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The Volatile Chemist
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Quote: Originally posted by zts16  | | Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist | All I can say is, if that really is what will happen, little-ghost, then Europe will fall to communism, and the US will rise as the capitalist center
of the world again, hurrah!
Actually, it'd probably be china :/ |
Don't even go there TVC.
On topic though, yeah, it's really disappointing that the EU would make these awful regulations. I mean, I'm in Texas and it's even looking pretty
good now in comparison. |
I was joking :/
Besides, I'm from the US, I don't really have any ties to europe directly. Now, mind you, I really want to start a chemical Lab in germany....
They all don't need 'civil disobedience or rebellion, gardul, they just need to personally need to not listen to the rather rediculus rules. At
worst, we just sell those in the EU the chemicals ourselves. They don't need to 'rebel'.
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gardul
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If chemists don't follow their laws, to me that is civil disobedience. Which can be a form of rebellion. Passive aggressive but still.
I just made you read this very pointless signature. How does it feel?
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Texium
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True, not following rules, no matter how silly they are, is pretty much the very definition of civil disobedience. Most likely though, it probably
won't even cause a stir, since as long as you don't draw any attention to yourself, and aren't actually doing anything really wrong, they
probably won't waste any time and money going through the legal process on you, and they'll let it slide. That's currently the situation in Texas, it
seems.
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Brain&Force
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Well, note that it's CIVIL disobedience – not criminal disobedience. We ain't killing people.
Happy 1000 posts zts16!
At the end of the day, simulating atoms doesn't beat working with the real things...
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gardul
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I just want to make it clear, I never stated or thought people of the EU should start killing people. If I came off like that's what I meant I'm
sorry.
I just made you read this very pointless signature. How does it feel?
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Brain&Force
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| Quote: Originally posted by gardul | | I just want to make it clear, I never stated or thought people of the EU should start killing people. If I came off like that's what I meant I'm
sorry. |
Oh, no, I'm just saying that we're not threatening anyone, it's just that everyone is paranoid!
At the end of the day, simulating atoms doesn't beat working with the real things...
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turd
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| Quote: Originally posted by gardul | | I would highly recommand you guys that are in parts of the world that have to deal with the EU to perhaps start thinking about. Rebeling.
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You're delusional. How about you try to start a rebellion in your country about not being able to buy trivial reagents like phosphorous or iodine?
You will have a hard time convincing your countrymen that a few pimple-faces cooking up a batch of methamphetamine is no problem (ironically the same
countrymen that will readily feed amphetamines to their kids to shut them up). The same is true in Europe: a very vast part of the population will
support restricted access to bomb-making chemicals.
| Quote: | | If chemists don't follow their laws, to me that is civil disobedience. Which can be a form of rebellion. Passive aggressive but still.
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According to this definition countries like France, Italy or Greece are in a constant state of rebellion. 
Seriously people, let's put all this into perspective:
HNO3 was sadly all but banned - but conc. H2SO4 and nitrates are still available OTC (i.e. no id required). Just make it - that's what I chose to do
because I didn't want my local chemist's to get the wrong ideas about by endeavors.
H2O2, nitromethane and perchlorates are still available in useful concentrations and easily concentrated.
Production / possession of above chemicals at too high concetrations are a minor infraction, comparable to a parking violation. A very
different situation from possessing Pred or I2 in the land of the free.
A few chemicals were added to a kind of official watch-list. You must be quite naive to believe that "suspicious transactions" of these chemicals were
not already monitored. After all Europe has a long and illustrious history of domestic terrorism. Nitroglycerine and perchlorates/sugar are a long
time favorite of wanna-be terrorists.
All in all this is not the serious blow to hobby-chemistry you are all insinuating. Actually it doesn't change a lot - this seems more like toothless
"look we're doing something against terrorism" legislation. You can expect significantly more serious restrictions to come and nobody will "rebel".
They are smart enough not to restrict access to the drugs of the masses (alcohol and TV).
[Edited on 4-1-2015 by turd]
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jock88
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Yes, there's nothing like a good night in. Stoned out of your mind on whiskey and having a good session at the front of your transvestite.
:      
Nitric acid is still available for washing milking machines. I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a few gallons and washing the local tax official.
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gardul
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I made that comment with more then just chemistry in mind.
You may think I am delusional, but people are more easily influenced then you think. Hope is every powerful.
a blanket Ideal that covers the true motives happens every day. people gobble it up like candy. Every time we watch politicians, watch the media,
read, listen to music.
I just made you read this very pointless signature. How does it feel?
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BJ68
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| Quote: Originally posted by turd |
Production / possession of above chemicals at too high concetrations are a minor infraction, comparable to a parking violation. A very
different situation from possessing Pred or I2 in the land of the free.
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Humph.... 500 Euros fine for the first time if you get caught? Your equipment will be sized and destroyed and you can be sure, that you will have a
nice file in some databases....
Further every piece of product (e.g. home made copper(II)nitrate) or laboratory book, where you have documented your syntheses can be used against
you....
And even parking violations can be troublesome, if you do it regularly...
