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Sauron
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I think the metal method will only work at a reasonable rate with elemental iron (or steel) if the metal is finely divided, like powder, lathe chips,
etc. Purely a function of reactive surface area. If you use larger chunks then peace will break out before the Cl2 goes away...and imagine how long
that wll be.
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12AX7
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Lots of stirring will help. And burning metal is always good for some heat, which will speed it up a bit, too.
Chlorinating FeCl2 to FeCl3 may not be a very effective way, I don't know (a fine bubbler will be of help), but I can see iron corroding quite
quickly. For that matter, moist iron shavings would work well. Or if you want to get sciencey about it, direct synthesis of FeCl3 anhydrous, but
that's probably beyond the scope of things here.
Tim
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Sauron
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This is a field expedient situation, no whistles, no bells, no dogs, no ponies, bare-bones quick & dirty. In fact if it was any more primitive
they'd have to pass it off to the Marines.
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Twospoons
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Doesn't seem to me like the rate should be that much of an issue - just turn the valves down a bit ! Its not like this is coming off an industrial
stream, needing X kgs an hour to be disposed of.
I'd guessed there might be a lot of scrap iron available - thats why I suggested this process
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Sauron
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I doubt that @Sarge wants to make a career out of this, so the rate is a bit of an issue I'd guess. Consider: there's up to 150 lbs Cl2 in each of
those (nine) tanks. If it takes say 1 hour to react 1 lb Cl2 then that's 150 hours per tank or 1350 hours total. I doubt that your scheme will handle
1 lb Cl2 per hour, and it requires labor and energy to turn scrap metal into a high surface area form. If Cl2 reacted that well with steel it would
east through those tanks it is in in a New York minute, and obviously - it does not.
The organization @Sarge belongs to (putatively) has been known to move units around from time to time, especially armor units, and so @Sarge probably
needs to get this done and do something else asap. So I would think that a method that can handle multiple lbs. of Cl2 per hour at lowest possible
cost would be preferable.
But I'm sure he appreciates your suggestion, and he did say they are evaluating it.
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Twospoons
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The Cl2 does not react directly with the steel. It is used to oxidise Fe2+ to Fe3+, and the Fe3+ reacts with the steel, creating more Fe2+. If
there's no water in the Cl tanks (which there shouldn't be) then nothing will happen.
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Sauron
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All right, then ask yourself the following:
1. How much water is required for solutions of appropriate concentration to handle 1350 lbs Cl2 in a reasonable amount of time?
2. Is such an amount of water available in the desert?
I do realize that this is self regenerating reaction but there is going to be a little evaporation problem in the desert with the requisite solvent
(water) don't you think?
The Ca(OH)2 to bleaching powder process uses almost no water, unlike your proposal or (AFAIK) NaOH. I think NaOH even in the unavailable water
solution will require a lot of cooling in order to not produce sodium chlorate rather than hypochlorite as main product and I do not think they need
to be manufacturing more material for improvised explosives where they are. Nor is there any great demand for weed killer in the DESERT.
Logistics and logic argue for a nearly dry process. Water is scarce and cooling absurd in the desert.
Personally I'd dig a pit, lay down some ribbon charges, pile sand on top till there was an artidicial dune sufficient to contain, and destroy.
Chlorine would seep out but slowly and dissipate and in the middle of nowhere who cares? But, that's just me.
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Twospoons
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SsgtHAZMAT has to drink something. He's probably got water trucks arriving every day ( though beer trucks would be preferrable). He's already got a
barrel full with CL2 bubbling into it ( water, not beer).
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Sauron
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Oh I'm sure they have water to drink and even to take an occasional shower with, that does not mean that they have so much that they can squander it
needlessly when dry or nearly dry alternatives are at hand.
Never been involved in military logistics, have you? One of my friends heped write desert warfare doctrine for the U.S.Infantry Center in the 1980s,
Col.Jack Sullivan. I have a pretty good idea what Jack would think about this. No desk soldier, Jack, he was a combat commander in WWII in the 442nd,
the Nisei, "Go for Broke", most decorated unit in the ETO.
