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Agari
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Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  | CharlieA, in this thread, I think your plea for a safe pace is called for, and that comes from an amateur whose intrest began with energetic
materials.
I do hope the OP reconsider his quest, or at least takes a very slow pace in learning and applying the vast amount of knowledge and care that an
amatuer hobbiest must surely have in order to even try to safely produce and work with an insidious killer like phosgene. Most amateurs and home
chemistry enthusiasts would not even consider attempting such things, myself included.
In my more careless experiances, I have had organic peroxides explode unexpectedly in close proximity, gassed myself with nitrogen oxides, and even
flirted with hazards such as hydrazine and azides, but still I would not have dared play with a devil like phosgene. And maybe some will say I am
exaggerating the risks of this gas.
Perhaps it is "Not THAT bad," sure, when compared to modern nerve agents and war gasses, but it can and will easily be the unsuspecting death of you,
and any poor soul unlucky enough to catch a few breaths of it. And that's if the attempt is successful. Carbon monoxide is a sneaky killer as well,
and even a system failure resulting in a room full of chlorine could spell disaster.
[Edited on 11-10-2015 by Bot0nist] |
Perhaps I will try using triphosgene to obtain the gas,rather than chlorine and carbon monoxide, or at least use low amounts of formic&sulfuric
acid if I do in fact go for my old method.
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Agari
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| Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist |
I do hope your safety checks and PPE serve you as well as your sarcasm and disregard for what seemed to me to be honest and legitimate concern.
Good luck, and be safe Agari, and I mean that truely and with no ill will.
[Edited on 11-10-2015 by Bot0nist] |
I was talking about the part where he states that he worked for what used to be Aldrich Co.
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Pyrovus
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| Quote: Originally posted by Agari | | Quote: Originally posted by jnik | There is another possible way (probably more safe) to use triphosgene, which is a white-crystall solid with melting point near 80 C. After hydrolysis
it will give you the desired compoud - phosgene. Such a solid substance much easier to handle.
To produce it you need to chlorinate dimethylcarbonate in a flask under irradiation of sunlight spectrum lamp with increase of temperature step by
step from 40 to 80 C. Byproducts (HCl and unreacted chlorine) coud be neutralised with NaOH + Na2SO3 solution. End of reaction - green colour of gas
phase above the liquid surface / yellow colour of the reaction mixture. Possible issues - crystallization of triphosgene in connection tubes and
condenser.
Safety:
Actually phosgene is not THAT bad, so it will not kill you immediatly (good news). You have some time to neutralise yourself and lab. But be careful,
phosgene will decrease your ability to sence it after exposure!!! (bad news) If you smell the substance, then you must stop process and find a
leakage.
Implementing such a proccess you shoud prepare your best friend: respirator, gloves, neutralisation solutions (5-10% NH3 in water and/or organic
amines like diethylamine) and alcohol (to inhale and drink). |
I have serious doubts about inhaling ethanol when phosgene may be present in my lungs,correct me if I am wrong,but I'm pretty sure it will form HCl
and other compounds.
Edit:Or MAYBE triphosgene is commercially available,nevermind,dimethyl carbonate is also commercially available.
[Edited on 10-10-2015 by Agari] |
In the scheme of things HCl is not that bad. Sure, it's not a good idea to make a habit of breathing it in, but compared to phosgene it's pretty
benign. HCl will hydrolyse proteins, but acid hydrolysis of proteins tends to be pretty slow. Phosgene on the other hand will quite effectively
cross-link proteins by reacting with the nucleophilic NH2 groups, which will among other things drastically alter their structure, rendering them
non-functional, and when enough critical proteins are affected, cell death results. Breathing in nucleophiles to react with the phosgene before it can
react with the proteins in your lungs would prevent far more damage than any produced HCl would cause, the issue of course is how much phosgene can be
eliminated this way, especially since breathing in ethanol and/or ammonia/alkylamines is not that healthy and thereby limits the amounts that can be
used. Best not to get into that situation in the first place, in my opinion.
Never accept that which can be changed.
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Darkstar
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I've had lungs full of HCl before. And as unpleasant of an experience as it was, I'd take HCl over phosgene any day.