Bj68
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turd
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So what?
Look what I found with some googling:
https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/Dokumente/BgblPdf/1997_53_1/1997_5...
Note the date: 1997. And look what it says:
| Quote: | | wenn die Tat nicht mit gerichtlicher Strafe bedroht ist, eine Verwaltungsübertretung und ist mit Geldstrafe von mindestens 5 000 S bis zu 200 000 S,
im Wiederholungsfall bis zu 400 000 S zu bestrafen. Der Versuch ist strafbar |
Now my German is not perfect, but this looks pretty similar to what you posted in your original post:
| Quote: |
wenn die Tat nicht mit gerichtlicher Strafe bedroht ist, eine Verwaltungsübertretung und ist mit Geldstrafe von mindestens 500 € bis zu 20 180€,
im Wiederholungsfall bis zu 40 375 € zubestrafen. Der Versuch ist strafbar.
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Translation: Lazy politicians had to comply with a random EU rule, found that they already had corresponding legislation, added a few chemicals to the
already existing huge list and went on with more important stuff.
You never had free access to chemicals. What you were doing was (borderline) illegal all the time. So what's up with the hysteria?
| Quote: | | Your equipment will be sized and destroyed and you can be sure, that you will have a nice file in some databases.... |
Even in the unlikely case of getting aught, you will have a clean criminal record. That's all that counts.
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gardul
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I think the hysteria comes from doing nothing "wrong" but can still wind up in prision. I always have had the feeling it isn't always about public
safty. In some cases it is about money, and in some cases it is about supressing education.
I just made you read this very pointless signature. How does it feel?
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The Volatile Chemist
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So wait... what's the fine for "A very different situation from possessing Pred or I2 in the land of the free."? I didn't know
that was illegal...? I don't have any of either, but still...
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turd
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I guess it varies from state to state, but for example (30 s of Google) http://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/45/9/45-9-107.htm :
| Quote: | | A person convicted of criminal possession of precursors to dangerous drugs shall be imprisoned in the state prison for a term not less than 2 years or
more than 20 years or be fined an amount not to exceed $50,000, or both. |
Edit: Also let's not forget this crazy story: http://www.examiner.com/article/uk-couple-face-extradition-w...
[Edited on 8-1-2015 by turd]
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franklyn
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State ' 0 ', the people ' 1 '
It's not just about guns or chemicals or any and all things that the self righteous believe they are empowered to
control.
www.huffingtonpost.com/evan-bernick/federal-judge-to-texas-n...
Government will expand to fill the known universe. Examples of this trend are prominent in European countries where the only ' growth ' is that of
government , which assimilates all productive means to support itself with ever more regulatory expansion. In order to ' make the world better '
control freaks are turning it into shit. Have no misunderstanding about it , this is a liberal disease and it's spread by liberalism.
.
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Metacelsus
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If the judge had told Texas to lift its ban on glassware, I'd be more happy.
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gardul
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| Quote: Originally posted by franklyn | It's not just about guns or chemicals or any and all things that the self righteous believe they are empowered to
control.
www.huffingtonpost.com/evan-bernick/federal-judge-to-texas-n...
Government will expand to fill the known universe. Examples of this trend are prominent in European countries where the only ' growth ' is that of
government , which assimilates all productive means to support itself with ever more regulatory expansion. In order to ' make the world better '
control freaks are turning it into shit. Have no misunderstanding about it , this is a liberal disease and it's spread by liberalism.
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franklyn, do not be so quick in blaming just liberals; The right said does it just as much. Every year I sit down and look at what has been passed. On
a spread sheet I mark whom voted in what. In reality it does not matter. politicians are the same. they speak on thing and turn a blind eye in hopes
the public forgets. It's the game of politics. Trust me they are, for the most part all the same.
I just made you read this very pointless signature. How does it feel?
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ahill
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I had a visit from some police yesterday afternoon. (Melbourne, Australia)
I wasn't actually home - I was at work - my partner let them in, and they had a poke around my home.
They said, (and this is second-hand via my partner), customs had notified them I had bought a flask. Apparently they were polite enough - not
especially forthcoming - and pretty quick - in and out in a few minutes. They did look thru most rooms - upstairs and down. Slightly weirdly, they
didn't check out the lab (in the garage) - or even ask if there was one or where the 'flask' was, or what I might be doing with it.
Didnt leave a card or say where they were from, or call me.
Its true - I have ordered lots of chemistry (and electronics) related odds and end off the internets over the last 6 odd months - the meat of it tho -
would be a rocking organic distillation kit, a 1litre buchner filter/flask/hand pump combo, and some crappy gas washing bottles. (btw - despite the
rockingness of the above kit, I _would not_ especially recommend the linked vendor)
I should prolly point out I'm an adult, am not making meth or jihad - don't hang around with bikers, and live in a fairly nice house in a kind of
mixed neighborhood.
Went to bed half expecting to be woken up by the door exploding in and getting dragged out of bed by masked armed men - but forgot to stay awake.
Maybe tomorrow night.
..so kind of unsettling and a bit weird - not totally unexpected tho.
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