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SsgtHAZMAT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
This is a field expedient situation, no whistles, no bells, no dogs, no ponies, bare-bones quick & dirty. In fact if it was any more primitive
they'd have to pass it off to the Marines. |
Water, we have some but not huge amounts. Showers, every now and then. My personal recod is 24 days or so with out one.
Oh and check this out... we are Marines!!!
Keep the ideas comming guys!! This is good stuff and we are looking at everything you are saying.
[Edited on 13-3-2007 by SsgtHAZMAT]
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leu
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In difficult circumstances such as Anbar, ideas can be helpful; but what's really needed are facts such as:
The solubility of chlorine at 0 ° C is 1.46 grams in 100 ml of water, 1.25 grams at 3 ° C, 1.08 grams at 6 ° C, .96 grams at 9 ° C, .94 grams at
9.4 ° C, .98 grams at 10 ° C, .918 grams at 12 ° C, .836 grams at 15 ° C, .716 grams at 20 ° C, .641 grams at 25 ° C, .572 grams at 30 ° C,
.459 grams at 40 ° C, .393 grams at 50 ° C, .329 grams at 60 ° C, .279 at 70 °C, .223 grams at 80 °C and .127 grams at 90 ° C .
Contrast the relatively complicated equipment needed to create bleaching powder versus that needed to produce bleach from caustic soda; a polyethylene
barrel with some water in it  Bleach can be up to 15% chlorine so the amount of
water needed can be easily calculated Another fact that is probably unknown to
the Corps and seemingly to any other member of Science Madness is that sunlight tends to decompose aqueous chlorine, so the chlorine water must be
kept in the shade  Sodium Carbonate, also known as washing soda can also be used
to create bleach similarly to sodium hydroxide; but then there is going to be the issue of effervescing bleach from the carbon dioxide generated by
the reaction  It may be easier to obtain washing soda as opposed to caustic soda
under the circumstances, that's a decision that must be made by those in charge 
Chemistry is our Covalent Bond
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Sauron
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I did look at commercial bleaching powder processes and unless I missed something I saw essencially towers, columns, big pipes and usually more than
one of them, containing slaked lime, and arranged to pass chlorine through the slaked lime, period. There was no heating. There were provisions for
agitation. In my view the agitation was optional and served to hasten the process and improve the yield, but the yield was always held to 35%
available chlorine although much higher % could be obtained in excess of 50%. We know from the lit. that in the lab 90% is possible.
Since the yield is largely immaterial here, being assumed to be 50% but anyway compensated for with more slaked lime if necessary, my suggestion of 55
gal drums modified to be such improvised expedient towers, sans agitation, and plumbed in series stands. The saturation point of the lime is easily
observed in a bubble at the end. Just watch for color change.
If the Ca(OH)2 method is for whatever reason deemed undesirable, then I would tend to favor the iron chloride method because it will utilize far less
water than the lye or washing soda method. Also the end product will he harmless rather than sodium chlorate - which those processes will produce sans
cooling in desert conditions. I don't have to tell this forum what sodium chlorate is capable of and I doubt I need to remind the USMC in the sand
about chlorates either.
The iron chloride method uses less water because it's a cyclic regenerative process. You need enough FeCl2 and water to get started and then you
convert the FeCl3 made back into FeCl2 by adding iron/steel) and then you start over. Other than evaporative losses, the initial water is all that is
needed. Those losses are topped up daily or as needed.
But I still say the Ca(OH)2 methos is worth a try. In fact I'd favor trying all three methods on a smaller scale and find out which one is best. I
don't think any of us has ever done any of these on a lab scale except for the NaOH/Cl2 routine which we use to make hypochlorite solutions fresh. And
when we do we use something even scarcer than shower water in the desert: ICE, because that is done near freezing.
My feeling is that the 2 FeCl3+ Fe -> 3 FeCl2 step will be the rate limiting one esp is the metal is not finely divided. That can be managed by
having multiple barrels for that step for each barrel containing the Cl2 absorbing FeCl2 according to 4 FeCl2 + Cl2 -> 4 FeCl3.
That also tells us you need 4 mols FeCl2 for every mol Cl2 in the initial batch, purely a function of batch size. What I do not know is the optimum
molarity of the solution required, maybe the member who dreamed this one up can work that out? Or anyone else? If not I'd look at the saturated
solutions of FeCl2 and FeCl3 and try whichever is lower.
