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softbeard
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"Acetylen and cyanhydric acid both are endothermic compounds; as such they can detonate back to their elements generating heat..."
Just what is 'cyanhydric acid' supposed to be? HCN? Cyanogen? Stop making up chemical names and expect other people to know what you're talking about.
Gaseous acetylene cannot "detonate back to their elements...". No. Only acetylene as a compressed liquified gas can be detonated. That's why nobody
stores pure liquid acetylene in tanks. Then same goes for HCN; it will only polymerize explosively as a liquid.
"NaCN is detonable with NaNO2 or NaNO3 for example": reference please.
Tell me PHILOU Zrealone, how do you get a 20 ton TNT explosive equivalent out an of acetylene/air mixture? The acetylene/air scenario is ludicrous. If
acetylene/air were such an effective explosive why would you ever need TNT or ammonal in bombs. The US Air Force should instead be dropping
proximity-fused acetylene tanks from its planes.
Maybe you should check the density of your acetylene/air mixture compared to solid state (or liquid) explosives. Check how much volume only 10 tons of
acetylene gas takes up at ambient conditions. I'll accept an ideal gas law approximation.
"NH4NO3 would detonate much colourless/ with white fumes" Huh? You've never seen NH4NO3 detonate, have you? I'll give you a
hint, the products are N2, O2, H2O, along with traces of NO & NO2. See anything that gives white
fumes?
Really, you're giving every indication that you're making this shit up as you go along.
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Bert
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Quote: Originally posted by softbeard  | "NH4NO3 would detonate much colourless/ with white fumes" Huh? You've never seen NH4NO3 detonate, have you? I'll give you a
hint, the products are N2, O2, H2O, along with traces of NO & NO2. See anything that gives white
fumes?
Really, you're giving every indication that you're making this shit up as you go along.
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I have seen a fair number of sensitized ammonium nitrate explosives shot. Water vapor condenses and leaves a white cloud. Aluminum as a sensitizer
increases the appearance of a white cloud.
Tell me abou your experience to the contrary?
If I must make an SFX HE shot for movie or video work purporting to be a TNT or similar low OB explosive and am limited to such AN based explosives,
I wrap the charges in a bag of charcoal briquettes, the added carbon/powdered charcoal colors the vapor an acceptable dark grey/black color good
enough for visual special effects work-
Please do not attempt to teach what you have not yet learned.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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softbeard
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| Quote: Originally posted by Bert | | Quote: Originally posted by softbeard | "NH4NO3 would detonate much colourless/ with white fumes" Huh? You've never seen NH4NO3 detonate, have you? I'll give you a
hint, the products are N2, O2, H2O, along with traces of NO & NO2. See anything that gives white
fumes?
Really, you're giving every indication that you're making this shit up as you go along.
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Uh, Bert, are you entering the twilight zone too?
We're not talking about some idealized pyrotechnic mixture here. We're talking about a 20 ton TNT equivalent detonation. There is not enough time for
making your TNT-simulation-pyrotechnic in this scenario.
Anyhow, Bert, this is night-time. You're not going to to see white clouds at night, even if they did exist.
What is the point of your argument? That exploding ammonium nitrate leaves white clouds behind? Really Bert? I'm sure if you add enough Al powder, Mg
powder, C, and whatnot it will. But we're not doing a movie shoot here. And, no, an NH4NO3 detonation does not produce white
clouds. Perhaps, Bert, you could point me to an example photo of this effect.
The point of this thread was what was the primary cause of the detonation witnessed at Tainjin. The primary cause is presumed to be a pure chemical,
stored by itself. It may have been set off or sensitized by impurities but you assume the chemicals were stored in their pure form and that the bulk
of the detonation was caused by that pure form.
"Water vapor condenses and leaves a white cloud": This is pyrotechnics talk and is a joke compared to the events in this case.
"Please do not attempt to teach what you have not yet learned.": Bert please understand what you are trying to argue before you attempt to argue it.
The argument is not about white clouds being present or not.
"I have seen a fair number of sensitized ammonium nitrate explosives shot. Water vapor condenses and leaves a white cloud. Aluminum as a sensitizer
increases the appearance of a white cloud."
