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blogfast25
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Quote: Originally posted by polypyrrole  |
Total synthesis of insulin is beyond even the most well equipped high level research labs, as an enthusiast, you might as well be trying to turn lead
into gold. |
Which is true of the overwhelming majority of proteins...
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Molecular Manipulations
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Indeed, think this is in your reach aga?
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
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polypyrrole
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One day...
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Zombie
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This is insanely complex, and very interesting. I now wonder how much other stuff is happening every day the i / we have no clue about.
Ok, crystals are not really effected by conditions in space in any unexpected way.
How about things like the sodium / water reaction that was posted here awhile back.
The one that stated it was believed that an oxidation layer would/should prevent the spontaneous transfer of molecules that really is taking place?
Can you see a scenario where something like this reaction could occur with other chemical compounds or elements that would or should not take place?
Perhaps two or more normally non reactive ingredients become reactive either due to vacuum, or lack of oxygen, nitrogen, gravity...
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie | This is insanely complex, and very interesting. I now wonder how much other stuff is happening every day the i / we have no clue about.
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'Artificial life':
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10132762
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Zombie
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Hell, At first glance all I could think of was the movie Terminator.
Then I got to this part:
"The advance did not pose a danger in the form of bio-terrorism, Dr Venter said.
"That was reviewed extensively in the US in a report from Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) and a Washington defence think tank, indicating
that there were very small new dangers from this."
I suddenly realized there was nothing to worry about. If the Defense Dept., and MIT say it's just a "very small new dangers", I'm fine with that.
Have these ape brained retards gone MAD?
[Edited on 5-8-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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aga
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Absurdly Yes, despite my almost complete ignorance.
Me, as in my Body, makes it as an when required.
Yours still does, yet in insufficient quantity.
Sadly we have almost no understanding of how this happens, or how to do the same, external to our own bodies.
| Quote: Originally posted by polypyrrole | Insulin is a hugely complex molecule, currently it's produced by genetically modified micro organisms that are infinitely better chemists than even
our most gifted.
Total synthesis of insulin is beyond even the most well equipped high level research labs, as an enthusiast, you might as well be trying to turn lead
into gold. |
Extraction of Insulin turns pigs into Gold, and you get the bonus of selling the meat as well, which = more Gold.
It is extremely annoying that we embody all of these syntheses yet cannot accomplish even a tiny fraction of them.
Perhaps this could be the start of a new Science : manipulate syntheses inside our own bodies ?
Without a life-or-death requirement, it's unlikely that anyone would attempt to use their own body as an experimental reactor, unless they were truly
insane.
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phlogiston
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I have actually worked in a laboratory where we used truly synthetic insulin (made by chemical methods, not biological) which was prepared for us by a
collaborator for our experiment. So, while difficult, it is definately possible.
Simple, active proteins can be synthesized too by chemical means and in fact there are commercial services that will make peptides with as many as
100's of amino acids for you. I have used one such service to have them prepare an enzyme for me made entirely out of D-amino acids, because I needed
a specific enzyme with the reverse stereospecificity. Worked like a charm (very costly though).
It is trivial to collect and purify insulin from a layer of the right cells growing in a culture flask, and the processes by which the cells make the
insulin are quite well understood (but remains the focus of much research, and especially the regulation of its synthesis and excretion by the cells).
-----
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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blogfast25
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Not sure who you're referring to but that kind unspecified fears (I suppose that's what they are, not sure about that either) should impress no one.
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Zombie
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It's not meant to impress anyone.
IF you can bio engineer any living organism you like simply by synthesizing its DNA, then how can anyone make the statement "very small new
dangers"?
The implications of this are monumental.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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I think you should probably read up on this technology before making Barnum-style statements.
What Venter and his time has done is extremely interesting but far less spectacular than I believe you imagine.
Do you have any idea for instance how exactly DNA codes the primary structure of proteins?
[Edited on 9-5-2015 by blogfast25]
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Mailinmypocket
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | As a chemist enthusiast, have you ever attempted to extract/fabricate insulin ?
Clearly it can be done, as you have a steady supply.
Personally if i were diabetic, i would be sorely tempted to systhesise my own, which would kind of square the body/mind thing neatly.
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I have considered trying to isolate the insulin from some expired vials I have. Since there must be about 100 penfills kicking around the fridge. But
I never actually bothered because it just didn't seem like a useful idea. Not to mention the other stuff in there like phenol etc that would just
complicate things. Trust me though, I've often thought of doing it!
Note to self: Tare the damned flask.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
I think you should probably read up on this technology before making Barnum-style statements.
What Venter and his time has done is extremely interesting but far less spectacular than I believe you imagine.
Do you have any idea for instance how exactly DNA codes the primary structure of proteins?
[Edited on 9-5-2015 by blogfast25] |
In my simplistic understanding, DNA is the instruction set that determines what a cell will become.
So IF you are creating synthetic DNA to encode cells, you can pretty much create any living thing you wish. The way I see it the beginnings would be
simple organisms such as bacteria , and or viruses.