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BromicAcid
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This thread is getting ridiculous with too much speculation and minimization of the hazards of this and other compounds. Certainly MSDS can over
exaggerate chemical hazards, but do not forget that this was and still can be used as a war gas. People working this this, experienced people, have
died. Diphosgene and triphosgene are phosgene equivalents, they handle better because they are liquids and solids respectively but when using them
one of the first steps is to either react them with a nucleophile or heat them to free up the phosgene. This can happen suddenly in some
circumstances, not that they are much healthier on their own, diphosgene itself can be used as a chemical weapon just like its parent compound.
Triphosgene, though a solid still generates enough phosgene just existing that it can trip local phosgene alarms when the container is opened.
Please give these compounds the respect they deserve.
@Agari - Why would you doubt that that individual worked at Aldrich? You think there aren't other people on this forum that work or have worked at
Aldrich or another large chemical company? I am not sure of the number of 'professionals' on this board but based on some of the polls it is
apparently more than you think.
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aga
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We're not all teenagers here either.
I was last a teenager 29 years ago.
Enough time to have worked for Sigma Aldrich, ICI, BASF, Dow and Dupont for about 6 years each (albeit as a cleaner, given my lack of chemistry
expertise !).
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Agari
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| Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid | This thread is getting ridiculous with too much speculation and minimization of the hazards of this and other compounds. Certainly MSDS can over
exaggerate chemical hazards, but do not forget that this was and still can be used as a war gas. People working this this, experienced people, have
died. Diphosgene and triphosgene are phosgene equivalents, they handle better because they are liquids and solids respectively but when using them
one of the first steps is to either react them with a nucleophile or heat them to free up the phosgene. This can happen suddenly in some
circumstances, not that they are much healthier on their own, diphosgene itself can be used as a chemical weapon just like its parent compound.
Triphosgene, though a solid still generates enough phosgene just existing that it can trip local phosgene alarms when the container is opened.
Please give these compounds the respect they deserve.
@Agari - Why would you doubt that that individual worked at Aldrich? You think there aren't other people on this forum that work or have worked at
Aldrich or another large chemical company? I am not sure of the number of 'professionals' on this board but based on some of the polls it is
apparently more than you think. |
They must be very good at hiding the fact that they work or have worked for a chemical company then.
Edit:Is mineral oil of the type used to store solid alkali metals such as sodium,potassium,and lithium suitable for storage of triphosgene crystals?
[Edited on 12-10-2015 by Agari]
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Agari
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| Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara | | Quote: | Hmm,that sounds rather interesting, any way to increase phosgene yield for something like that? While I am unlikely to actually be able to prepare
those compounds,my initial intended use for the gas was to pipe it over into a concentrated ammonia solution to obtain urea,but I later found out that
I would need anhydrous ammonia otherwise most of the gas will be hydrolyzed.
Edit:If I can't increase the yield in any way,I guess I will have to buy a generator from Sigma Aldrich's site.
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Orgsyn has a procedure:
http://www.orgsyn.org/demo.aspx?prep=cv5p0201
I suggest an excess of imidazole; better safe than acylated. I (and everyone else here) cannot stress enough the extreme danger you're putting
yourself into. |
I originally wanted to actually make urea,but now want to synthesize Carbonyldiimidazole.I understand that the other materials that the procedure
calls for will be hard to obtain,but if it is a long-term investment,then so be it.
[Edited on 12-10-2015 by Agari]
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clearly_not_atara
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| Quote: | | Thank you for your rather polite and well-structured comment,good sir.But such manners are too good to be appreciated by plebs such as myself,so I
will politely ask you to go fuck yourself. |
It's not considered wise to insult senior members of a forum as a n00b, you know.
Maybe try making carbonyl sulfide instead. It can at least be used as a precursor to chloroformates (via thiocarbonates), is generally less toxic, and
stinks, so you'll know if you've made a terrible mistake.
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/cr50016a002
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/240858232_Non-phosge...
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j_sum1
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By post 38 you should have figured out that what you propose is not a good idea.
I am going to reiterate that point. I respect the knowledge of those on this board and have a preference for people not dying needlessly.
If you need further explanation as to why it is a bad idea, or (perish the thought) what precautions you should take to make the procedure less
hazardous, then just ask. Someone will help.
If this thread degenerates to the level of throwing sand out of the sandbox then that's a problem which will most likely be resolved by sinking this
thread into the mire of lame threads on which the sun refuses to shine - aka detritus.
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Agari
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| Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1 | By post 38 you should have figured out that what you propose is not a good idea.
I am going to reiterate that point. I respect the knowledge of those on this board and have a preference for people not dying needlessly.
