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quicksilver
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This is a very old thread you guys have resurrected but the fulminating silver is the ammonia/silver nitrate combination that was a problem when
making mirrors back in the 1920's. .....Very simple to make and not as powerful as silver fulminate: a curiosity. It's tough to quantify but if silver
fulminate were 100; fulminating silver is a 40 in terms of over all strength. It's VoD, heat upon ignition, Tauzal level has not been examined but it
is VERY similar to lead styphnate. As long as you're keeping the weight at lower than .5gr the important thing is to wear goggles. It won't knock
fingers off at 1/2 gram level unless you're rubbing it within a tightly closed fist. In fact I believe that nitrogen triiodide is stronger. It's
within that class of materials. It has a very short shelf-life as I remember.
EDIT:
Cream of Tarter is Tartaric Acid as used in the above examples.
>>>Correction of nitrogen triiodide
[Edited on 12-7-2010 by quicksilver]
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Blasty
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In Sidney Gernsback's A thousand and one formulas, page 103, there's the following experiment that would fall under the "novelty" (i.e.
curious but basically useless) explosives/reactions category that is the subject of this thread:
"Explosion Without Heat -- Take a crystal or two of nitrate of copper and bruise them; then moisten them with water and roll them up in a piece of
tin-foil, and in a minute the foil will begin to smoke and soon after will take fire and explode. Unless the crystals of copper are moistened, no heat
will be produced."
[Edited on 12-7-2010 by Blasty]
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Melgar
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quicksilver - are you referring to nitrogen triiodide? That's a really easy one to make, provided you have elemental iodine. Just mix an excess of
aqueous ammonia with your elemental iodine and it'll form a black sludge at the bottom. This stuff is fairly safe when wet, but as soon as it dries
out, it's extremely sensitive. Once, I had a little bit dry out in a shot glass, so I poured some ammonia on it to get it wet again. Pouring the
ammonia didn't set it off, but I made the stupid mistake of trying to stir it up. Yep, the crystalized stuff at the bottom exploded, sending the
liquid part of the mixture right into my face.
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quicksilver
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Yes, I mis-spoke (typed). I was referring to nitrogen triiodide. Fulminating silver was accidentally made in mirror production because of the exposure
of ammonia. Just as quickly & easily as you can produce nitrogen triiodide, so fulminating silver can be so mfg. But if the weight level was not
significant, it would just pop with a loud displeasing ease.
I'm fairly sure it would fuck up the mirror also.
[Edited on 12-7-2010 by quicksilver]
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Hoveland
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I have read of an explosive double salt of potassium chlorate and thiosulphate, but now cannot find any information on it. Does anyone have a link?
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The WiZard is In
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Quote: Originally posted by Axt  | Another "fulminating bismuth", this is from Fortunes in Formulas by Hiscox & Sloane in the section on "fulminates" originally printed in 1907.
<i><b>Fulminating Bismuth</b> - Take bismuth, 120 parts; carbureted cream of tartar, 60 parts; niter, 1 part.</i>
Not sure whats meant to be going on there, niter is KNO3 and cream of tartar is potassium bitartrate. But what is "carbureted cream of tartar"?
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A cyclopaedia of six thousand practical receipts, and collateral information ...
By Arnold James Cooley 1854
II. Triturate together, very carefully, 100 parts of antimony, 75
parts of carbureted (roasted to blackness) cream of tartar, and 12
parts of lampblack : preserve it in vials. (Ann. de Chim., Oct.
1822.)
Remarks. When the above processes are properly conducted, the
resulting powders fulminate violently on contact with water. It is
to the presence of the very inflammable metal potassium that
they owe this property. Another compound, made with 60 parts of
carbureted cream of tartar, 120 bismuth, and 1 of nitre, treated
as above, contains an alloy very rich in potassium. A piece the
size of a pea introduced into a mass of gunpowder explodes it on
being thrown into water. Use. For making some kind of fireworks.
It is very probable that this is the preparation used by Capt
Warner.