Much like an early computer program, creating simple tasks.
Then , just as in programming exponential gains in understanding lead to longer "codes", and more complex programs or DNA sequences.
Combine synthetic DNA sequencing with stem cell research, and anything is possible... Jellyfish, frogs, mice, lion dogs, soldiers, presidents... It's
just a matter of elongating the DNA sequence.
I think!
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie | [
Combine synthetic DNA sequencing with stem cell research, and anything is possible... Jellyfish, frogs, mice, lion dogs, soldiers, presidents... It's
just a matter of elongating the DNA sequence.
I think!
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Yeah, that's the 'Boys from Brazil' version of reality. But it's NOT reality. No wonder you're scared.
Although the DNA of an organism is <i>in principle</i> the blueprint for that organism, in reality we don't really know how that works at
all (although we're learning, of course).
When we sequence the DNA of an existing organism, we've made a copy of the book but we don't really know what the book tells us yet.
What has been understood is how specific snippets of the book codify for specific proteins that make up the organism.
Venter's 'AL' cells are cobbled together from existing snippets of DNA and other bits and bobs that his team knows and understands. No 'new' code is
being generated. It's a bit like writing a computer app from known, existing subroutines.
We're as far from creating fancy jellyfish as a man on the top of Empire State building is on his way to the Moon.
[Edited on 9-5-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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The word exponential is the key to my thoughts on this.
Implanting "code" into anything, and having it work is the giant step toward that moon landing. From there I believe everything would be simpler to
understand.
We as a species are on the top of the Empire State Bldg. in so many new technologies that the moment we are on the moon is just a breath away.
I liken it to my daily life.
I have 15 -20 different projects all underway at the same time. Everyday I complete one more step in some or all of them. Eventually they will all be
complete, and I will have a whole new world to enjoy.
Science is exactly the same. There are so many projects so close to being breakthroughs...
I guess you can say I am concerned more than scared. Look at the history of the way life has gone in the past 100 years.
All of these "advancements that were promised to reduce human suffering, ease the individuals work load, make a safer, and more habitual planet have
backfired or have had ulterior motives built in from the inception.
Just take a computer for example. The goal was to lighten an individuals work load. Let the science machine do the work...
Look at what we do today. At Least a weeks worth of work in one day. Transcribing, editing, calculations, ordering, inventory, the list is almost
endless. If the true gaol was to make life easier... It was a complete failure.
We are all under so much more pressure to do a months worth of work in one week. A years worth of work in one month. I'm sure you see the point.
Now take the DNA guys, and the stem cell guys. Put them in a room together, and Super monkey tailed jellyfish that can fly, and run a nation.
I'm not scared, I can just see that we are too close to doing things that we know to little about.
What IF. One of these bacterium finds it's way onto a pant cuff (who wears cuffs? Scientists...) That pair of pants goes to the dry cleaners, and
before you know it the owner of the shop has jelly fish all over the place.
Just sayin'
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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If there’s one thing we can agree on, it’s that most technological developments are driven by commercial interests and not by concerns for
humanity’s well-being. But that doesn't change anything.
Computers need electricity. What does that say about Thomas Edison? He wanted to be come as rich as the ocean was deep and willing to trample over
dead bodies to achieve that goal (see his downright criminal behaviour towards Nikola Tesla, while conspiring with that other great villain, J.P.
Morgan).
Would you argue that the electrification of the world was a Bad Thing?
How about moonshining? Even purely legitimate alcohol, as much as I enjoy it, has brought untold misery to millions. That’s a simple FACT!
Prohibition, anyone?
| Quote: | | What IF. One of these bacterium finds it's way onto a pant cuff (who wears cuffs? Scientists...) That pair of pants goes to the dry cleaners, and
before you know it the owner of the shop has jelly fish all over the place. |
Where’s my ‘rolling eyes to heaven’ emoticon, when I need it? Fears about genomes ‘going beserk in the wild’ are as irrational as those very
similar fears about GMOs (which you stated not to have a problem with).
Bottom line remains that most of your fears are largely the result of scant and cartoonish knowledge about genomics/proteomics and modern molecular
biology.
A few extra syllables about 'synthetic life':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_biology#Synthetic_lif...
[Edited on 9-5-2015 by blogfast25]
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AJKOER
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Back on the thread topic of "Extra Terrestrial Reactions", as I previously commented on in SM, I came across an interesting article "OXIDATION OF
CHLORIDE TO PERCHLORATE UNDER AMBIENT MARS CONDITIONS", by B. L. Carrier* and S. P. Kounaves, Department of Chemistry, Tufts University, Medford, MA,
02155, link: http://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2014/pdf/2570.pdf .
