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aga
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There is no such thing as Empty space.
By it's existence, it is there.
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Zombie
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Well that is what I thought, and kept me from discussing that further.
Lets suppose a complete vacuum. Every molecule of everything has been removed. would that void not collapse upon itself, and become a black hole? Or
would that empty space simply cease to exist? Thereby being impossible to attain / maintain?
This goes back to my question about absolute zero being un achievable.
How could absolute zero exist in a state where matter must exist. Strictly speaking I believe it can not.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  |
Well that is what I thought, and kept me from discussing that further.
Lets suppose a complete vacuum. Every molecule of everything has been removed. would that void not collapse upon itself, and become a black hole? Or
would that empty space simply cease to exist? Thereby being impossible to attain / maintain?
This goes back to my question about absolute zero being un achievable.
How could absolute zero exist in a state where matter must exist. Strictly speaking I believe it can not. |
Temperature is simply a measure of molecular/atomic motion. The higher the average speed of the collection of particles (in an isothermal vessel for
instance). Close to 0 K, that average speed of motion is very, very low. Extracting that last bit of kinetic energy is impossible though.
Black holes need massive amounts of mass, which then due to internal gravity collapses in on itself.
There's a massive one at the centre of our Galaxy.
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aga
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My personal ideas regarding Matter, and Dimensions are currently at odds with what is Seen, and what is understood to be the fabric of reality.
The rift is so great that i cannot even attempt to bridge the gap, yet.
[Edited on 23-2-2015 by aga]
[Edited on 23-2-2015 by aga]
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | My personal ideas regarding Matter, and Dimensions are currently at odds with what is Seen, and what is understood to be the fabric of reality.
The rift is so great that i cannot even attempt to bridge the gap, yet.
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That could be a valid PoV, if it's rooted in philosophical concepts like Ontology and Epistemology.
For now I declare those well outside the intentions of the OP and that they would be better discussed in a non-science part of the forum. Could be
very interesting, dare I say 'enlightening', especially in this age of Unreason?
If, on the other hand, it is caused by inebriation that becomes a different matter. That's not to say Kant, Hegel and Marx didn't enjoy a tipple: I
don't know that! 
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Zombie
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Here's to whatever started it all!
Triples for everyone!!! Meet ya' on the floor.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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Sorry, but I don't really dance!
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Zombie
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I'll hook you up w/ some friends.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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mayko
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If you're interested in life as a consequence of the 2LoT, you might check out Arto Annila of the University of Helsinki. He's explored a lot of different systems, such as natural selection and abiogenesis as the unfolding of
entropic processes.
I got excited about their discussion of economies as emergent 2LoT engines, and gathered and crunched some numbers on the thermodynamics of poker competitions. My conclusion: Having a sample size of N=2 sucks. 
al-khemie is not a terrorist organization
"Chemicals, chemicals... I need chemicals!" - George Hayduke
"Wubbalubba dub-dub!" - Rick Sanchez
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Zombie
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Quote from the first link
" Yet evolution is not a random sequence of events. Processes as flows of energy will themselves search by variation and select naturally those ways
and means, such as species and societies or gadgets and galaxies that will consume free energy in the least time. In this way systems step from one
state of symmetry to another by either acquiring or expelling at least one quantum of action. It is the photon, the basic building block of
everything. A step down in free energy is an irreversible step forward in time. "
This sounds similar to England's work.
It is all very interesting. There are many tangents involved but they do combine to an understandable order.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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zed
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Space is space. It isn't nothingness. At least, not in our universe. It is a form (or mixture) of somethingness, that we don't understand very
well.
I thought that was kinda the point of the Higgs experiments. You take some space, overload it with energy, and Shazaam-Whackadoo...you
re-particle-ize it.
Of course, it's all just an illusion. A dream wherein the Supreme Being, consciousness itself, is enjoying a multi-viewpointed Saturday Afternoon
matinee, but you gotta admit the fascinating details are enthralling. Don't look behind the curtain, Dorothy!
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aga
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The Biggie is that we are Time dependent.
We simply cannot easily think outside the Box, which is our attachment to the Time dimension, and similarly the X,Y and Z.
There are More dimensions, and as our natural sensory apparatus don't pick them up, our brains are not naturally able to easily understand or process
them easily.
It's a bit like describing an outdoor Birthday Party, with fireworks, yet we evolved, and exist, totally Inside the bow-tied box containing the
birthday present on one of the tables, yet we can sense there's more going on outside of the box.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | The Biggie is that we are Time dependent.
We simply cannot easily think outside the Box, which is our attachment to the Time dimension, and similarly the X,Y and Z.