Tell me abou your experience to the contrary?
Again Bert, you're talking about hypothetical Al sensitizers. This event was not a photo shoot with carefully-controlled pyrotechnic mixtures.
"If I must make an SFX HE shot for movie or video work purporting to be a TNT or similar low OB explosive and am limited to such AN based explosives,
I wrap the charges in a bag of charcoal briquettes, the added carbon/powdered charcoal colors the vapor an acceptable dark grey/black color good
enough for visual special effects work-"
Please do not attempt to teach what you have not yet learned. |
"
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Bert
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So, essentially, you have never used ammonium nitrate explosives and have a theory that they produce no visible vapors?
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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j_sum1
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FWIW, although I appreciate your input softbeard, I have to acknowledge Bert's considerable experience in the field as a full time pyrotechnician.
(Is that what you call yourself Bert?)
Bert, I would love your speculation as to what actually happened. I am reasonably satisfied that the second bigger blast (21 Tonne TNT equivalent)
was caused by ammonium nitrate. Not being an EM expert I would love some more details. Under what conditions does pure AN detonate?
I am not at all sure about the smaller 3 tonne blast. What role if any do you think acetylene may have had to play? Opinion (both here and on other
discussion boards) seems to be a bit divided on that one. What about the MEK stored? could that have gone bang? What else in the known chemical
soup is a contender?
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kecskesajt
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Small amounts of ammonium nitrate is harmless.I use it to start campfires.But a huge amount is danerous becuase of the local overheating.
There could be a role in this reaction by the CaC2 because when it is mixed with oxidising agent,and lighed,it burns quite fast,
Maybe the AN/KNO3/NaNO3 melted and flown into the CaC2 and the CaC2 powder mixed with the oxidiser to form an intermolecular mixture.
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Jimbo Jones
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| Quote: Originally posted by softbeard | "Acetylen and cyanhydric acid both are endothermic compounds; as such they can detonate back to their elements generating heat..."
Just what is 'cyanhydric acid' supposed to be? HCN? Cyanogen? Stop making up chemical names and expect other people to know what you're talking about.
Gaseous acetylene cannot "detonate back to their elements...". No. Only acetylene as a compressed liquified gas can be detonated. That's why nobody
stores pure liquid acetylene in tanks. Then same goes for HCN; it will only polymerize explosively as a liquid.
"NaCN is detonable with NaNO2 or NaNO3 for example": reference please.
Tell me PHILOU Zrealone, how do you get a 20 ton TNT explosive equivalent out an of acetylene/air mixture? The acetylene/air scenario is ludicrous. If
acetylene/air were such an effective explosive why would you ever need TNT or ammonal in bombs. The US Air Force should instead be dropping
proximity-fused acetylene tanks from its planes.
Maybe you should check the density of your acetylene/air mixture compared to solid state (or liquid) explosives. Check how much volume only 10 tons of
acetylene gas takes up at ambient conditions. I'll accept an ideal gas law approximation.
"NH4NO3 would detonate much colourless/ with white fumes" Huh? You've never seen NH4NO3 detonate, have you? I'll give you a
hint, the products are N2, O2, H2O, along with traces of NO & NO2. See anything that gives white
fumes?
Really, you're giving every indication that you're making this shit up as you go along.
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Absolute nonsense. In every aspect. But considering the fact that it comes from the same genius who made this statement --- "The steel has melted from
the intense heat of the fire." --- I will not even bother to point the obvious.
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Bert
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I am primarily a fireworks man. It is an honest name for someone engaged in that craft...
My master said that the historically correct English term for someone who makes and uses pyrotechnics was "PyrotechNIST", and "pyroTECHNICIAN" is a
modern bastardization foisted on the world by ignorant, know nothing Americans-
It doesn't much matter to the general public, they will continue to call us all pyrotechnicians or just "pyros"! I don't call myself a pyrotechnician
except when working as a TECHNICIAN- Typically, when I'm a hand on the set of a production where my activities are essentially limited to "plugging
in" and using pre packaged, mass produced devices.
