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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
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Mood: Waiting for spring
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I don't especially care about ephedrine/pseudoephedrine one way or another. What I do care about is the ongoing difficulty that a curious private
individual will face trying to buy (for example) benzaldehyde, red phosphorus, and piperidine. Those materials should be in any reasonably
well-stocked lab, and have numerous legitimate uses, but are difficult for hobbyists to acquire. Even if easy homecooked meth goes away as the key
alkaloids become hard to acquire, I bet the DEA will never un-control phosphorus now that they have controlled it. For example, even though quaaludes
are about 20 years out of vogue in the US, anthranilic acid is still List I. I'd love to be wrong, though.
| Quote: | | To follow this idea, if you are pursuing legitimate or (if you're anything like me) mostly legitimate experiments, then you've little to fear
from ordering suspicious reagents. It may be an inconvenience that some useful reagents are not availiable to you, but by the same token there are
also ways around these incoveniences. Clandestine chemists don't give chemists a bad name any more than bank robbers give soldiers a bad name.
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I don't think I would mind ordering suspicious reagents if I knew a seller for them. Even things that are not explicitly forbidden for sale may be de
facto unavailable if enough vendors are scared by the potential liability involved with selling suspicious or potentially dangerous items to people
unaffiliated with a business or institution. For example, I understand (perhaps wrongly) that it is difficult to purchase LAH or potassium cyanide as
an individual, even though to my knowledge neither is explicitly controlled for domestic sale and both have a plethora of legitimate uses. The spectre
of liability alone is enough to lock a wide variety of useful reagents away from hobbyists.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
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Law Enforcement is under huge media pressure. If your lab gets busted with something remotely suspicious, the media will make a witchhunt out of it
and LE will have no choice but to put you behind bars or make your life miserable.
What is easier? Sacrificing one individual or being barraged with questions like "But what about the children??!"?
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
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Location: USA
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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Pacific Northwest States have joined forces to crackdown on meth by forming the "Pacific Northwest Pre-Cursor Chemical Committee." It "...will focus
on monitoring sales of anhydrous ammonia, red phosphorous, and hydriotic acid...." Aren't these List I and therefore already heavily watched? Is
this just another redundant law enforcement committee?
The article also mentioned that meth makers in Mexico and Canada get their ephedrine/pseudoephedrine from China, India, and Germany.
They want those sellers to be more selective about who they are selling to.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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garage chemist
chemical wizard
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Registered: 16-8-2004
Location: Germany
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Pseudoephedrine is heavily controlled in Germany, and private possession of it is illegal. German firms who are selling pseudo to individuals are
commiting a crime.
In Germany, benzaldehyde and red phosphorus are relatively easy to get (relatively in comparison to America). Their possession is not illegal at all
(but that has probably a lot to do with ephedrine and pseudoephedrine not being available in OTC medicines- all kinds of medicines are only sold in
pharmacies).
Acetic anhydride is heavily watched, but when you fill out the required forms you are fine.
However, there's exactly one firm in germany who sells AA to individuals, and no more than 250ml per person.
Red Phosphorus is limited to 50g per person by this firm... I have no idea why they are doing this, laws don't require them to do so.
Chemicals labeled as toxic can not be bought from any internet suppliers. That means that you will never get any CS2, for example, if you search the
internet for shops. Even simple things like Methanol can't be ordered (the difficulty of acquiring Methanol is annoying in Germany).
Trying to make all important chemicals from OTC things can be a challenge, but when you gain more knowledge, it becomes annoying. Then you start
ordering chemicals from online suppliers, but you are limited to non- toxic ones.
This also becomes annoying when you realize that many chemicals not sold in internet shops are essential for many syntheses. Most of them you can make
yourself, but not all. Acetic Anhydride, Carbon Disulfide, Phosphorus and so on are some of the best known examples.
And this is the time when you stop messing with internet shops and take the courage to GO TO THE PHARMACY and order your required materials there.
This is true for all countries, not just Germany.
Most pharmacies will not cooperate, but once you find one where for example the owner was a hobby chemist himself in his young years, you are set.
You'll browse through the Sigma- Aldrich catalog, pick out the things that you want, print them out into a list (with item numbers and prices) and let
the order go over the pharmacy.
That's the way the advanced hobby chemists obtain their stuff, and every one that pursues his hobby for more than a few years will eventually settle
on this method to obtain their chems.
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Magpie
lab constructor
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GC, I find your situation in Germany very interesting compared to my situation in the US. I finally did get up the courage to ask 2 pharmacies to
order chemicals for me. They didn't oppose this in concept but when they consulted their supplier listings there didn't seem to be much available in
the line of pure, powerful reagents, like you have mentioned. So I gave up for now. Also I am still in the stage where I think I can synthesize
anything, given enough time and effort. Like you I will likely get annoyed with this approach in time.
I have been cultivating a friendship with a pharmacist. Whether he would go to the extra effort to buy me exotic chemicals outside his catalog or not
I don't yet know. I have the feeling that they all want to cover their ass from any potential criticism from LE, DEA, EPA, CPSC, etc. Maybe this is
just my paranoia and not real.
