into notepad or other word processor. Rinse and repeat as necessary. After compiling all
the posts I wish to comment on/reply to, I write my reply and then copy/past back into the "quick reply" box at the bottom of the thread. In the FAQ
you will find the BBcode to make text appear in a quote box (as well as various other formatting tools) but to quote a specific post by a member you
need to use the quote button as I mentioned.
Sure, it may not be an elegant approach, but its the best I've come up with so far. It also helps avoid twenty-page threads that are of little use to
any new or existing members not willing to trudge through the swamp in order to find a little quality content.
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Magpie
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To add to an existing post all you need to do is use the "edit" button. But edits must be done within 24hrs, except in the "prepublication forum"
where there's a 30 day window, IIRC.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | | To add to an existing post all you need to do is use the "edit" button. But edits must be done within 24hrs, except in the "prepublication forum"
where there's a 30 day window, IIRC. |
Lets see...
When I find myself in need of quoting multiple posts, I click the "quote" button in the top right corner. That brings you to the reply box/text
editor, where I copy the text including BBcode.and paste it into notepad or other word processor. Rinse and repeat as necessary. After compiling all
the posts I wish to comment on/reply to, I write my reply and then copy/past back into the "quick reply" box at the bottom of the thread. In the FAQ
you will find the BBcode to make text appear in a quote box (as well as various other formatting tools) but to quote a specific post by a member you
need to use the quote button as I mentioned.
Sure, it may not be an elegant approach, but its the best I've come up with so far. It also helps avoid twenty-page threads that are of little use to
any new or existing members not willing to trudge through the swamp in order to find a little quality content.
| Code: | When I find myself in need of quoting multiple posts, I click the "quote" button in the top right corner. That brings you to the reply box/text editor, where I copy the text including BBcode.and paste it into notepad or other word processor. Rinse and repeat as necessary. After compiling all the posts I wish to comment on/reply to, I write my reply and then copy/past back into the "quick reply" box at the bottom of the thread. In the FAQ you will find the BBcode to make text appear in a quote box (as well as various other formatting tools) but to quote a specific post by a member you need to use the quote button as I mentioned.
Sure, it may not be an elegant approach, but its the best I've come up with so far. It also helps avoid twenty-page threads that are of little use to any new or existing members not willing to trudge through the swamp in order to find a little quality content. |
[Edited on 3-11-2015 by Zombie]
I'll try on another forum to get this down..
[Edited on 3-11-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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DJF90
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When you press the quote button, you're provided with the entire post between two bits of BB code, e.g.
[rquote=396532&tid=61566&author=Magpie]To add to an existing post all you need to do is use the "edit" button. But edits must be done within
24hrs, except in the "prepublication forum" where there's a 30 day window, IIRC.[/rquote]
Notice how it starts with [rquote...thread id...author]... that provides the hyperlink back to the original post that you're quoting. Then you have
the content of the post (delete the bits you aren't interested in) and finally, it ends with [/rquote]. Then you can write your reply underneath. If
you want to address each paragraph of the post in separate quotes, just make sure the BBcode is in place: [rquote...thread id...author] at the start,
and [/rquote] at the end.
NB: Notice how you can see the BB code (square brackets) in this post? Thats because I've ticked the "Turn BB code off?" box so you can see whats
happening "behind the scenes".
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Zombie
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Ok, That part I understand,
I am able to reduce to a few sentences or the "meat" of the quote.
I also understand the edit...
I Don't understand how to do Multiple quotes, and add the "quote box".
Even when I try to use the "quick reply", and go back one page to pull a quote, my response disappears.
Forget about shifting numbers up or down. It's all voodoo to me.
I can build an awesome computer, but know rats all about using them.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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