If you need further explanation as to why it is a bad idea, or (perish the thought) what precautions you should take to make the procedure less
hazardous, then just ask. Someone will help.
If this thread degenerates to the level of throwing sand out of the sandbox then that's a problem which will most likely be resolved by sinking this
thread into the mire of lame threads on which the sun refuses to shine - aka detritus. |
Alright,I got a few questions:
What is the best way to store triphosgene crystals,will the type of mineral oil used to store solid alkali metals do the job? How do I know if my gas
mask/respirator can block out phosgene?Can you please link a site to purchase one such mask? Finally, let's say I decide to introduce triphosgene
crystals to water in a closed system, what is the best way to seal connection points such as those where tubing meets a flask without permanently
damaging the glassware?
[Edited on 12-10-2015 by Agari]
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softbeard
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| Quote: Originally posted by Aga |
What is the best way to store triphosgene crystals,will the type of mineral oil used to store solid alkali metals do the job? How do I know if my gas
mask/respirator can block out phosgene?Can you please link a site to purchase one such mask? Finally, let's say I decide to introduce triphosgene
crystals to water in a closed system, what is the best way to seal connection points such as those where tubing meets a flask without permanently
damaging the glassware?
[Edited on 12-10-2015 by Agari] |
Seriously Agari? You 're planning on 'theoretically' producing, first phosgene, and then triphosgene, and yet you're asking these type of questions?
It's obvious you don't have a clue what you are doing!
Why would you want to store triphosgene under mineral oil? If anything, you need an inert atmosphere like nitrogen or argon.
Anyhow, there's no point in trying to warn you any further about how dangerously stupid your plans sound. Plenty of people on this board have already
attempted this.
My only hope is that the worst that will happen is you'll wind up generating some chlorine, while playing around with your TCCA and HCl, that will
cause you some mild Cl2 poisoning.
Maybe then you'll be smart enough to realize COCl2, unlike Cl2, won't be considerate enough to give you any clue you've
accumulated a lethal dose.
Maybe not; in which case, you'll become yet another posthumous recipient of the Darwin award.
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Agari
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| Quote: Originally posted by careysub | Check out my recent post on the hazard of phosgene, compared to hydrogen cyanide:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13590
Phosgene is much more dangerous than hydrogen cyanide due to the fact that phosgene is a cumulative poison, and cyanide isn't.
Phosgene is a very useful reagent, widely used in industry.
But it should only be produced and consumed in a carefully set-up closed system, with provision against any release (an alkali/water solution trap),
and with suitable respirator protection (separate air supply, an efficient fume hood, or a mask with a filter known to be effective against phosgene)
since accidents happen.
Phosgene has little odor, provides no warning signs, produces no symptoms for up to 48 hours, and once they appear you are already a dead man. There
is no treatment.
A phosgene detection badge would be nice also (commercially available).
You can prepare your own with accessible reagents (this is from Sartori's "The War Gases"):
"Method using Dimethyl Amino Benzaldehyde—Diphenylamine
Paper. Phosgene, even if present in traces in the air, can be
detected by means of papers prepared with dimethyl amino
benzaldehyde and diphenylamine.
These papers are prepared by immersing strips of filter paper
in a solution of 5 gm. />-dimethyl-amino-benzaldehyde and 5 gm.
diphenylamine in 100 ml. ethyl alcohol and allowing them to dry
in a dark place, or better still, according to Suchier, in an
atmosphere of carbon dioxide. By exposing these papers, which
are originally white or pale straw-yellow, to an atmosphere
containing phosgene, an orange-yellow colouration is produced in
a few seconds, the intensity of the colour varying with the
concentration of phosgene. This change of colour is also observed
in presence of chlorine or hydrochloric acid.
It is possible to detect phosgene at a concentration of 4 mgm.
per cu. m. of air" |
What actually happens that causes the paper to change color when phosgene is present?
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Praxichys
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| Quote: Originally posted by softbeard | | Quote: Originally posted by Aga |
What is the best way to store triphosgene crystals,will the type of mineral oil used to store solid alkali metals do the job? How do I know if my gas
mask/respirator can block out phosgene?Can you please link a site to purchase one such mask?
|
Why would you want to store triphosgene under mineral oil?
|
Especially because it's probably soluble.