No offense was intended to the Corps, I was just being a wise ass. Members of my immediate family served in the Corps in Korea, two of them,
fortunately both came in good shape and they are still alive today.
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SsgtHAZMAT
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None was taken!
Heck, you should see the equipment we have to use most times. We tend to get the Army and Navy "hand-me-downs."
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12AX7
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I agree with the lime process- it's basic so should absorb Cl2 reasonably, and has plenty of surface area. It doesn't reduce the oxidizing power
though, and my can of the material has a strong smell of chlorine when opened. It'll have to be disposed of somehow (sold or otherwise). In the case
of FeCl3, the solution can be left out in the sun to dry, with some lime (ground limestone is okay) added to neutralize the inevitable acid fumes and
turn it into harmless rust.
Tim
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Sauron
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OFF TOPIC!
Don't I know it. My friend the late Gene Stoner was a China Marine, finished WWII at Tsingtao way up north. Anyway in the 50s he designed a little
thing called AR-15 that became M16 (you probably have heard of it) and this made him rich. Once Colt took over Gene went over to Cadilla Gage and
designed a little thing called the Stoner 63 expressly for the USMC, he had a retired colonel on the payroll and the ear of the Commandant and he knew
what the Corps wanted. This was a beautiful weapon system. Basically the bolt system of the AR-15/M16 but the gas system of the AK-47 so the best of
both. Also Gene made it modular so that by changing parts -- without any toold required mind you - the rifle could be changed to a LMG (box fed), a
LMG (belt fed), a MMG on tripod, a MMG for vehicle with solenoid, or a short barreled carbine with folding stock. This was in 1963 remember, a belt
fed 5.56 was not in the Army's mind for another 20 years.
The USMC unsurprisingly loved it, tested it, wanted to adopt it and that's when the trouble started. The Army pitched a bitch and McNamara the SecDef
said NO. So the Corps got the M16 that they didn't want and had to wait for the Army to reinvent the idea of a SAW for a couple decades. The Stoner 63
was adopted in belt fed role only, with a short fluted barrel by the Navy SEALs who used it with distinction until just after Desert Storm. It was a
whole lot lighter than the M249 and a lot handier.
I had the idea of reviving the Stoner in 2003 for the Thai Army and I got together with Gene Stoner (retired then) and Reed Knight (maker of the SR-25
sniper rifle you guys are now using) and we modified a dozen original Stoners to use the M855 ammunition (fast twist barrels) and the belt feed to use
FN's SAW links and a few other mods. The orig.Stoner bipod was crappy so we put on a M14E2 bipod, much better. Made an adapter to use the SAW belt box
(though we did not much care for it.) We put these through the Thai small arms trials in rifle and SAW configurations and did quite well. In fact in
accuracy trials off machine rest we beat the Colt M16A2 with out 1964 1 turn in 9 inch barrels which seriously ticked off Colt. Indeed we beat
everyone else in that category except for the Swiss SIG.
However Colt prevailed politically till the Thai economy took a tumble in 97 and the budget went away. This was my swan song in the arms business
after an ilustrious (and notirous) 25 year career. I left DC for Thailand shortly before Saddam invaded Kuwait so I sat on the bench for all the
subsequent fun, drinkiong beer and letting Thai cuties have their way with me. Now I can no longer drink beer and Thai cuties mostly call me Papa (and
mean GrandPa.)
End of Off Topic
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SsgtHAZMAT
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You should have spoken to my friend in Thailand, Al Eberhardt. If anyone can effect the Thais', it Al. He's lied there since the early 60's.
He frequents a great x-pat bar on Sukhumvit.
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Sauron
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I know Al well though I haven't run into him for a few years. His office is or was on Soi 31 Sukhumvit Rd. and he hangs out in the painter bars
(Millionaire's Row) of Soi 33. Known to his many friends and admirers as Al NeverHard.
He would not know me as Sauron however. Anyway I rarely make the rounds of the Sukhumvit bars any more, preferring to sit in my comfy judge's chair in
front of my monitor since I can't drink any more.
How in the world do you know Al?