The London encyclopaedia: or, Universal dictionary of science ..., Volume 18 1829
edited by Thomas Curtis
A fulminating antimonic powder has been prepared by M. Serullas
in the following manner :—Grind carefully together 100 parts of
tartar emetic and three parts of lamp-black, or ordinary charcoal
powder. Crucibles capable of holding about three ounces of water,
to be only three-fourths filled, are to be ground smooth on their
edges, and rubbed inside with powdered charcoal, so as to dust
lightly their surface, and prevent the subsequent adherence of the
carbonaceous cone which remains after the calcination. The
above mixture, being introduced into the crucible, is to be covered
with a layer of powdered charcoal; and the joinings of the cover
must be luted. After exposure for three hours to a good heat in a
reverberatory furnace, the crucible must be removed, and left to
cool for six or seven hours. This interval of time is necessary to
allow the air, which always penetrates a little way into the
crucibles, to burn the exterior coat of the fulminating mass;
otherwise, if it be taken out too recently, there is always an
explosion. We must then hastily enclose it, without breaking, into
a glass with a wide opening. After some time, it spontaneously
breaks down into fragments of different sizes, retaining all its
properties for years. When the calcination has been conducted as
above, the product is excessively fulminating, so that, without the
least compression, it gives rise to a violent detonation on contact
with water. 100 parts of antimony, severity-five of carbureted
cream of tartar, and twelve of lamp black, triturated together,
form also an excellent mixture. A piece of the size of a pea of this
fulminating compound introduced into a mass of gunpowder
explodes it when thrown into water. It is to the presence of
potassium that the above explosive property is due. Sixty parts of
carbureted cream of tartar, 120 of bismuth, and one of nitre,
treated as above, yield an alloy very rich irf potassium, of which
the smallest portion cut with scissors sparkles. When bruised it
melts and burns.—An. de. Chim. Oct. 1822.
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franklyn
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Sodium Hyponitrite
http://jupiter.chem.uoa.gr/pchem/lab/pubs/XX_24A(1959)147.pdf
An antique thread on this here _
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=147#pi...
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franklyn
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Exploding Antimony
http://antimonyproperties.blogspot.com/2009/03/yellow-antimo...
Ttwo unstable allotropic forms of antimony are yellow and explosive.
Much like its arsenic and phosphorus analogs, yellow antimony exhibits mostly nonmetal properties. The oxidization, either by air or oxygen, of liquid
antimony hydride produces yellow antimony and black antimony. Yellow antimony is only stable below -90° C. At temperatures between -90° C and -50°
C, the yellow allotrope will degrade into its black counterpart. At temperatures above -50° C, yellow antimony rapidly converts into regular metallic
antimony.
Explosive antimony is produced by the electrolysis of the aqueous solution of antimony halide. It is believed that this is because of the presence
high concentrations of antimony ions in the solution. Explosive antimony deposits on the cathode at a current density of 200 A/m2 in a hydrochloric
acid solution containing 17 - 33% SbCl3. Explosive antimony has a steel-gray color and a smooth, soft surface. Its density is 5.64 -5.97 g/cm3. It
will produce a vigorous explosion when it is gently struck, rubbed, treated with thermal radiation, or heated to 125° C. The explosion is the result
of instant liberation of crystalline heat when a foreign force is applied and will occur even under water.
Attachment: Antimony - Dictionary of Applied Chemistry I A-C , pg 360 .pdf (375kB)
This file has been downloaded 721 times
Exploding Bismuth this thread
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=5112#p...
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quicksilver
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I don't want to go too far off topic but where I live there is a great deal of arsenic naturally occurring near two mines. It is very beautiful stuff.
If not for it's toxicity I would pile it up a great deal of it and sell if off. Many elements can be gathered if you know where to look.
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Hydrazinium
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Would, for example, nitrosyl fulminate (NOONC) count as a novelty (and probably highly unstable) explosive?
I would assume that a simple synthesis would consist of a very small quantity of saturate silver fulminate solution through which a steady stream of
nitrosyl chloride could be passed. The reaction would precipitate AgCl. Hopefully the product would not be destroyed by the solvent, so something as
passive as possible should be used.
I would also advise that anyone who tried it keep temperatures just above freezing as no information seems to be available on it.
