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Winter
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Eclectic
The key clue is that there is insufficient material for a terrorist event.
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I don't think so. That was the mistake, I think.
Clearly if he had half a pound of Nitroglycerin that would have been sufficient to commit a terrorist act. And IMO the police Sgt was dumb to say it
wasn't, if that's actually what he said.
But look at it the other way: if the guy had all this stuff and had never done anything with it other than tinker around in his garage, then it sure
looks like he wasn't trying very hard to hurt anybody, doesn't it?
In other words, what is sufficient material for a terrorist event?
Oh, sorry, that's been answered already, hasn't it?
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franklyn
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@ bio2
Where do you get the half pound figure from I didn't read that in the cited article.
Honestly , the only reason I can see why anyone would intentionally detonate NG
at all is to put on a " show " that justifies earning hazardous duty pay for that
month. NG is very stable chemically and if mixed with acetone it becomes quite
safe even to ordinary bumps and splashes. Poured out and ignited on the driveway
a pound or so of mixed NG and acetone will burn away in less than 2 minutes or
so. Whatever residue may be left can be absorbed with powdered kitty litter ,
swept up into a box and left at the curb for the next garbage collection. Very
similar to how it is administered in tablets as a medicinal pharmaceutical to treat
angina. So much for the drama of bomb disposal.
@ winter
A rule of thumb about prospective rocket propellants is that anything that can be
used to shoot a projectile from a gun can be adapted for use as a rocket fuel.
The solid propellants in common use are as you state but this does not preclude
experimental investigation of the others. On page 280 of The chemistry of Powders
and Explosives it states how PETN may be processed into smokeless propellant
for use in guns. The likely reason this would not find commercial application is the
higher cost relative to other compunds of equal merit. The only " toxic " product
obtained from the deflagration of NaN3 is the Sodium formed which is quite caustic
however the fumes of this are hardly any worse than the smoke of a burning tire.
There's this nice Yahoo group devoted to amateur rocketry using ammonium nitrate.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/NO3-propellants
.
[Edited on 8-7-2007 by franklyn]
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Sauron
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It would be a simple calculation to estimate how many sticks of standard size commercial dynamite of a given % NG it would take to be equivalent to
227 g NG.
Then ask yourself whether or not a makeshift sandbag bunker is going to contain such a blast, or more likely, the sandbags will be turned into dust,
or projectiles.
It does sound, though, that maybe they achieved a detonation of something more than the cap or caps they used to initiate. A #8 or #9 blasting cap
isn't all that impressive, on its own. I would be instructive to see the video.
I would say that is this chap did make 227 g NG and was storing it in his home in a residential community, he was (a) an idiot, and (b) recklessly
endangering himself and his neighbors. This is still however a bif "if" as far as I am concerned. If it really was half a lb NG then the cops were
prudent to blow it in place rather than trying to transport it, although they usually do have containment vessels on vehicles made to do just that. I
bet Denver PD does even if this little Barney Fyfe dept doesn't. I spent some time with Denver's SWAT team a quarter century ago and they seemed to be
pretty sharp. Dunno about the bomb squad.
Franklyn is correct that most high explosives can be modified into or incorporated into propellant mixtures either for firearms, or for rocketry. Just
about everyone will know that double base smokeless powders are NG and NC. More contemporary firearms propellants include the Dynamit Nobel caseless
propellant for the G11 assault rifle, which is based on HMX or RDX or both. Firearms propellants based on PETN have been known for many years.
It does not seem very likely that the individual in question was a rocketeer or a prepellant chemist, now, does it?
Nor does it seem likely that he was a terrorist.
[Edited on 24-6-2007 by Sauron]
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Winter
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
It does not seem very likely that the individual in question was a rocketeer or a propellant chemist, now, does it?
Nor does it seem likely that he was a terrorist.
[Edited on 24-6-2007 by Sauron] |
I am coming more and more to believe that he was not a terrorist, but I am having more trouble deciding whether to believe that he was a rocketeer or
a propellant chemist.
