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JJay
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Walmart has some cheap ammonium nitrate cold packs sold individually in the outdoor section.
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yobbo II
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Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  | | Wall mart cold packs seem to be cal ammonium Nitrate here in Canada still, just add some ammonia to precipitate out the cal, vacuum filter and dry.
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How does that work. Is the 'cal ammonium Nitrate' a double salt or it it calcium carbonate (lime) + ammonium nitrate mixed.
Yob
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JJay
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Calcium carbonate is chalk; lime is calcium hydroxide.
I'm also curious about exactly what calcium ammonium nitrate is.
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yobbo II
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| Quote: Originally posted by JJay | Calcium carbonate is chalk; lime is calcium hydroxide.
I'm also curious about exactly what calcium ammonium nitrate is. |
I did not know that 'lime' was calcium hydroxide. It tends to be used loosely by lay people for a lot of things that are calcium related.
Ground limestone, rocks composed of mainly calcium carbonate that are ground up, is refered to as 'lime' (for spreading on land) by the consumer and
industry making it.
Calcium carbonate rocks (lime stone) when heated strongly, convert to CaO. The CaO is refered to as 'burned lime'.
When water is added to the CaO, the product, calcium hydroxide, is called hydrated lime. Heat is evolved in this process.
'Lime wash' or 'white wash' is calcium hydroxide and water.
This is in europe anyways, perhaps different in USA.
Calcium Ammonium Nitrate (CAN) used as fertilizer is usually a physical mixture of ammonium nitrate and ground limestone (crushed calcium carbonate
rocks). Sometimes dolomite is used instead of the ground limestone (USA?).
There is an actual double salt that should be called ammonium calcium nitrate that is used for fertilizer (not very common if it exists at all in
europe). It is obviously different from the physical mixture of Ca carbonate and AN.
ACN = H4CaN4O9
Will ammonium calcium nitrate, when dissolved in water, cause the temperature to drop? Can it be used in cold packs?
http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.146035.html
There was a picture of ammonium calcium nitrate fertilizer on the board lately, what thread was it in?
[Edited on 3-5-2017 by yobbo II]
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XeonTheMGPony
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| Quote: Originally posted by yobbo II | | Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony | | Wall mart cold packs seem to be cal ammonium Nitrate here in Canada still, just add some ammonia to precipitate out the cal, vacuum filter and dry.
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How does that work. Is the 'cal ammonium Nitrate' a double salt or it it calcium carbonate (lime) + ammonium nitrate mixed.
Yob |
It is a double salt, AN + CaN it is literally the floor sweepings of fertilizer plants, I have found dirt, bugs in it in the past!
Precipitate out the Ca by adding ammonia hydroxide to convert it to all NH4NO3 and CaOH.
and yes it gets nice and cold, warm day you get frost on the tube.
[Edited on 3-5-2017 by XeonTheMGPony]
[Edited on 3-5-2017 by XeonTheMGPony]
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JJay
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| Quote: Originally posted by yobbo II |
I did not know that 'lime' was calcium hydroxide. It tends to be used loosely by lay people for a lot of things that are calcium related.
[Edited on 3-5-2017 by yobbo II] |
It is true that you can buy "garden lime" consisting of calcium carbonate. They also sell dolomite as lime sometimes. But really, lime is supposed to
be calcium hydroxide; you can avoid confusion by calling it hydrated lime. Slaked lime is calcium oxide. Calcium carbonate is chalk, but hardly anyone
wants to spread chalk on their garden, so it is sometimes sold under the name lime for marketing reasons.
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Melgar
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So much bad info here.
First, the easiest way to tell which one you have is to melt a prill to decomposition on foil, then carefully smell the vapors. NH4NO3 usually has a
slight NOx smell to it if you evaporate it quickly. There's also N2O released, which has no smell, but only if you're very careful with heating it
will there be no smell at all. Urea decomposes to a white solid, releasing ammonia. The white solid is cyanuric acid and has a MUCH higher
decomposition temperature, but it will all decompose eventually. Warning: cyanuric acid decomposition could potentially release cyanide, although
cyanate is more likely. Ca/NH4 nitrate will leave behind a white ash that will not decompose even if you heat it to glowing. There's your 30-second
test for cold packs. You're welcome, Mr. Pinkman.
Calcium/ammonium nitrate is just nitric acid neutralized with a mixture of calcium carbonate and ammonia; calcium carbonate being a much cheaper base.