The point of the article is to explain the significant amount of perchlorate formation on Mars from chloride. An important quote, in my opinion, is:
"One possible pathway is the heterogeneous reaction of soil chlorides with atmospherically produced oxidants or oxidants generated photochemically at
the surface. An ongoing source of perchlorate formation would indicate the likely presence of other oxychlorine species during the oxidation of
chloride to perchlorate, such as ClO-, ClO2- and ClO2(g) as well as other possible radicals such as ●OCl, ●Cl, or ●OH. The presence of these
intermediates has implications for the survivability of organics on the surface due to their high reduction potentials. The current research aims to
investigate the formation pathway for perchlorate on mineral surfaces under current Mars conditions. "
My point here is that chemistry on other planets without our special (and rare) protective atmosphere can be a case of photolysis gone wild. Of
course, if you are very far from your sun, then you are an ice ball.
[Edited on 9-5-2015 by AJKOER]
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aga
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You hit the nail on the head AJ.
Reaction conditions on this Planet are not the same elsewhere.
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blogfast25
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That's kind of true and false at the same time. For instance the chemistry AJ is referring to can be reproduced here on Earth easily.
If you're talking about reactions that specifically rely on atmospheric conditions of a specific planet then you're right but I would
have thought that was self-evident.
The LAWS of the Universe, including those that rule chemistry, are the same throughout the Universe though. There's no reason AT ALL why you couldn't
have a laboratory on Mars to study chemistry, of WHATEVER kind.
To reiterate your original question, "It occurred to me that our Standard Conditions may well be self-limiting", we study chemistry in an
amazingly broad range of temperatures, concentrations, pressures and other variables.
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aga
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Good point.
We also study all physical laws from the standpoint of an ape on this Planet, with an ape brain to interpret it all, from that standpoint.
It would be immensely interesting to speak to an intelligent life form that evolved inside a Star.
The correlations and variances would be awesome.
Edit.
Made the S bigger.
[Edited on 9-5-2015 by aga]
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Etaoin Shrdlu
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That story made me so happy when I heard it. That would have been pure science fiction when I was a kid.
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Zombie
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Isn't this going backwards?
I believe I asked what chemical reactions that we take for granted are different in different conditions.
I asked about crystals, and it was explained.
Now you are explaining there ARE differences in other reactions.
What are the implications?
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Mesa
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My first impression when I skimmed the title and images was:
So he's showing them a PCR machine and calling it a breakthrough.
Then I read through it, and I'm still waiting for the punchline.
It's not like he discovered the translation coding himself, that was done decades ago.
And given he'll still require some kind of recombinant cell, I'm failing to see any possible application for this that that would be better than the
current ones...
If God understood patent law he'd sue.
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j_sum1
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | Has anyone had a look at how reactions proceed when off the surface of this planet ?
It occurred to me that our Standard Conditions may well be self-limiting. |
Getting back to the original
question...
It seems to me that atmospheres are actually quite rare in the grand scheme of things and oxygen-rich atmospheres even more so. This makes the
chemistry in other locations vastly different.
The majority of the universe is interstellar space -- and most of that intergalactic space. I am not sure exactly how different intergalactic is in
the context of chemistry. In either case, the following applies
Temperature is very low.
Pressure is extraordinarily low.
These two effectively make liquids a non-event. Substances are either solid or they sublime. Solids at that temperature perform no appreciable
chemistry. Gases at that low a pressure are going to have so few collisions that chemistry is inconsequential for these also.
However, depending on the proximity of stars and other interesting bodies, there is likely to be quite a bit of high energy radiation. This will
undoubtedly have an effect on some chemical processes. Visible light is not really going to be a thing, but UV and soft Xrays are likely to cause
some kinds of excitation of molecules that is not common on earth.
There are also processes in stars. Again, this is less chemistry -- temperatures are high enough to fully ionise all atoms and so normal chemical
processes are not possible.
In between the extreme of interstellar space and the stars themselves is a zone where chemistry can happen. Comets have been shown to have simple
organic molecules (of a higher atomic mass than was previously assumed.) They have formed somehow. Similarly, there has to be some interesting
things happening with lighter elements in the gas giants (all over the universe). Jupiter has stripes for a reason. It is a wee bit bigger than my
last chromatography exercise.
Where liquids are possible (and in particular, phase changes) the variety of chemistry goes up. There will exist cycles of elements on various moons
and planets. The exact nature of these depends on the elements present: and nowhere is quite like earth. Other contributing factors are the presence
of radiation of various wavelengths, the temperature and pressure, the mobility of the reactants (which is also affected by gravity).
All of this is deliberately vague -- I know few specifics but have always been fascinated by images that the Voyagers (and the like) have sent back.
There are whole worlds there that are really novel.
From my view, meaningful chemistry only happens in a certain temperature range and within a certain pressure range and requires a degree of mobility
of substances. This limits chemistry study to bodies that are gravitationally bound to a star. In other words, other worlds. there are cool things
happening in stars and in space, but it aint chemistry.
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Mesa
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The only environment I can think of in the known universe that would be inherently unpredictable(and therefore the only interesting ones to this
subject imo) are those that formed in the instance proceeding the big bang.
The rules of physics could have some odd effects in a place where space-time consists of barely more than a singularity.
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