Granted that he doesn't fit the usual description of a chemist doing safe experiments in a controlled environment ... and I'm sure it would be correct
to call him "careless" and "reckless" at best ... but what makes you think he wasn't experimenting with propellants or tinkering with
rockets?
As I've mentioned, I'm open to all sorts of ideas ...
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Eclectic
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MEKP in stabilizer is a catalyst hardener for fiberglass resin. It is NOT an explosive!
The police are looking at EVERTHING in a container and trying to come up with ways it COULD be used illegally. Have we fallen into an alternate
dimension where the scenarios in "Minority Report" and "The Running Man" are actually real, and we now live in a Stalinist police state?
There are exemptions in most explosives manufacturing laws for "inventors" and research activities. The man has several patents. I think he
qualifies as an "inventor".
We don't know WHAT was detonated in the driveway, or what materials were piled and mixed together before being detonated. If some ammonium nitrate
had kerosine, oil, or nitromethane poured on in, and then was detonated, then, yes, there were explosives destroyed in the driveway, but is was the
police that "manufactured" them. Who knows? The "Evidence" has been destroyed.
[Edited on 6-24-2007 by Eclectic]
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Winter
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You can see the video of last Saturday's demolition at this link
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/13515687/detail.html
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Winter
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Well let's suppose he was an inventor, Eclectic ... even if he was "exempt from most explosives manufacturing laws" he would have been bound by local
zoning laws, at least, no?
Or is it ok to manufacture explosives in a garage in a residential area?
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Eclectic
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It's not much of an explosion, is it. But the police got to use their fancy new antiterrorism toys.
It's all a matter of quantities involved, and methods. There is hardly a public danger from a firecracker size explosion. Having materials that
COULD be use to make a sizeable explosive mixture, doesn't mean that they WERE used in such a manner, or were intended for such use.
Yes, if the guy actually made and stored 1/2 lb of PURE nitroglycerine in a residential area, he's an irresponsible lunatic, but we don't know what
was actually destroyed. After all, the police think fiberglass resin catalyst is a dangerous explosive.
I also wonder how big a library had to be searched to come up with the few "scary" books that were mentioned.
[Edited on 6-24-2007 by Eclectic]
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Winter
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Here's more of what I'm thinking; tell me if you think this is plausible or off-base or whatever ...
Swerlein was injured in a car accident a few years ago and he had to retire because he couldn't work anymore. Maybe he got bored hanging around the
house all day and decided to tinker around with some chemistry ... maybe be was interested in rockets before, perhaps as a kid -- he's 50 so he would
have come of age at the right time to be into model rockets as a kid ... clearly he knew what he was doing ... and he spent thousands of dollars on
good glassware and whatever he was doing he was clearly into it ... maybe he's thinking "I could make a better rocket fuel" and he starts going in
that direction ...
and maybe his injury involved a little bit of brain damage, just enough that he could be oblivious to what the neighbors and thinking, what DHS is
thinking, and so on ... and he may be trying unconventional stuff, using ingredients that are "not used in rocket fuel" but perhaps could be? ... I
don't know, I'm just guessing ... and I'm wondering how plausible it sounds to you? Anybody?
I agree the guns and ammo are legal and no big deal; I agree the books and magazines are legal and no big deal either ; I agree most of the chemicals
are legal and he should be allowed to have them; and he should be allowed to do whatever he wants with them provided he doesn't endanger anybody ; and
I'm thinking maybe he IS just a chemist and maybe it's right that he's out on bail and it could well be true that the neighbors have nothing to worry
about ... anybody care to comment on any of this?
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Eclectic
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Well, it was true when I was on the receiving end of this sort of unwanted attention, except that I wasn't working with any pyrotechnic mixtures or
explosive compounds. All I had was lot's of scary scientific and technical "stuff". I was accused of having materials used to make Ricin, a deadly
poison, because I had a gallon of castor bean oil (Ricinus communis). A urethane flexible foam kit threatened a Bhopal type disaster because it
contained deadly isocyanates. And on, and on.