I find what you say about methanol very interesting. I can easily buy all of this I want cheaply as it is sold as an automobile gasoline tank
additive. Also, H2SO4 is easy to obtained in high strength and decent purity as a drain cleaner.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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evil_lurker
National Hazard
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I'd like to point out that KCN and NaCN are both considered chemical weapons and your likely to attract attention from a bunch of folks worse than the
DEA if you are in the USA.
And that they happen to put some "foamy shit" in the sulfuric acid drain cleaner, or at least the Rooto brand in the USA.
The same "foamy shit" problem wasn't there in the ACS grade stuff I eventually had to switch over and use.
What brand are you using Magpie?
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DeAdFX
Hazard to Others
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When did they add this foamy shit... Mine rooto doesn't have that stuff
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garage chemist
chemical wizard
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Registered: 16-8-2004
Location: Germany
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Neither H2SO4 nor Methanol are available OTC in Germany.
Conc. H2SO4 must always be obtained from a chemical supplier, and Methanol too.
My first H2SO4 (250ml) came from Kremer Pigmente, after asking my father to buy some battery acid in a car repair shop (they wouldn't sell him any).
Though the laws in Germany are definately better than in America.
I can buy red Phosphorus and make as much white Phosphorus from this as I want.
I even managed to make PCl3 and acetyl chloride from this.
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The_Davster
A pnictogen
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Registered: 18-11-2003
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Canada is somewhere in between. Technically I can get whatever through my various suppliers, but some stuff I just would be too scared to purchase.
Up here I can get both sulfuric acid drainopener and methanol but the sulfuric is expensive at 15$ a litre(ACS is cheaper), and well there is noting
wrong with the methanol at 5$ for 4L... Denatured ethanol is almost nonexistant OTC though.
I should try the pharmacy route for chemicals though, I never have.
[Edited on 27-3-2006 by rogue chemist]
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12AX7
Post Harlot
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| Quote: | Originally posted by rogue chemist
Denatured ethanol is almost nonexistant OTC though.
I should try the pharmacy route though, I never have.
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"Okay and what will you be needing this ethanol for?"
"Uhhh it's for my headaches....."
LOL, yeah, causing them!
Tim
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garage chemist
chemical wizard
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Registered: 16-8-2004
Location: Germany
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Denatured Ethanol is one of the easiest to get chemicals here.
Several very good brands of Ethanol are sold in home stores.
They are denatured with 2% MEK and sometimes Bitrex, and contain at least 94% Ethanol (and absolutely no Methanol).
After removal of Bitrex by distillation and removal of MEK by prolonged refluxing with NaOH followed by distillation this stuff is theoretically
drinkable. It smells and tastes very clean.
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waiting for spring
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| Quote: | Originally posted by evil_lurker
I'd like to point out that KCN and NaCN are both considered chemical weapons and your likely to attract attention from a bunch of folks worse than the
DEA if you are in the USA. |
They're chemical weapons no more than chlorine is. That is, international transfers may be controlled under the chemical weapons convention, and LEO
may excitedly bray about chemical weapons if they arrest someone who had cyanides and looked to be up to no good, but they have many legitimate uses
and there is no national regulation of cyanide sales or possession that I am aware of. If I'm to believe accounts in alt.suicide.methods, most
businesses that sell cyanides will simply ignore inquiries from private individuals, or follow up with a request for a statement of purpose and/or
documentation of business/institutional affiliation. They don't sic the FBI on you, but neither do they readily sell to individuals either.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
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Mood: Waiting for spring
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| Quote: | Originally posted by garage chemist
Denatured Ethanol is one of the easiest to get chemicals here.
Several very good brands of Ethanol are sold in home stores.
They are denatured with 2% MEK and sometimes Bitrex, and contain at least 94% Ethanol (and absolutely no Methanol).
After removal of Bitrex by distillation and removal of MEK by prolonged refluxing with NaOH followed by distillation this stuff is theoretically
drinkable. It smells and tastes very clean. |
You're lucky. I found after some MSDS research that much (all?) of the "denatured alcohol" sold in the US is about half methanol. It has very little
use apart from solvent or fuel.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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Evil lurker the brand I bought is Rooto. It is not ACS pure of course but I have not experienced any noticeable problems (yet). I have to admit that
I'm surprised that you can buy Rooto so readily. It seems that all the other OTC drain cleaners are full of worthless shit. I did find another pure
H2SO4 drain cleaner but it was only available to plumbers and not OTC.
I have seen denatured ethanol readily available in the hardware stores. I imagine it is sold to remove shellac or otherwise prepare wood sufaces.
GC I find it amazing that you can buy red phosphorus but not battery acid. German authorities must have a totally different mindset than US
authorities.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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The_Davster
A pnictogen
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Registered: 18-11-2003
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Almost forgot, there is only one OTC source I know of for denatured alcohol. A single pharmacy selling it at around 2$ for 500mLs as "rubbing alcohol
compound". It is 95% EtOH denatured with camphor, diethylbenzyl benzoate, and diethyl phthalate.