@ Agari -
I have an idea. Make some chlorine first. If you can set up your proposed phosgene apparatus (with no reagents) and run a few moles of chlorine
through it without smelling any chlorine the whole time then you might be able to pull off diphosgene or triphosgene without killing yourself
by accident. While doing it, remember that every whiff of chlorine you smell means that if you were making phosgene, you just killed yourself. You are
not allowed to wear a mask, since you need to detect whether you are killing your neighbors by accident.
Remember that you'll need to disassemble and clean out the apparatus as well, using the same rules. While you're doing so, make sure you check for
smells in your fume hood exhaust. NDRC 1946 killed a monkey with phosgene with a 1 minute exposure of 145ppm. 10g of phosgene (7ml of liquid or 2.2L
of gas) is enough to bring 64000 cubic meters of air to that concentration. Releasing just 10g of phosgene would create a deadly cloud the size of of
26 olympic swimming pools, killing anyone inside within a minute. Diller 1978, studying accidents, determined that death occurs in humans at just
30ppm when exposed for 17 minutes. No bullshit: spilling those 10 grams, assuming the cloud stays <10m high, would kill anyone within 50 meters in
1 minute, and anyone within 100m in 17 minutes. NIOSH puts the "Immediately dangerous to life and health" concentration at 2ppm. This pushes this
radius to 360m, or nearly a quarter of a mile. How close do you live to other people?
Do not underestimate the seriousness of the extreme toxicity of phosgene. This is absolutely not suitable for a residential
environment.
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Agari
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | The NSA and/or CIA will be thinking of terms like 'Extreme Rendition' right now.
Any Threat, Foreign or Domestic, wanting to produce deadly gasses with zero idea about their Other uses would automatically be a Target, High
Priority, Lethal Force Authorised.
Not having a Target Compound for which you actually NEEDED phosgene will end up being why you're in jail, or inhumed.
Expect a knock at the door soon.
Answer that knock, and make sure you have nothing in either hand, and that both hands are in plain sight or they will kill you.
Is Phosgene sounding less Kewl now ? |
I am pretty sure you wrote that because you believe that I have no use for phosgene,yet one of my above posts states that I do indeed plan on using
the gas to make Carbonyldiimidazole. Lastly, if we follow your logic,then does that mean that anyone in possession of a level 4 health hazard(NFPA
704) should be getting arrested left,right,and center? Hell, why didn't I get arrested yet?
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Agari
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| Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys | | Quote: Originally posted by softbeard | | Quote: Originally posted by Aga |
What is the best way to store triphosgene crystals,will the type of mineral oil used to store solid alkali metals do the job? How do I know if my gas
mask/respirator can block out phosgene?Can you please link a site to purchase one such mask?
|
Why would you want to store triphosgene under mineral oil?
|
Especially because it's probably soluble.
@ Agari -
I have an idea. Make some chlorine first. If you can set up your proposed phosgene apparatus (with no reagents) and run a few moles of chlorine
through it without smelling any chlorine the whole time then you might be able to pull off diphosgene or triphosgene without killing yourself
by accident. While doing it, remember that every whiff of chlorine you smell means that if you were making phosgene, you just killed yourself. You are
not allowed to wear a mask, since you need to detect whether you are killing your neighbors by accident.
Remember that you'll need to disassemble and clean out the apparatus as well, using the same rules. While you're doing so, make sure you check for
smells in your fume hood exhaust. NDRC 1946 killed a monkey with phosgene with a 1 minute exposure of 145ppm. 10g of phosgene (7ml of liquid or 2.2L
of gas) is enough to bring 64000 cubic meters of air to that concentration. Releasing just 10g of phosgene would create a deadly cloud the size of of
26 olympic swimming pools, killing anyone inside within a minute. Diller 1978, studying accidents, determined that death occurs in humans at just
30ppm when exposed for 17 minutes. No bullshit: spilling those 10 grams, assuming the cloud stays <10m high, would kill anyone within 50 meters in
1 minute, and anyone within 100m in 17 minutes. NIOSH puts the "Immediately dangerous to life and health" concentration at 2ppm. This pushes this
radius to 360m, or nearly a quarter of a mile. How close do you live to other people?
Do not underestimate the seriousness of the extreme toxicity of phosgene. This is absolutely not suitable for a residential
environment. |
No filters?What about this:
| Quote: |
A two stage scrubbing system using NaOH/sodium thiosulfate and (separately) KOH/KMnO4 should scrub phosgene, chlorine and carbon monoxide.