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Winter
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Eclectic
Well, it was true when I was on the receiving end of this sort of unwanted attention, except that I wasn't working with any pyrotechnic mixtures or
explosive compounds. All I had was lot's of scary scientific and technical "stuff". I was accused of having materials used to make Ricin, a deadly
poison, because I had a gallon of castor bean oil (Ricinus communis). A urethane flexible foam kit threatened a Bhopal type disaster because it
contained deadly isocyanates. And on, and on. |
ok gotcha and that's the sort of BS I hate ... I write about this kind of thing in a lot of other contexts ... but at this point I am mostly
interested in a different question:
is there any reason why this guy's claim -- that he's an amateur rocket scientist -- is implausible?
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Eclectic
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Not implausible, but is that actually what he said? Just because he
may have done some experiments with propellants doesn't mean he wasn't working on a LOT of other things.
And the "brain damage" hypothesis isn't necessary either. How may people who end up in technical fields of endeavor have a trace of "Asperger's
Synrdome" or adult autism in their psyche?
But the man is odd, he's different, so "BURN THE WITCH!!!"
[Edited on 6-24-2007 by Eclectic]
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Winter
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is that actually what he said? "amateur rocket scientist" was my phrase not his; he says he's been experimenting with different chemicals to use as
rocket fuels ...
I agree he may have been working on a lot of other things and here's my next question
Do you get the impression that he may have been using "rocketry" as a "cover story" so to speak, a way to explain away "other things"?
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Eclectic
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Well sure. He's being accused of being a terrorist, and asked to explain "why do you have that" and "what do you use that for".
It's like asking a cook what he uses a particular ingredient for, or asking a machinist what he uses a particular piece of stock material for or
asking an artist why do you have that very toxic material (pigment), or asking a chemist why he has chemicals. It's very difficult to answer a
question like that when it's asked by someone completely ignorant of your areas of interest who is looking at your prize possessions with ignorance,
fear, and suspicion. It's all EVIL, HAZARDOUS, material, that no one in their right mind would have.
I don't know that this guy is in the right. I DO know that the way this is being handled is WRONG.
"Give me six lines written by the most honorable of men, and I will find an excuse in them to hang him" - Cardinal Richelieu
Imagine, if you will, the same methods and accusations leveled at ANY university laboratory, with the attitude that it's perfectly reasonable for law
enforcement to seize and destroy ANYTHING that they do not understand. Now bring in an EPA potitical appointee to supervise the local hazmat guys,
who mainly deal with digging up fuel tanks and disposing of old petroleum products.
The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street. <--click here
If this sort of thing continues, then Al Qaeda and their ilk have won the "War on Terror".
[Edited on 6-24-2007 by Eclectic]
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Winter
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well, no! he's NOT being accused of being a terrorist. All along the police have been saying "this doesn't look like it has anything to do with
terrorism" ... they may have been questioning him on what he used certain things for, but he's free on bond now and he's not being questioned at all
as far as I know ...
the charges against him are all for possession of banned substances ... but nobody is accusing him of anything regarding terrorism ... at least nobody
with any legal standing.
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Eclectic
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I mean the initial attitude, and the treatment in the press.
Also, WHAT banned substances?!! What if anything does he have that it is not perfectly legal for him to have? If he has ANYTHING that requires a
license to purchase or own, has the question even been asked "Do you have a license for that"?
In my case I had 25g reference samples of uranium nitrate and thorium nitrate. There is a general license allowing possesion of no more than 15 lbs
of such materials. I had pesticides. I also had a private pesticide applicator's license. Was I asked? NO. My property was simply seized and
destroyed .
[Edited on 6-24-2007 by Eclectic]
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Winter
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what banned substances? nitroglycerin for one, unless I am badly mistaken.
