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Volanschemia
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Latest version of rules is now available through the same link on the first post. It now includes the rules regarding hydration and intermetallics.
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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Texium
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Just checking because I didn't see this in the rules or the thread anywhere...
Are we allowed to start with any copper compound? And does our starting material count as one of the compounds, or will we have to make it again
somewhere in the chain for it to count?
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Volanschemia
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Quote: Originally posted by zts16  | Just checking because I didn't see this in the rules or the thread anywhere...
Are we allowed to start with any copper compound? And does our starting material count as one of the compounds, or will we have to make it again
somewhere in the chain for it to count? |
Yes, you can start with a copper compound (or copper metal) and yes, the starting compound counts in the final tally.
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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j_sum1
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I think it is funny that when a competition comes up there is a frantic search for loopholes or ambiguity in the rules. It says something about the
pedantic nature that we have acquired.
Thanks for organising this one TAS. I will watch closely.
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starman
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Mmm ligands ? EDTA, NTA, EDDA etc
Chemistry- The journey from the end of physics to the beginning of life.(starman)
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Volanschemia
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As in a Cu-EDTA coordination complex? Yes, as it says in the rules:
| Quote: | Complexes are permitted if they have a name and are verified. If a complex that cannot be verified is created as an intermediate to a verified
compound; that is acceptable as long as the unverified complex is not counted.
(ie. When making Chevreul's salt from CuSO4 and Na2S2O5, an unknown green complex is created preceding the formation of Chevreul's salt, this
complex cannot be counted, but is permitted as an intermediate). |
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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Volanschemia
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| Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1 | I think it is funny that when a competition comes up there is a frantic search for loopholes or ambiguity in the rules. It says something about the
pedantic nature that we have acquired.
Thanks for organising this one TAS. I will watch closely. |
Yes, it is amusing. You're welcome j_sum, and thankyou to you for your feedback and suggestions.
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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mayko
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As it's written, a submission is judged on and only on the number of distinct copper compounds in the chain, is that correct? (ie, subjective novelty
of compounds/techniques might get cool points but won't be scored )
al-khemie is not a terrorist organization
"Chemicals, chemicals... I need chemicals!" - George Hayduke
"Wubbalubba dub-dub!" - Rick Sanchez
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szuko03
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I love this idea of contest this will make our hobby that much more valid! Especially since you guys in Australia have issues getting glassware at
least this kind of gives you a reason should someone ask. "Oh I am entering an amateur chemistry contest about synthesizing copper compounds here take
a look!" is better then "I just like turning one white crystalline solid into a blue crystalline solid, no they are not active in any right nor are
they worth anything in fact doing said experiment just takes money and time and the final product I just put in a container and store for no apparent
reason"
Chemistry is a natural drive, not an interest.
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Volanschemia
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| Quote: Originally posted by mayko | | As it's written, a submission is judged on and only on the number of distinct copper compounds in the chain, is that correct? (ie, subjective novelty
of compounds/techniques might get cool points but won't be scored ) |
Yes, the main prize will be awarded to the person with the most distinct copper compounds. However, I will throw in a small secondary prize for the
person with the most obscure copper compound and/or technique.
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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Volanschemia
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OK, competition opens in about 1.5h.
The rules are now set, no further changes will be made unless a problem is bought to my attention that needs to be rectified.
Good luck!
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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DraconicAcid
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| Quote: Originally posted by TheAustralianScientist | OK, competition opens in about 1.5h.
The rules are now set, no further changes will be made unless a problem is bought to my attention that needs to be rectified.
Good luck! |
Does that mean we're not supposed to have started any of our reactions yet?
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
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Texium
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Hehe... oops
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Zephyr
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I guess that means I'm also guilty...
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Amos
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Since we're taking hydrates, are double salts an option as well?
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DraconicAcid
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They should be, unless that's what is meant by "intermetallics".
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
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Zephyr
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If they are allowed, wouldn't this make the competition very easy?
I was under the impression that it was fairly easy to create hydroxide and carbonate double salts with many other transition metals, thereby making
the competition basically just a race for who could collect the most transition metal compounds...
Furthermore, it seems that these compounds would be difficult to name or identify, as it appears there is little information available on them.
IMO it would be simpler if these compounds where not allowed.
**amos has informed me that they aren't as easy to synthesize as I thought. Maybe they should be allowed? Maybe I should go do some more research...