-------
My opinion on what blew up? That there are so many possibilities, a records search of the area's cargo container contents and locations combined with
an engineering assessment of the physical locations of the dammage versus locations of various products and a forensic examination of residue and
nature of blast effects on the surroundings would be required to say what caused the major blasts with any authority.
Hot ammonium nitrate in contact with a fuel certainly would be a suspect, given past accidents of this type.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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PHILOU Zrealone
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| Quote: Originally posted by softbeard | "Acetylen and cyanhydric acid both are endothermic compounds; as such they can detonate back to their elements generating heat..."
Just what is 'cyanhydric acid' supposed to be? HCN? Cyanogen? Stop making up chemical names and expect other people to know what you're talking about.
Gaseous acetylene cannot "detonate back to their elements...". No. Only acetylene as a compressed liquified gas can be detonated. That's why nobody
stores pure liquid acetylene in tanks. Then same goes for HCN; it will only polymerize explosively as a liquid.
"NaCN is detonable with NaNO2 or NaNO3 for example": reference please.
Tell me PHILOU Zrealone, how do you get a 20 ton TNT explosive equivalent out an of acetylene/air mixture? The acetylene/air scenario is ludicrous. If
acetylene/air were such an effective explosive why would you ever need TNT or ammonal in bombs. The US Air Force should instead be dropping
proximity-fused acetylene tanks from its planes.
Maybe you should check the density of your acetylene/air mixture compared to solid state (or liquid) explosives. Check how much volume only 10 tons of
acetylene gas takes up at ambient conditions. I'll accept an ideal gas law approximation.
"NH4NO3 would detonate much colourless/ with white fumes" Huh? You've never seen NH4NO3 detonate, have you? I'll give you a
hint, the products are N2, O2, H2O, along with traces of NO & NO2. See anything that gives white
fumes?
Really, you're giving every indication that you're making this shit up as you go along.
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@Softbeard, alias Tom Liberman, BTW your family name from German/Dutch origin means "Gentleman",... don't forget it!
Sorry but I'm a chemical and biochemical engineer specialized in organic chemistry. I learn chemistry as autodidact since my 14 years old...at 15, I
was already buying chembooks at university.
I read chemistry on a daily basis...so I know a lot. I also did experiments on my own the last 27 years.
So I may not know everything, but I think I know sufficiently to give several 50 cents comments of value. If I made a mistake, I'm the first one to
admit it!
I think that you have first to read carefully what people wrote before flaming them.
1°)Cyanhydric acid, is just a very common name for cyanide of hydrogen, HCN ...just like chlorhydric acid is a common name for chloride of hydrogen
or muriatic acid. A simple Google search on cyanhydric acid would have teached you that!
2°)At the end of my first sentence: "this can happen when shocked (pressurized)"...this means when pressurized or liquefied...so why pretending I'm
wrong?
3°)References of detonation of eutectic mixes of NaNO2/NaCN or NaNO3/NaCN (or crossover with K salts) exists in many good extensive books about the
chemical elements (some may be found in the Library of the forum).
Maybe you should read "Nouveau traité de chimie Minérale", by Manson & Cie Editor-1963-Tome II (fasicule 1 (Lithium (Li), Sodium (Na)); fasicule
2 (Potassium (K)). Each fasicule is about 800 pages, a kind of monography on the element and derivatives with physico-chemical properties...go and
read NaCN,NaNO2, NaNO3, KCN, KNO2, KNO3 sections...
4°)Where did I state that acetylen-air was the only responsible?
Acetylen weights 26g/mole, one mole of gas at STP is arround 22.41 L
C2H2(g) + 5/2 O2(g) --> 2 CO2(g) + H2O(g)
So perfect OB mix is 22.41L acetylen and 22.41L*2.5=+/- 56 L oxygen (or 280 L air)
I just stated that acetylen/oxydiser is very potent explosive ... even if not compressed/condensed.
In the mix of gases formed by the heat and chemical mixes you may also have N2O, NO, NO2...all those form detonating mixes with acetylen and HCN all
detonating above 3-3.5km/s in the gas state...pretty good for uncondensed explosives...TNT only reaches 6.5km as condensed.
This may have overheated other chemicals and lead them to explode/detonate.
To be so affirmative, do you have comparison datas of Lead Block Test for 10g acetylen/oxygen vs 10g TNT?