I've been told the reason why he would make NG is because he couldn't get it any other way, and that it's as illegal to make it as it is to buy it.
is my source wrong about that?
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Winter
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meanwhile ... what can you tell me about MEKP?
according to some sources it is very easy to make and very explosive
a comment earlier in this thread says MEKP "is not an explosive" if it's in stabilizer ...
Two questions
[1] How easily can it be separated from the stabilizer?
and
[2] if you did that, would this render the MEKP explosive once again?
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Eclectic
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Quantities, methods, and motives. Do we know how much, if any, he had? Does he fall under an exemption as an inventor or researcher? Is making an
small quantity of nitroglycerin actually illegal? What law. Quote it in it's entirety.
Foolish, maybe. Irresponsible, maybe. It sort of depends on whether or if he made 2.5 grams or 250grams. Was what was found pure 100%, or was it 1%
diluted in a 250ml of solvent to stabilize it?
The MEKP is a non issue. ANYONE with basic knowlege of chemistry can make acetone peroxide or MEKP. And I'm not going to tell you how if you can't
figure it out for yourself. Acetone peroxide is the "Shoe Bomber" explosive. MEKP is less sensitive when pure, and is totally innocuous when
compounded as a polyester resin curative.
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Winter
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Don't worry -- I'm not asking you to tell me how to make anything! I'm just trying to understand what's gone on here, then maybe I can help my
readers make some sense of it.
The MEKP questions are not necessarily related to this case -- I've run into conflicting discussions of it in the past and I'm thinking here maybe you
can help me get some clarification on it. That's all.
I didn't see anything about acetone peroxide in this story but I've come across it in the past -- and I agree that it doesn't have any bearing on this
case; on the other hand I wasn't the one who mentioned it. ;-)
Speaking of motives ... the police say Swerlein never expressed any animosity towards any group or individual, had never chosen any target or anything
like that ... and for these reasons they are not treating it as terrorism-related. The only stated motive according to the man's lawyer was that he
was educating himself about rocket fuels ... and this may be true ... I dunno, that's why I'm asking.
According to the press reports I've read they said he had half a pound of nitroglycerin and 130 grams of sodium azide but I do not recall seeing any
other quantities mentioned... so as you pointed out there are still a lot of unanswered questions ...
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Eclectic
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Acetone peroxide and MEKP are in the same family, one made with acetone, one with methyl ethyl ketone, both common innocuous hardware, paint store,
building supply solvents. So the law enforcement hysteria regarding MEKP in stabilizer is directly related to the "Shoe Bomber"
And how 'bout the deadly dihydrogen monoxide he had? That kills thousands of people every year.
Dihydrogen Monoxide FAQ Site. Click here.
[Edited on 6-24-2007 by Eclectic]
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Pyridinium
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I think if one were so inclined, they could do terrorist acts with many different things in the typical household. Gasoline comes to mind.
Many things people do every day are in legal "gray areas". That's because there are laws against nearly every kind of behavior. It's actually kind
of scary, although the intent was probably just to give authorities the ability to grab people they knew were troublemakers. Sort of like bringing Al
Capone down on tax evasion.
I'm sure it's technically illegal to possess incendiary devices or their ingredients. If you possess gasoline, you indeed have a key ingredient for
an incendiary device. Again, it's a question of intent. Could someone figure out how to remove the stabilizer from MEKP? Perhaps. Destabilizing an
organic peroxide is a pretty good way to maim or kill yourself, but it could theoretically be done.
I believe the police are taking the best approach when they say they're really trying to find out what it is he was up to, instead of just assuming
the worst (which, as you can find by reading this forum, has happened to at least a couple of people on here).
Winter, I will say your effort to get at the truth on this case is commendable. It shines out far above the average journalist, who just goes around
making statements like "200 blasting agents" and then never does a follow up to correct it.