There are More dimensions, and as our natural sensory apparatus don't pick them up, our brains are not naturally able to easily understand or process
them easily.
It's a bit like describing an outdoor Birthday Party, with fireworks, yet we evolved, and exist, totally Inside the bow-tied box containing the
birthday present on one of the tables, yet we can sense there's more going on outside of the box. |
I have two sayings that I live my life by...
The ONLY unit of measure is time. (think about that one)
If you want to make God laugh... Tell him what you have planned.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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morganbw
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That fucking second law. Give it a break please.
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Zombie
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I like to cover all the bases. Buddha told me to. 
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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morganbw
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I understand now.
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blogfast25
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Space has dimensions and time flows through it. Even a perfect vacuum isn't 'nothingness' in that sense.
Due to the Uncertainty Principle it turns out that 'perfect' vacuum is teeming with virtual particles that constantly pop in and out of existence.
'Nothingness' is so hard to imagine that I prefer to believe that 'stuff' has always existed, without a beginning, an end or a moment of Creation.
[Edited on 24-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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Let me ask this...
"Space" must be composed of something. Electrons. Protons , Quarks, something.
So that would mean the removal of everything would equate to nothing.
Is this the reason absolute zero or perfect vacuum can not be achieved or maintained?
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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Zombie:
Imagine a strong and impermeable vessel. Now connect it to a very high spec vacuum pump. The pump quite literally removes all matter from the vessel.
So high vacuum contains no matter or very, very little. The space occupied by the vacuum nonetheless exists, undeniably so. It cannot be 'nothing', at
least not by a narrow definition.
A 'perfect' vacuum appears in violation of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle and thus is 'believed' to be filled with virtual particles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle
[Edited on 24-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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Quote:
" So high vacuum contains no matter or very, very little "
Understanding that there is no real explainable answer... The "very little" is the basis of my question, and the virtual particle theory kind of
confirms why the question can not be answered.
I would assume that the moment the last measurable "something was removed from a vacuum, the virtual particle theory would come into play.
Now this begs another question... Could this be the basis of a "big bang" or could it be more similar to a "black hole"?
Immense gravity could be equated to immense vacuum (black hole) OR the absolute removal of particles could be the realization of a virtual particle
"explosion" (big bang).
Risking being a smart ass... I can't believe people get paid for thinking this stuff up.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie |
Now this begs another question... Could this be the basis of a "big bang" or could it be more similar to a "black hole"?
Immense gravity could be equated to immense vacuum (black hole) OR the absolute removal of particles could be the realization of a virtual particle
"explosion" (big bang).
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Neither. Leave a 'big bang' out of it for a minute. A black hole requires the clumping together of immense (almost unimaginably) large amounts of
matter. Extreme 'internal' gravity then causes that matter to collapse in on itself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole
[Edited on 24-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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I hope I am not annoying you with this persistent train of thought.
Taking the force(s) that create a black hole as a theory... and accepting the event horizon as a "barrier" that prevents us from actually knowing what
is or is not contained within...
Is it not possible that a black hole is a source of perfect vacuum, and the event horizon is actually the outer edge of a virtual particle field?
That would tie together all the topics in this thread including theoretical minimum.
Do I sound like that kid that proposed light is thought?
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
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Darkstar
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | A black hole requires the clumping together of immense (almost unimaginably) large amounts of matter. Extreme 'internal' gravity then causes that
matter to collapse in on itself. |
I don't mean to nitpick, but this isn't technically true. Black holes don't need large amounts of mass to form. For your typical
gravitational collapse black hole, yes. However, according to GR, all that's actually required is a mass at least equal to the Planck mass. Anytime
you have a region where the mass or energy in it has become so concentrated that the escape velocity of that region exceeds the speed of light, by
definition, you have a black hole. For example, a microscopic black hole.
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Zombie
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There seems to be a lot of math that is applied, and even more accepted "truths".
Correct me if I am wrong but aren't black holes all theory? Perhaps accepted theory but theory none the less?
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Darkstar | | Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | A black hole requires the clumping together of immense (almost unimaginably) large amounts of matter. Extreme 'internal' gravity then causes that
matter to collapse in on itself. |
I don't mean to nitpick, but this isn't technically true. Black holes don't need large amounts of mass to form. For your typical
gravitational collapse black hole, yes. However, according to GR, all that's actually required is a mass at least equal to the Planck mass. Anytime
you have a region where the mass or energy in it has become so concentrated that the escape velocity of that region exceeds the speed of light, by
definition, you have a black hole. For example, a microscopic black hole. |
Fair enough. So far the only black holes discovered are massive ones though.
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