You might be surprised.
5°) Live with that NH4NO3 doesn't burn or detonate yellow-orange on its own. None of the explosion/burning products H2O, NO, N2, O2, N2O, NO2 produce
a yellow-orange-gold color at the detonation-explosion temperature and yes some do condense in the fumes as white fog or with air moisture...
NO + O2 --> NO2
NO2 + H2O --> HNO2 + HNO3
H2O(g) --> H2O(l)
So NH4NO3 is not the only responsible chemical.
Beware that NH4NO3 is rarely used alone in blast and the extra-ingredient may cause yellow color (sodium (in emulsion slurries), cardboard, plastic
container, ...)
[Edited on 19-8-2015 by PHILOU Zrealone]
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: |
Sorry but I'm a chemical and biochemical engineer specialized in organic chemistry. I learn chemistry as autodidact since my 14 years old...at 15, I
was already buying chembooks at university.
I read chemistry on a daily basis...so I know a lot. I also did experiments on my own the last 27 years.
So I may not know everything, but I think I know sufficiently to give several 50 cents comments of value. If I made a mistake, I'm the first one to
admit it! |
Jeeez PHILOU, I don't think you should feel a need to in-any-way justify yourself to a hubristic knownothing like this guy?
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Varmint
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Hundreds, perhaps thousands of "Tannerite" shots on youtube, anyone can verify the color of the clouds in just a few seconds. There are even
multi-ton NH4NO3 detonations done by the "ignorant, know nothing American" military disposing of fertilizer suspected of being useful in IEDs in Iraq
and Afghanistan.
The interesting part is all the pontificating on the color of the clouds, what makes them get that way, how the chemistry of the detonation cannot
provide either cloud nor color, in each one's mind doing this pontificating, "the science is settled".
The trouble is, the initial cloud dissipates rapidly so somebody is liable to come back in fighting about how "truly colored clouds wouldn't dissipate
like that" or any number of other platitudes to attempt to prop up their previously stated position.
Here's my idea on what blew up in China: I have no fucking idea. It would be foolish and arrogant for me to even guess at it, because I have
absolutely no way of knowing which reports to believe about what was or was not being stored. It might be fun to speculate, but look at the turn it
took here.
Normally respected contributors beat down in grand fashion as if everyone has studied Blogfast's guidebook on how to be an internet prick,
(co-authored by that jackass Bfesser), knowledgeable chemists providing absolutely impossible starting conditions that justify their statement on what
blew up, and on and on.
Maybe someday cell phones and camcorders will come equipped with diffraction gratings and sensors that provide a spectral footprint. Then most
anybody could tell the Chinese what blew up, or more likely, there could be arguments about the interpretations of said spectrographs as each jockeys
for position as the master of supreme intelligence.
[Edited on 19-8-2015 by Varmint]
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softbeard
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Wow; it was not my intention to start a flame war here. If I've offended people, I apologize. I'm not looking for people's credentials here, and I
think some of you (ie. PHILOU Zrealone , Bert) are being a little thin-skinned about this. Why is this degenerating into a discussion about whether
white clouds formed or not?
PHILOU Zrealone, understand my point; even if C2H2 and HCN did form on-site from the chemicals present, they'd be in a gaseous
form and non-detonatable. This is why I criticized your talking about them as endothermic and being a cause of the disaster.
Anyhow, I agree talking about what happened in Tainjin is all complete guesswork, but I thought that was the point of this thread. Instead, the thread
is degenerating into posturing and insults.
BTW: When I Google 'Cyanhydric acid' the first thing that comes up is Cyanuric acid.
[Edited on 19-8-2015 by softbeard]
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | | . . . multi-ton NH4NO3 detonations done by the "ignorant, know nothing American" military |
Why do you hate the the federal armed forces so much, Varmint?
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | | Instead, the thread is degenerating into posturing and insults. |
Do you, perhaps, think your posting like an Über K3wl barely past the SWIM phase could have anything to do with it?
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Varmint
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Hissing:
If you read Bert's post, he was the one that felt obligated to take a swipe at America, so I was taking a veiled swipe at him with my comment.