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Rosco Bodine
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For information
related to the conditions for urea being used for the destruction of hypochlorite see US4508697 , US2784057 .
You could bypass the urea method entirely to keep things simple , just bubble your chlorine into alternate tanks of NaOH to produce sodium
hypochlorite , and then decompose the sodium hypochlorite using sodium sulfite ......
all of the chlorine becomes NaCl ....and the byproduct
is sodium sulfate .
[Edited on 14-3-2007 by Rosco Bodine]
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unionised
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OK, I realise that this might not be remotely practical, but it's just an idea.
As has been pointed out, you do have water because there are people there who drink it; but you don't have lots.
The reaction of Cl2 with a base just gives you a different oxidising agent; what you really want is to reduce it to chloride. Fe wool would work
nicely, if you had the odd ton of it and a big bucket of water to put it in.
When the people have finished with the water it is no longer fit for drinking or washing but it contains a significant quantity of a reducing reagent-
the one Rosco just mentioned.
How many people would it take to generate enough urine to destroy this much chlorine in a reasonable time?
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12AX7
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Geez, that'd take years! Isn't urine roughly 0.1% urea (or was it 1%)?
Tim
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franklyn
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The method used by E.O.D. for disposal of HCN , believe it or not , is to vent it
outdoors in a controlled manner at an isolated location sequestered just for this.
I do not specifically recall if chlorine is dealt with in the same manner since being
denser than air it would tend to hug the ground. A not too irresponsible method
would be to drop the tanks off a boat some miles from the coast , shooting a
hole in each just as it is released for submergence. Have any friends that are
SEAL's ?
.
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Sauron
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I think we can forget about urine, and I rather doubt that hypochlorite (Na or Ca) really needs to be destroyed. Recent events demonstrated that the
bad guys in the sandbox can and have exploited tank chlorine as a weapon. Hypochlorite does not have the same potential. However if higher echelons
decide that hypochlorite requires further treatment then the technology is described above.
@franklyn's suggestion is the most practical one, mirroring my own idea (described well above) of digging a pit, laying down the cylinders with
cutting charges, filling in the pit and building a mound on top then detonating. Some Cl2 will seep out gradually, but so what if it is in the middle
of nowhere?
Somewhat more easily, put the cylinders out at 1000 m, with the wind blowing away from your position and into unpopulated areas, and put a round of
.50 M2 AP into the tanks one by one, pausing between tanks until the resulting "agent cloud" has dissipated. The danger zone will be well defined and
it's just a matter of meeoorology. However, this might be politically unacceptable or at least involve decision-taking at a civilian level and
host-government level that make it a non starter. The same applies to @franklyn's initiative.
Anyway @Sarge already said he can't ship these things, the inference being they are unsafe or at least of indeterminate safety at this point so I
doubt that the USN would much care to have them on a warship even transiently.
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SsgtHAZMAT
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We thought about just dumping it in the ocean. And I liked the idea of making them float a little then taking the Barrett to them. But we don’t
want to move them very far. You would not believe what they were trying to do, so we do not even want to give them the chance to re capture any of
this stuff.
We find all kinds of things here, BTW, you should see the latest stuff we captured. I'll post about it later, with a different type of question.
Oh and you have to love the guys that write MSDS's. I have one here in my hand for some captured stuff that reads;
"Keep away from heat and flames as this would make a big mess. (But remember that above it said this stuff will not burn anyway.) Keep container
closed unless you need some."
WTF???
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Sauron
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Ronnie Barrett (Murphiesboro, TN) is another old friend. About 25 years worth.
My patent licensee Arms Tech in AZ has a nice sound suppressor for that .50 rifle.
At least that MSDS author seems to have had a sense of humor although it does sound like he was drunk as a skunk when he wrote it.
See out thread about the dangers of Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO, an insidious compound all pervasive in the environment. We are ciculating a petition to
ban it.
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Twospoons
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Hey SsgtHAZMAT - you're not sitting on a source of brackish water, are you? IIRC a lot of sandy deserts do have water underground - just not
drinkable water. If thats the case maybe you could drive a pipe deep underground and bleed in the Cl2.
Helicopter: "helico" -> spiral, "pter" -> with wings
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