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Vitus_Verdegast
Hazard to Others
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Registered: 5-12-2004
Location: Ottoman Empire
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The pharmacy approach seems to differ not only from country to country, but also depends highly on the pharmacist itself.
One straight-collared nosey type ("the fascist-looking type") even hesitated to sell me boric acid, wanting me to give my personal details and what I
was going to use this for. Generally pharmacists tend to be very nosey.
On the other hand, the nice little old lady pharmacist at the other side of town gladly order all I want from the ACROS or ALDRICH catalogue, provided
that she also has a nice cut (I let her think I'm unaware of the catalogue prices). She asks no questions except that I should be careful in my work
 I've told her stories about photography and my like for general experimenting
when I first went there.
The pharmacy supply houses tend to carry alot of interesting stuff in their catalogues too, such as diethyl ether, acetaldehyde, benzyl alcohol,
piperazine, iodine etc.. although the prices are high. (or can be considered normal these days as the catalogue I have is from 2003)
The "desinfecting alcohol" they carry here at the pharmacy is only denatured with 5% ether. People even make liquor pralines with it (guess the
chocolate can overpower the ether-taste?) Prices fluctuate enormously from pharmacist to pharmacist, the one charges you 10 euros/l and the other
sells you a gallon for 20 euros.
En France you can buy drinkable ethanol for only 9 euros/l but diethyl ether is only on prescription.
I think wherever you are you've got to try to get well acquinted with a pharmacist.
Sic transit gloria mundi
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Sandmeyer
National Hazard
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Registered: 9-1-2005
Location: Internet
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by Vitus_VerdegastThe "desinfecting alcohol" they carry here at the pharmacy is only denatured with 5% ether. People even
make liquor pralines with it (guess the chocolate can overpower the ether-taste?) |
Hmm, interesting denaturation agnet pretty much useless.
I guess by the time they made the paralines ether simply evaporated...
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Vitus_Verdegast
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It's actually a clever trick, as ether isn't really that poisonous but even if you fractionally distill it, you never get the ether taste out of the
alcohol.
All by all, it is better for an alcoholic than drinking eau-de-cologne
Sic transit gloria mundi
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neutrino
International Hazard
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Couldn't you just bubble air through it for a while until the ether evaporates out due to its higher volatility? There's no need for fancy fractional
distillation here.
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Vitus_Verdegast
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Yes, probably. I never bother to remove it as ether is inert in most of the reactions I use ethanol for.
I don't usually drink it neither, but apparantly even traces of ether give a foul taste to it if you attempt to drink the diluted solution with the
ether removed.
I assumed that was probably the reason why they used ether to denature it in the first place.
Sic transit gloria mundi
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Nicodem
Super Moderator
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However, I heard that ingested ether is equally narcotic as if consumed by inhalation. One ml of ether is supposed to already be quite active
(contained already in 20 ml of 5% ethanolic ether).
Though the horrible taste and smell might deter any average person, some alcoholics might even prefer the extra ether sedation. After all, during the
prohibition there were people who drunk alcohol denaturated with organofosphate poisons, so if the point was to make that ethanol undrinkable it might
have been missed. Luckily for such alcoholics there is no alcohol prohibition.
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
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Sergei_Eisenstein
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| Quote: | | Though the horrible taste and smell might deter any average person, some alcoholics might even prefer the extra ether sedation.
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Horrible smell?  One of my favorite things to do in my lab is to open the
bottle of ether and have a sniff. It surely warps me into another dimension for a few seconds. It probably is not too healthy either, but that other
dimension is just too interesting to leave unspoiled. But yes, I've already noticed most people don't like the smell of ether. They prefer the exhaust
of automobiles instead.
damnant quod non intelligunt
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Vitus_Verdegast
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I remember when I visited my grandmother once, we were looking outside and there was a little old lady strolling down the street, very slowly, she
needed to hold on to fences, shrubs ... to get on her way.
I remember saying to my grandmother how pitiful that old wretched lady looked and asked her what the problem was.
My grandmother answered that the lady wasn't handicapped at all but that she was an ether-drunk.
Apparantely it used to be popular amongst alcoholics in the old days, my grandmother told me you can get drunk 3 or 4 times a day from it, as the
effects last shorter than ethanol. Nowadays where I live it seems to still be popular amongst the elderly (it is OTC in the pharmacy here)
Sic transit gloria mundi
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Sandmeyer
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Sergei, I also find the ether dimension interesting it's among the most intense feelings, it can be insightful too, even if it sounds unbelivable.
If you like ether dimension I invite you to try diisopropylether, it's more
interesting than plain ether as it literally sends a plesent cold breeze throughout the every cell in your body, walking gives very plesent cold
sensation and the smell/taste is plesent too, higher doses give vague visuals but mostly auditory hallucinations...
[Edited on 18-7-2006 by Sandmeyer]
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Sergei_Eisenstein
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I worked with diisopropylether only a few times. I found it to have a very interesting fruity smell, inviting for more. But I found the smell to be
lingering far longer as diethylether as well. I can't remember I experienced the same effects as you describe, but there are only few ways to find it
out, I guess.
damnant quod non intelligunt
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