Lime can refer to many calcium compounds, usually calcium carbonate (lime or limestone), calcium hydroxide (hydrated lime), and calcium oxide
(quicklime, slaked lime). Calcium oxide is made by calcining calcium carbonate with a release of CO2. Calcium hydrate is made by reacting calcium
oxide with water, and incidentally, is a major component of cement and mortar. So is quicklime, I believe. Ca/NH4 nitrate isn't floor sweepings,
it's just nitric acid neutralized with unprocessed limestone, with all the impurities included. They send the same shit to farms too; that's
basically all the factory makes.
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yobbo II
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In more 'scientific circles' lime is calcium hydroxide.
Lime is a very old and very broadly used term.
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_lime
Agricultural lime, also called aglime, agricultural limestone, garden lime or liming, is a soil additive made from pulverized limestone or chalk. The
primary active component is calcium carbonate.
Million of tons of calcium carbonate (ground limestone or ground chalk) are spread on fields each year throughout the world.
"Slaked lime is calcium oxide."
Slaked lime is calcium hydroxide, the calcium oxide having been 'slaked' with water.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_hydroxide
Calcium oxide (burned lime (heated calcium carbonate)) is also called quick lime.
(my neck of the woods anyways)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_oxide
Most CAN around the world is composed of a physical mixture of ammonium nitrate + (shall we say) 'lime'. This lime is usually calcium carbonate
(ground up limestone or chalk rock). Sometimes dolomite is used.
The double salt (ACN) is not so common (IMO). It may be available in your neck of the woods of course.
Can anyone post a picture or link to a fertilizer bag of ACN?
Perhaps quick lime should be renamed 'Heat-up-me-dinner-lime'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-heating_can
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yobbo II
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| Quote: Originally posted by Melgar |
, I believe. Ca/NH4 nitrate isn't floor sweepings, it's just nitric acid neutralized with unprocessed limestone, with all the impurities included.
They send the same shit to farms too; that's basically all the factory makes.
Calcium/ammonium nitrate is just nitric acid neutralized with a mixture of calcium carbonate and ammonia; calcium carbonate being a much cheaper base.
Lime can refer to many calcium compounds, ......................
............... I believe. Ca/NH4 nitrate isn't floor sweepings, it's just nitric acid neutralized with unprocessed limestone, with all the impurities
included. They send the same shit to farms too; that's basically all the factory makes.
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You forgot to mention the ammonia in the formula for 'the shit' fertilizer above. Is this correct. Its just calcium nitrate if there is no ammonia.
What is the formula of this {Calcium/ammonium nitrate} you speak of. (excluding any shit there may be there).
Is it this double salt or something else.
http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.146035.html
To give the formula from the above page:
H4CaN4O9
Does this double salt appear in cold packs?
Will this double salt lower the temperature when you dissolve it in water (is it even suitable for cold packs from this point of view at all)?
Calcium Ammonium Nitrate (CAN) is a loosely used term.
What a ramble of a thread.
Yob
[Edited on 3-5-2017 by yobbo II]
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yobbo II
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_ammonium_nitrate
wiki has some good confusing info on Calcium Ammonium Nitrate. It is written is consusion style so that you do not know when they say calcium ammonium
nitrate are they referring to calcium carbonate + ammonium nitrate (physical mixture) or the double salt ammonium calcium nitrate.
Attached is a description of 'calcium ammonium nitrate' CAN containing no calcium!!
EDIT:
The thread that shows the bag of Double salt, Ammonium Calcium Nitrate fertilizer (says it on the bag) is here:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=73415
Picture reposted below.
This stuff is (imo) very rare in europe. Could be wrong.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/files.php?pid=480681&...
A thesies on ammonium nitrate based fertilizers is attached. You'll be 'black in the face' reading it.
It's all rather complicated with lots of small amounts of different additives that can be used for various purposes.
Attachment: YaraBela_CAN_27_(S)_20170503.pdf (481kB)
This file has been downloaded 537 times
[Edited on 3-5-2017 by yobbo II]
Attachment: properti.pdf (6.9MB)
This file has been downloaded 978 times
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CharlieA
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In Nov. I bought 2 instant cold packs from Target for about $3.50 with tax. They totaled about 210g of pale yellow spheres. I haven't done anything
with them yet.
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symboom
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Oops
The previous page post quote
Wall mart cold packs seem to be cal ammonium Nitrate here in Canada still, just add some ammonia to precipitate out the cal, vacuum filter and dry.
If any one has cold packs from walmart the brand that they sell is ace brand by 3m which contains calcium ammonium nitrate just so you know
Thats what it seems like to me
Cheap urea: doller store
Semi cheap calcium ammonium nitrate :walmart
Expensive ammonium nitrate :walgreens
Test for nitrate melt it on a piece of copper
If it is nitrate it will turn blue urea does not
[Edited on 22-7-2017 by symboom]
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