As far as whether the individual things Swerlein had could be used to hurt someone, yes, they could, but again it's a matter of intent. Guns, knives,
rocks, lighter fluid, rags, paper, hay bails, bottles, cars, etc. etc. ... all are common items, yet they're all potentially deadly weapons in the
hands of someone determined to cause harm.
As the others have said, I think it's a matter not so much of what someone has, or even quantity (well, within a reason- 5 g doesn't concern me at all
with regard to criminal intent; 250 g of NG is hazy; 2.5 kg, then I'm worrying), but a matter of those things *plus* a clearly demonstrated intent.
If the guy was found with NG + diagrams of bridges and such, I'd really worry.
It all comes down to the constellation of things that form a complete picture. Obviously, revenge books in the guys' house aren't reflecting well on
him. I understand there are some amateur chemists who won't even keep a single decongestant pill in their home for fear of being charged with
conspiracy to make meth.
Personally, I don't think a man this smart would have things sent directly to his home if he meant to do harm. I watched a documentary recently about
a true 'mad bomber' who was very calculating, in fact it took years to catch the guy. He never had anything sent to his home, and in fact none of the
stuff used in his crimes was kept in his dwelling. He knew he was doing wrong, and he took great efforts to hide it. When the authorities finally
caught him, they had the guy so dead to rights it wasn't funny. It was, as they say in the trade, completely righteous.
Any amateur chemist knows, when you order lab items and chemicals from the Internet or mail order, the first thing that's going to happen if there's
any sort of problem in the neighborhood is that the authorities are going to show up at *your* place. The reasoning is, well I'm not out to harm
anyone, so I should be OK. Maybe.
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Winter
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Thanks very much for this, Pyridinium ... nice to see such kind words especially after the way this thread started ... unfortunately for all of us, it
is not difficult to "shine out far above the average journalist", so I won't let that particular compliment go to my head 
thanks also to everyone else who's been helping me here ... I have more questions and if anyone's interested in fielding them I'll be most grateful
...
~~~
A common public misconception says you wouldn't use explosives AS rocket fuel because they would destroy your rocket ... I'm getting the idea from you
guys (and others) that you might want to use an explosive IN rocket fuel to make it more powerful ... is that an accurate way of putting it?
In other words you might not like the idea of a rocket powered by (for example) TATP; and I don't like that idea very much either BTW, but on the
other hand you might want to throw a pinch of TATP in with some other things, and as long as you keep the concentration of TATP below a certain limit
it won't explode ... but it will give the fuel a bit of a kick it wouldn't have otherwise ... is that a reasonable way of looking at it?
~~~
I'm sorry if these questions seem so dumb -- I'm still learning!
and I'm appreciating the answers very much.
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bio2
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Winter, I also appreciate your search for the truth which seems to be sorely lacking in todays media climate.
Little did I realize that when I posted your article that this
would take on a life of it's own.
Even though most of us here on Science Madness are
"amateur" scientists the wealth of knowledge here is
immense. Knowledge for it's own sake and enjoyment is truly a wonderful thing.
Nowdays in my semi-retirement when someone asks me if I am really a mad scientist, I just smile and sheepishly say, yes.
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Sauron
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Sodium azide is NOT an explosive nor is it an ingredient in an explosive mixture AFAIK nor it it a propellant or rocket fuel.
It can be used to make many many other compounds.
A SMALL number of those compounds are primary explosives, such as lead azide or cyanuric triazide. Such explosives are used as initiators (detonators)
for secondary explosives (boosters) and high explosives. Most primary explosives are by definiton rather sensitive to shock, heat, and friction and
therefore are hard to handle. Care has to be taken in their preparation not to let larger crystals form in many cases because the internal stress of
the srystal can be enough to cause explosion.
AFAIK it is not illegal to possess sodium azide in any quantity nor is it an unsafe material to store even in a residential area. I would much rather
live next to a house containing a 200 Kg drum of NaN3 than a house containing a 200 L drum of gasoline, or 40 five gallon cans of it.
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