Actually, my son is a SSgt. in the USMC, and I'm a diehard conservative, so I'm actually quite fond of the US military.
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | [quote=416487&tid=63322&author=Varmint]
Hissing: |
Don't mind me, Varmint ─ I'm just taking the hiss . . . ?
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Bert
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| Quote: |
MEA CULPA! MEA MAXIMA CULPA!!!!!
"Foisted on the world by ignorant, know nothing Americans"
Please PM all related abuse to me PERSONALLY, leave the thread out of it!
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Hi everyone!
This thread goes into lockdown and detritus after ONE MORE UNCIVIL POST.
I appologize for my own posting a reply to an off topic question that apparently ignited this flame war-
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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hissingnoise
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It's gone baby!
Bert, how could you . . . ?
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softbeard
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I'll make one last note in this thread, then I'll keep my mouth shut. It's clear re-reading my original posts to PHILOU Zrealone & Bert that I've
violated my own rules about ad-hominem attacks, and for that I've apologized...mea culpa.
I'll also admit I dismissed PHILOU Zrealone statement "NaCN is detonable with NaNO2 or NaNO3" without checking. It does make sense this could have
happened.
From now on, when I see PHILOU Zrealone & 'Cyanhydric acid' I'll know he means HCN.
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hissingnoise
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(sigh!)'Tis in times such as these that I really miss Sauron and his inventive ASSTs . . .
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Varmint
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I too will apologize, I shouldn't have taken a shot at Bert for repeating what some jackass told him.
I just I was a bit sensitized by Ave's retort about "arrogant American" to another poster the other day, when she decided to pass off her comment as
"a bad joke in answer to a bad joke". BS, she got caught, found a way out without actually having to apologize.
Frankly, I'm pretty well sick of America bashing. For decades it was understood by all (especially those doing the bashing) as nothing more than
abject jealousy.
The Brits, who would normally be kindered spirits love to bash on "gun toting Americans", but the whole world knows they surrendered their freedom a
century ago, and for them the only retort is to bash us, which is nothing more than trying to convince themselves that not being trusted by their own
government is "advancement", and America is just simply behind the times.
Bloggie and others love to spout off about American homophobia and "invading brown people", well, this is more trying to convince themselves more than
actually ranking on me and my nation. You see, once you've rolled over and submitted, the only option "to be a good subject" is to berate those who
haven't been forced into accepting a formerly listed mental illness as "mainstream", and to rejoice that the name Mohammed and it's derivatives is
close to the cusp of being in the top ten names in their formerly great nation.
Yep, slap America for being "behind the times, homophobic, and anti-immigrant" while you can, because once we succumb to the same BS we'll all be in
the same boat, it won't make sense anymore. Then we can all reflect on what life was like before there were gays in every TV program or movie, and
before Sharia was imposed by those "harmless immigrants just looking for a better life".
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PHILOU Zrealone
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OK 
Opposites attracts! 
Like likes like! 
So everybody loves each other...let us make a big forgiveness hugh. 
And back to chinese explosion debate. 
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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hissingnoise
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I think I'm going to be sick . . .
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aga
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It is obvious what happened.
It was a Food storage warehouse, mostly peanut oil.
This got too hot and boiled out all over 20 tonnes of dry prawn crackers.
I've seen those things go crazy in the frying pan before : almost as vigorous as poppadoms.
Edit:
America is a mess, just a Powerful mess is all.
UK, Europe, Asia, Africa, well, Everywhere is a mess.
I think the 'arrogant' bit comes from Americans believing it's not when it plainly is.
[Edited on 19-8-2015 by aga]
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Loptr
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | It is obvious what happened.
It was a Food storage warehouse, mostly peanut oil.
This got too hot and boiled out all over 20 tonnes of dry prawn crackers.
I've seen those things go crazy in the frying pan before : almost as vigorous as poppadoms.
Edit:
America is a mess, just a Powerful mess is all.
UK, Europe, Asia, Africa, well, Everywhere is a mess.
I think the 'arrogant' bit comes from Americans believing it's not when it plainly is.
[Edited on 19-8-2015 by aga] |
It must be the tall white aliens that run America...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpeck/2014/01/13/iran-says...
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