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blogfast25
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No, they haven't because they never tested anything rigorously.
People also 'use' amulets to 'achieve' things.
And now you're talking HEATED thumpers anyway. A different subject ALTOGETHER.
Where's the thumper in your right hand design?
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  |
No, it isn't: it's the same nonsense re-hashed, 'complexified' w/o any elucidation.
Where in that beautiful design on the right is the thumper?
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
None of those designs contain a thumper. The images are to clarify the statement about "massive columns".
The best way for me to allow you to understand this would be for me to suggest you set up a simple distillation rig, using another vessel as a
thumper, and then a product condenser from there.
When you monitor temps in both vessels, and see the change in all aspects from power input required to switching mole fraction in each container to
final power input required to maintain a Constant rate of product collection, perhaps you could explain all of this correctly.
I am much more of a mechanic, than a chemist so the ling is still lost on me. BUT the process is not.
I'm not being a smart ass, I hope you understand. Having you perform the process, and explain the mechanism would benefit everyone. The experiment can
be carried out with a can of beer.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Luke | it works at boosting alcohol content. Source, i've seen it work.
Its really loud though. The one i saw was using metal, maybe wood would be quieter.
Also you dont start with an empty thumper, you usually fill it with some alchol before you start.
Another thing to mention is besides claiming to increase final abv it cleans the spirit up a bit. So even if it didnt boost abv you'd still do it for
the better flavour profile.
maybe it works because the heat required to boil the higher abv liquid in the thumper is less than the lower abv steam coming in. Water vapour can
carry much more energy than alcohol vapour.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Luke] |
YES! Ehat is exactly how / why it works.
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blogfast25
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Even that is largely baloney. To be certain of any conclusions any comparison (thumper/no thumper) would need to be done rigorously and with accurate
EtOH determinations. Not 'proof', not 'bubbles', not 'dammit, it puts hairs on your chest!' but rigorous chemical determination of ABV.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
No, they haven't because they never tested anything rigorously.
People also 'use' amulets to 'achieve' things.
And now you're talking HEATED thumpers anyway. A different subject ALTOGETHER.
Where's the thumper in your right hand design?
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
No, they haven't because they never tested anything rigorously.
I'm pretty sure they tested their results. Maybe not on a fancy Gas mass spectrometer, but yeah... They knew how to proof hootch.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]
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blogfast25
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Even refractive index would be accurate enough. 'Proofing hooch' means nothing. Nothing to modern distillers either, BTW.
Yours is a belief system, not science.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
Even that is largely baloney. To be certain of any conclusions any comparison (thumper/no thumper) would need to be done rigorously and with accurate
EtOH determinations. Not 'proof', not 'bubbles', not 'dammit, it puts hairs on your chest!' but rigorous chemical determination of ABV.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
This is why I suggest You carry out the experiment or perhaps Any other member of the forum.
I do not have the equipment set up yet to do this in the manner needed to document the process or results.
I Have been around stillin' long enough to tell you that thumpers DO increase ABV, and for the very reasons I seem to fail to be able to explain.
I'm sure there is a scientific article somewhere that deals with this, and I will see what I can do about finding one or more..
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie |
I'm sure there is a scientific article somewhere that deals with this, and I will see what I can do about finding one or more..
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You won't find it. If the principle (of energy generation ex nihilo! ) worked,
petroleum distillers would have refineries FULL of thumpers, in the same way that if the 'HOH' scam worked every carmaker would be using it in their
engines.
Lady Thermodynamics is not for turning.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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http://homedistiller.org/equip/designs/thumper
http://homedistiller.org/equip/jesse
Not scientific but perhaps more information. The first link contains a link to a spread sheet that shows the math on how this works.
I hope it helps.
I have to go put my head in the oven now. Thanks Bert!
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]
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blogfast25
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The first page I linked to on my opening post.
The second one is another one who buys into the myth, from that same site.
Want more of these? I have tens of them!
Hint: truth is not arrived at by majority or by consensus. It is what it is and stands alone, independent of the beholder.
Bert? 'Splain?
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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Bert started the thread! 
Seriously. I would love to perform this as an experiment, as in practice I know it works. (I knew a guy that knew a guy).
There are thousands of thumpers running in the US alone, and every one of them is there for a reason. Increased ABV of the final product.
Did you check that link in the first site? The numbers prove the concept,. Understood I can post up numbers as well. They mean nothing without
verification.
It should be around a month before I have a lab complete enough to run this myself, and Hopefully by that time I will have learned enough to present
the idea concisely enough to qualify as valid.
Perhaps if you wouldn't mind my asking for your assistance in the parameters, and methods required to make this a viable experiment, I think it would
make a fine first step for me.
LOL I just looked back, and saw it was you that started the thread... Entrapment!!!
I should have known it was a duck call I heard.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]
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Chemosynthesis
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Those are very impressive still pictures. Someone here mentioned that the thumpers are insulated. Is this common/mandatory? The reason I ask is that I
am curious about temperatures in the still, and the vapor, versus the temperature of the thumper. This would help correlate heat energies.