[Edited on 6-3-2015 by Pinkhippo11]
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DraconicAcid
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I don't know of any hydroxide or carbonate double salts with copper. And the ones that I do know of aren't that easy to synthesize.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
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Volanschemia
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No, it means you can now submit entries!
| Quote: Originally posted by Pinkhippo11 |
If they are allowed, wouldn't this make the competition very easy?
I was under the impression that it was fairly easy to create hydroxide and carbonate double salts with many other transition metals, thereby making
the competition basically just a race for who could collect the most transition metal compounds...
Furthermore, it seems that these compounds would be difficult to name or identify, as it appears there is little information available on them.
IMO it would be simpler if these compounds where not allowed.
**amos has informed me that they aren't as easy to synthesize as I thought. Maybe they should be allowed? Maybe I should go do some more research...
[Edited on 6-3-2015 by Pinkhippo11] |
Hmm, not sure about the double salts. I'm kinda leaning towards no, but if you want to persuade me, I'll listen.
[Edited on 3-6-2015 by TheAustralianScientist]
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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Volanschemia
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OK, I've been persuaded on the double salts matter. They are permitted. I have also added a clause to the hydration rule that states:
| Quote: | If a hydrate is created that is not documented, evidence of the hydration must be provided in the form a photo of a weighing scale readout of the
compound.
Hydration can then be calculated based on the stoichiometry used in synthesizing the compound. |
Also a couple of changes to the submissions section that allow for the permission to not dry compounds. The changes are:
| Quote: | | ...theoretical maximum yield and the actual yield (only if dried) of the compound accompanying each. |
| Quote: | | A photo of each compound (ideally dried, but not mandatory)... |
The new rules can be found in the same link in the opening post of the thread (thanks Woelen for editing).
Hopefully we have ironed out all the flaws in the rules now and they won't have to be changed again. 
[Edited on 3-6-2015 by TheAustralianScientist]
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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Volanschemia
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Just a reminder that there is a secondary prize for the most interesting compound synthesized/technique used.
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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Praxichys
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I have two questions:
(Question 1) Can we supplement yields with reagents we already have, or do we need to do the first reactions on a massive scale so we
have some material to work with at the end?
Example:
1. I make tetraamine copper II nitrate
2. I convert it to basic copper II carbonate
3. I convert the carbonate to the chloride with HCl.
As long as I demonstrate that basic carbonate can be made from TACN, can I add basic carbonate I already have to boost the starting quantity
in reaction 3? Is the spirit of the chain to use the SAME copper ions for the whole chain, or to show a chain of reactions?
(Question 2) The rules clearly state that the same compound cannot be used twice. To clarify, the following is illegal,
correct?
1. Cu + HCl + H2O2 -> CuCl2
2. CuCl2 + H3PO4 -> Cu3(PO4)2
3. Cu3(PO4)2 + (HCl + NaF) -> CuF2
Because step 3 can be broken into:
Cu3(PO4)2 + HCl <-> H3PO4 + CuCl2 (illegal)
CuCl2 + NaF -> CuF2 + NaCl
Because even if this was done first:
HCl + NaF <->> HF + NaCl
Cu3(PO4)2 + HF <->> CuF2 + H3PO4
This would still exist in equilibrium:
NaCl + Cu3(PO4)2 <-> CuCl2 + Na(n)PO4(x)
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DraconicAcid
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Just to be clear, what do you mean by intermetallics?
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
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DraconicAcid
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| Quote: | I have two questions:
(Question 1) Can we supplement yields with reagents we already have, or do we need to do the first reactions on a massive scale so we
have some material to work with at the end? |
This was addressed. Intermediate compounds can be supplemented.
| Quote: | (Question 2) The rules clearly state that the same compound cannot be used twice. To clarify, the following is illegal,
correct?
1. Cu + HCl + H2O2 -> CuCl2
2. CuCl2 + H3PO4 -> Cu3(PO4)2
3. Cu3(PO4)2 + (HCl + NaF) -> CuF2
Because step 3 can be broken into:
Cu3(PO4)2 + HCl <-> H3PO4 + CuCl2 (illegal)
CuCl2 + NaF -> CuF2 + NaCl |
I think that because you're not isolating or claiming CuCl2 as a product twice, this is allowed.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
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Amos
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Compounds of copper and another metal in the 0 oxidation state, such as CuZn or Cu6Sn5.
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