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?
What about adding that to the apparatus,maybe even having ethanol or ammonia somewhere along the way(separate)?
On a more serious note,can you cite your references?
I live around the area of the Great Lakes(United States), more specifically,Lake Superior, so maybe I COULD in theory move there for the experiment?
It would at least remove me from the vicinity of residential areas.Sure,it might be going a bit extreme,but if phosgene is as bad as you say it is,I
think it will be worth going there,please see my post about me wanting to make carbonyldiimidazole. Yes,I will actually do it outside instead of under
a fume hood,maybe even seal my apparatus completely,even if it means rendering the glassware unusable,assuming COCl2 is as toxic as you
say.
[Edited on 14-10-2015 by Agari]
[Edited on 14-10-2015 by Agari]
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Agari
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| Quote: Originally posted by careysub | Check out my recent post on the hazard of phosgene, compared to hydrogen cyanide:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13590
Phosgene is much more dangerous than hydrogen cyanide due to the fact that phosgene is a cumulative poison, and cyanide isn't.
Phosgene is a very useful reagent, widely used in industry.
But it should only be produced and consumed in a carefully set-up closed system, with provision against any release (an alkali/water solution trap),
and with suitable respirator protection (separate air supply, an efficient fume hood, or a mask with a filter known to be effective against phosgene)
since accidents happen.
Phosgene has little odor, provides no warning signs, produces no symptoms for up to 48 hours, and once they appear you are already a dead man. There
is no treatment.
A phosgene detection badge would be nice also (commercially available).
You can prepare your own with accessible reagents (this is from Sartori's "The War Gases"):
"Method using Dimethyl Amino Benzaldehyde—Diphenylamine
Paper. Phosgene, even if present in traces in the air, can be
detected by means of papers prepared with dimethyl amino
benzaldehyde and diphenylamine.
These papers are prepared by immersing strips of filter paper
in a solution of 5 gm. />-dimethyl-amino-benzaldehyde and 5 gm.
diphenylamine in 100 ml. ethyl alcohol and allowing them to dry
in a dark place, or better still, according to Suchier, in an
atmosphere of carbon dioxide. By exposing these papers, which
are originally white or pale straw-yellow, to an atmosphere
containing phosgene, an orange-yellow colouration is produced in
a few seconds, the intensity of the colour varying with the
concentration of phosgene. This change of colour is also observed
in presence of chlorine or hydrochloric acid.
It is possible to detect phosgene at a concentration of 4 mgm.
per cu. m. of air" |
What actually happens that causes the paper to change color?What reaction occurs?
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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Thread Split
14-10-2015 at 15:45 |
Praxichys
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If the lethal limit in one minute is 145ppm, and your gas mask filters 99.9% of phosgene, breathing 145000ppm (14.5%) phosgene in air will cause
enough to pass the mask filter and kill you in one minute (assuming mask is well-sealed - i.e. you have no facial hair - and ignoring skin and eye
exposure). Just 3% outside the mask would kill you in 17 minutes, according to the studies previously cited. Also, the mask filter becomes less
effective over time. That time is dependent on how much phosgene it has been exposed to, something unknowable in an outdoor situation.
http://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/phosgene/basics/facts.asp
Can't you buy the carbonyldiimidazole? What do you need it for?
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careysub
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| Quote: Originally posted by Agari | | Quote: Originally posted by careysub | Check out my recent post on the hazard of phosgene, compared to hydrogen cyanide:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13590
Phosgene is much more dangerous than hydrogen cyanide due to the fact that phosgene is a cumulative poison, and cyanide isn't.
Phosgene is a very useful reagent, widely used in industry.
But it should only be produced and consumed in a carefully set-up closed system, with provision against any release (an alkali/water solution trap),
and with suitable respirator protection (separate air supply, an efficient fume hood, or a mask with a filter known to be effective against phosgene)
since accidents happen.
Phosgene has little odor, provides no warning signs, produces no symptoms for up to 48 hours, and once they appear you are already a dead man. There
is no treatment.
A phosgene detection badge would be nice also (commercially available).
You can prepare your own with accessible reagents (this is from Sartori's "The War Gases"):
"Method using Dimethyl Amino Benzaldehyde—Diphenylamine
Paper. Phosgene, even if present in traces in the air, can be
detected by means of papers prepared with dimethyl amino
benzaldehyde and diphenylamine.