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Magpie
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This a fairly simple situation and we should be able to figure it out without doing an experiment, although that would be the ultimate proof.
Thought experiment:
There is no heat transfer into or out of this apparatus:
A pot still is producing a vapor that is 50% alcohol. This vapor is being sparged into the bottom of an open beaker containing liquid 50% alcohol at
the same temperature as the vapor. Vapor will come off the liquid surface of the beaker.
Is this an accurate representation of a thumper in operation? If so, is the vapor coming off the surface of the liquid going to be richer in alcohol
than 50%?
If so, then it is acting like another stage, as Dr Bob has stated.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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subsecret
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How is it detrimental to the discussion? Do you have a problem with the entire post or just that sentence?
-
As I see it, the thumper is like a liquid fractionating column, the problem being that there's no return to the pot.. As long as the temperature is
kept just above the BP of alcohol, it could work to increase efficiency. As the thumper fills and becomes more diluted, efficiency would decrease.
@ Chemosynthesis: I'd think that the thumper should be insulated only if it's below he BP of alcohol.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Awesomeness]
Fear is what you get when caution wasn't enough.
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Zombie
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In the case of wooden thumpers no insulation is needed for obvious reasons.
Every distiller I have spoken with all around the world will agree that insulating a metal thumper is best for thermal efficiency, as well as
insulating the entire system from boiler to connecting plumbing.
The kicker comes in... Most distillers are so proud of their stills, and craftsmanship, that covering them up is almost a sin.
Reality of it is YES a still will run more efficiently if insulated but they run just fine while exposed to the atmosphere.
There are really only three schools, and two classes of distillers (excluding fuel producers)
Commercial distilleries. They are just as proud of their gear so no insulation
Hobby distillers / moonshiners. Too proud to cover up.
Technical craft distillers. Some insulate but most don't.
It could be likened to a chemist spray painting all his apparatus flat black.
1/2 the enjoyment is looking at your beat up, pogged together handy work.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]
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Oscilllator
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blogfast25 it seems to me that your argument that bumpers violate the second law of thermodynamics is based on the assumption that
the flow rate into the bumper is equal to the flow rate out of the bumper. If this assumption was correct then yes of course the bumper wouldn't work.
However if the flow rate out of the bumper was significantly less than the flow rate in, then the energy required to provide additional separation
could be obtained from the portion of the vapour that condenses and does not leave the bumper. This avoids violating the laws of thermodynamics and
can even account for heat loss to the environment.
Personally, I think what happens is this:
The hot vapour leaves the still at a concentration of 50% (for example). This vapour travels into the bumper where it condenses, heating the water.
Once enough of the vapour has condensed, the temperature in the bumper will be raised to the extent that it is above the boiling point of ethanol.
When this happens, water will still condense in the bumper, however the the ethanol will not. This means that the ethanol concentration in the vapour
phase has been increased to above 50%, and the energy for this separation has been provided by the condensation of water vapour in the bumper.
Note that if the bumper were to be completely insulated then the temperature of the liquid in the bumper would increase until it was equal to the
vapour temperature, at which point the ethanol vapour would no longer increase in concentration. So we can see here that heat loss to the environment
is actually essential for this process to work.
I hope this helps explain the process and serves as a lesson in not being to hasty in dismissing a process just because rednecks do it, and it
initially seems like it shouldn't work 
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Magpie
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Based on the equilibrium diagram for the ethanol-water system:
If the liquid in the thumper is at 50 wt% ethanol and the incoming submerged vapor from the still is at the same concentration, the equilibrium vapor
in the thumper will be at 76 wt% ethanol.
So I'm going to have to reverse myself and eat some crow.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | This a fairly simple situation and we should be able to figure it out without doing an experiment, although that would be the ultimate proof.
Thought experiment:
There is no heat transfer into or out of this apparatus:
A pot still is producing a vapor that is 50% alcohol. This vapor is being sparged into the bottom of an open beaker containing liquid 50% alcohol at
the same temperature as the vapor. Vapor will come off the liquid surface of the beaker.
Is this an accurate representation of a thumper in operation? If so, is the vapor coming off the surface of the liquid going to be richer in alcohol
than 50%?
If so, then it is acting like another stage, as Dr Bob has stated. |
Close...
The mixture in the boiler is approx. 10% alcohol
The begining of the run or heat up will produce approx 60% alcohol/ 40% water vapor due to the different volitilities.
The vapor is inject to the bottom of the flask/thump, and that flask contains the SAME 10% mixture as the first (boiler).
The first moments of the process will begin filling the flask, and emptying the boiler. As the alcohol becomes more concentrated in the flask the
boiling point is lowering thus creating an environment where LESS energy is required to form a new round of vaporization.
While this is happening the temperature in the boiler is rising due to the boiling point increasing, and the input power remaining the same.
As the process continues it creates a progressive action / reaction. Eventually the spent liquid in the boiler will be 1 - 3 ABV, and be boiling near
212*f, and the flask will be at or near 160 ABV with a boiling point near 185*f
It is easy to understand once you sample the results.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]
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Zombie
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Quote:Oscillator
blogfast25 it seems to me that your argument that bumpers violate the second law of thermodynamics is based on the assumption that the flow rate into
the bumper is equal to the flow rate out of the bumper. If this assumption was correct then yes of course the bumper wouldn't work.
However if the flow rate out of the bumper was significantly less than the flow rate in, then the energy required to provide additional separation
could be obtained from the portion of the vapour that condenses and does not leave the bumper. This avoids violating the laws of thermodynamics and
can even account for heat loss to the environment."
This is exactly right.
You are extracting approx. 40% water from the boiler, and 60% alch.
The thumper is passing approx 20% water, and 80% alch.
The boiling point in the thumper is lower that when it began.
Edit:
"I hope this helps explain the process and serves as a lesson in not being to hasty in dismissing a process just because rednecks do it, and it
initially seems like it shouldn't work "
I love you!
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]
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Luke
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does anyone know how to post a pic? I thought it might help explain it a little.
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Magpie
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I know that making moonshine is a batch process so concentrations must be changing both in the pot and in the thumper as the batch proceeds.
But if the thumper operates as in my last post then it's alcohol content has to be steadily decreasing. This concentration should decrease until the
outgoing vapor in equilibrium with it matches that of the incoming vapor from the pot. At this point a steady state would be reached and no alcohol
concentration increase across the thumper would exist. But the pot is steadily decreasing in alcohol concentration also so maybe a steady state is
never really reached. It seems that this would depend on batch size, thumper size, etc.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Chemosynthesis
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[img]hotlinkable_url_here[/img] note that I had to turn my BBCode off in the right hand options of my post, for you to see my pseudo code.
It does sound to me as though this is a second stage distillation that thermally equilibrates while the abv. increases with condensation. I was trying
to envision this similar to how Magpie had thought it up as well.
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Luke
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| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | I know that making moonshine is a batch process so concentrations must be changing both in the pot and in the thumper as the batch proceeds.
But if the thumper operates as in my last post then it's alcohol content has to be steadily decreasing. This concentration should decrease until the
outgoing vapor in equilibrium with it matches that of the incoming vapor from the pot. At this point a steady state would be reached and no alcohol
concentration increase across the thumper would exist. But the pot is steadily decreasing in alcohol concentration also so maybe a steady state is
never really reached. It seems that this would depend on batch size, thumper size, etc. |
This is exactly right, alcohol content decreases as the batch goes on. This is a good thing in pot distillation though as different compounds come
over at different times.
The still operator will take small samples throughout the run and then decide which ones to put into the final spirit. Usually the first quarter or
third of the run is discarded, and the last third is discarded.
The stuff in the middle of the run is called the hearts and is diluted to 65% abv and then aged on oak.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | I know that making moonshine is a batch process so concentrations must be changing both in the pot and in the thumper as the batch proceeds.
But if the thumper operates as in my last post then it's alcohol content has to be steadily decreasing. This concentration should decrease until the
outgoing vapor in equilibrium with it matches that of the incoming vapor from the pot. At this point a steady state would be reached and no alcohol
concentration increase across the thumper would exist. But the pot is steadily decreasing in alcohol concentration also so maybe a steady state is
never really reached. It seems that this would depend on batch size, thumper size, etc. |
As I understand what you are saying is mostly correct.
The point that makes it work is the alcohol is evaporating into the thumper where the heated or vapor state alcohol is is hotter than the liquid
state. As this hot vapor passes thru the liquid alcohol it attracts more alhc., and the vapor becomes more concentrated. The water in the thumper is
hot enough to create this situation.
The liquid alch. is looking for a way out, and the vapor bubble allows this to happen.
I really can't explain it any better. It's based on percentages or mole fractions, density, and heat required to separate the two changing mixtures.
It works on a curve, and not linear.
The more alcohol that enters the thumper the lower the boiling point is.
The more alch. that exits the boiler the higher the temp gets
It is in essence a self feeding machine until the Alch is gone, and then the temps. equalize, and the process goes back to exactly what BlogFast
states. Impossible.
Mole fractions, and heat required to process.
 
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Luke | | Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | I know that making moonshine is a batch process so concentrations must be changing both in the pot and in the thumper as the batch proceeds.
But if the thumper operates as in my last post then it's alcohol content has to be steadily decreasing. This concentration should decrease until the
outgoing vapor in equilibrium with it matches that of the incoming vapor from the pot. At this point a steady state would be reached and no alcohol
concentration increase across the thumper would exist. But the pot is steadily decreasing in alcohol concentration also so maybe a steady state is
never really reached. It seems that this would depend on batch size, thumper size, etc. |
This is exactly right, alcohol content decreases as the batch goes on. This is a good thing in pot distillation though as different compounds come
over at different times.
The still operator will take small samples throughout the run and then decide which ones to put into the final spirit. Usually the first quarter or
third of the run is discarded, and the last third is discarded.
The stuff in the middle of the run is called the hearts and is diluted to 65% abv and then aged on oak. |
We HAVE to hang out Luke. But you have to toss out less hootch...
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