These papers are prepared by immersing strips of filter paper
in a solution of 5 gm. />-dimethyl-amino-benzaldehyde and 5 gm.
diphenylamine in 100 ml. ethyl alcohol and allowing them to dry
in a dark place, or better still, according to Suchier, in an
atmosphere of carbon dioxide. By exposing these papers, which
are originally white or pale straw-yellow, to an atmosphere
containing phosgene, an orange-yellow colouration is produced in
a few seconds, the intensity of the colour varying with the
concentration of phosgene. This change of colour is also observed
in presence of chlorine or hydrochloric acid.
It is possible to detect phosgene at a concentration of 4 mgm.
per cu. m. of air" |
What actually happens that causes the paper to change color?What reaction occurs? |
p-DMAB reacts with other reagents form colored dyes. It is used in Ehrlich's reagent for example. It reacts with with amines, pyrroles and indoles
forms colorful Schiff base adducts; it reacts with hydrazine to form azo dyes (not an exhaustive list of known color-forming reactions).
I would guess the phosgene reacts to link the p-DMAB with diphenylamine to form a dye molecule, the exact nature of the linkage I do not know (others
here can make better guesses about the proper reaction mechanism than me).
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Agari
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Well,following the same logic,phosgene can also be bought from Sigma Aldrich in solution instead of synthesizing it from triphosgene. As for my
possible uses for the (C3H3N2)2CO, I have not gotten any ideas of what I could use it for,but I do know some of the compounds it can be used to
synthesize,but I will probably just store the (C3H3N2)2CO until I find use for it.In the meantime,I will hopefully be able to understand the chemistry
involved behind the synthesis.
On a sidenote, what contamination could I possibly expect if I run the chlorine generated from the 3 HCl + C3Cl3N3O3 -->3 CNOH + 6 Cl reaction
through a test tube filled with sulfuric acid to dry the chlorine during the synthesis of triphosgene?
Edit: How much triphosgene(by mass) would be needed to bring the phosgene concentration to the lethal dose that you described? I want to make sure I
don't add too much, assuming that there is a possible leakage even with the NaOH and KOH scrubber in place where possible?
[Edited on 17-10-2015 by Agari]
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MeshPL
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Originally, by mistake, I posted this in a spin-off thread, but anyway...
I have a MAD, but probably bad idea how to make phosgene. Since chlorine condenses at -35C and calcium chloride/ice cooling bath may get you down to
-40C you may attempt to liquify chlorine in some way. Dry ice could also be used. Than you could bubble CO through liquid chlorine to make phosgene.
Would that react and have at least 1% of not killing anybody?
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Agari
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| Quote: Originally posted by MeshPL | Originally, by mistake, I posted this in a spin-off thread, but anyway...
I have a MAD, but probably bad idea how to make phosgene. Since chlorine condenses at -35C and calcium chloride/ice cooling bath may get you down to
-40C you may attempt to liquify chlorine in some way. Dry ice could also be used. Than you could bubble CO through liquid chlorine to make phosgene.
Would that react and have at least 1% of not killing anybody? |
Could you please link us to the spin-off thread? Industrially,phosgene is produced by running purified carbon monoxide and chlorine gas through a bed
of activated carbon.The reaction is typically conducted between 100 and 150 degrees Celsius. If I were to bubble CO through liquid Cl, only trace
amounts of phosgene will be produced and would likely result in the yield being insufficient for producing adequate amounts of carbonyldiimidazole,but
I could be wrong here.
[Edited on 17-10-2015 by Agari]
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Little_Ghost_again
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no dont link the thread! in one part of this you say you have a need/reason for doing this then later on you say you dont and will store it.
So we dont help druggies but we are allowed to help terrorists?
Dont ask me, I only know enough to be dangerous
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aga
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Detritus.
Definitely Detritus.
Increasingly, Dangerous Detritus.
[Edited on 17-10-2015 by aga]
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Agari
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| Quote: Originally posted by Little_Ghost_again | no dont link the thread! in one part of this you say you have a need/reason for doing this then later on you say you dont and will store it.
So we dont help druggies but we are allowed to help terrorists?
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You are quite paranoid. How many threads with hazardous/energetic materials actually ended up resulting in intentional deaths? I am pretty sure that
the number is 0. I won't try to reply to you again since it will cause the thread to be sent to Detritus.
[Edited on 17-10-2015 by Agari]
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