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The WiZard is In
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God grant that mortal men may no be so ingenious at their own cost, as to pervert a profitable science any longer to such horrible uses
I send you two small phials of nitrated sulphuret of potash, or
yellow powder, as it is usually called in this country....I have made
some hundred pounds of it, which were eagerly bough up by
hunters and sportsman for priming fire arms, a purpose
which it answered most admirably; and, but for the happy
introduction of powder for priming, which is ignited by percussion,
it would long since have gone into extensive use.
With this preparation I have had much to do, and I doubt whether,
in the whole circle of experimental philosophy, many cases can be
ound involving dangers more difficult to be overcome, than
melting fulminating powder and saving the product, and reducing
he process to a business operation. I have had with it some eight
or the tremendous explosions, and in one of them I received, full in
my face and eyes, the flame of a quarter of a pound of the
omposition, just as it had become thoroughly melted.
I shall but just mention a fatal event which lately happen'd in
Germany, from an experiment made with balsam of sulphur
terebinthinated, and confined in a close chemical vessel, and thus
exploded by fire; God grant that mortal men may no be
so ingenious at their own cost, as to pervert a profitable science
any longer to such horrible uses. For this reason I forbear to
mention several other matters far more horrible and destructive,
than any of those rehearsed.
Benjamin Silliman, 1831. In Tenney Davis, The Chemistry of Powder &
Explosives. p. 30-32
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver | | I don't want to go too far off topic but where I live there is a great deal of arsenic naturally occurring near two mines. It is very beautiful stuff.
If not for it's toxicity I would pile it up a great deal of it and sell if off. Many elements can be gathered if you know where to look.
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Realgar occurs in rose-red, orange-red, or orange-yellow prismatic crystals ; in coarse or fine granule, in compact masses or as an incrustation.
Strabo, in the first century of our era, in his Geographia (12, iii, 40), said that there sandarach mines at Pompeiopolis, in Paphlagonia ; and added
:
The mountain is hollowed out by large trenches made by workmen in the process of mining. The work is always carried on at the public charge, and
slaves were employed in the mine who had been sold on account of their crimes. Besides the great labour of the employment, the air is said to be
destructive of life, and scarcely endurable in consequence of the strong odour issuing from the masses of mineral : hence tile slaves are short lived.
The mining is frequently suspended from its becoming, unprofitable, for great expense is incurred by the employment, of more than two hundred workmen,
whose number is con¬tinually diminishing by disease and fatal accidents.
JW Mellor
A Comprehensive Treatise on Inorganic and Theoretical Chemistry
9:267-8
Asthana —
NC Asthana & A Nirmal
The Ultimate Book of Explosives and IED's
2008
Brock —
A St H Brock
A History of Fireworks
1949
For the fireworks fiends - trivia — What was Alan Saint Hill
Brock's occupation?
 
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by The_Davster | Carburetted hydrogen is methane, and heavy carburetted hydrogen is ethane. perhaps it is some sort of coprecipitated potassium carbonate tartrate or
coprecipitated potassium acetate tartrate?
Or perhaps even some sort of potassium methyl or ethyl tartrate?
Damn archaic nomenclature.... |
I did-id this some time ago when I had spare time upon my
hands. As always - corrections/additions welcome. U2U works
for me.
Attachment: Chem Chemold.doc (126kB)
This file has been downloaded 2433 times
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver | | This is a very old thread you guys have resurrected but the fulminating silver is the ammonia/silver nitrate combination that was a problem when
making mirrors back in the 1920's. ..... |
Fair use ... or “The Morality of Convenience” (If it’s convenient ... it’s moral!)
From: Mirrors: A Guide to Manufacture of Mirrors and Reflecting Surfaces
Dr. Bruno Schweig
Pelham Books - London 1973
Danger of Explosions
Unexpected explosions have frequently occurred in silvering shops, to the surprise of the
operators and their employers. The people concerned were rarely in a position to account
for the cause. The present author was repeatedly asked in court cases to explain what
happened, and why. On one occasion an experienced silverer received severe eye
injuries, on another the silvering equipment was destroyed by a night-time explosion, and
on a third a schoolboy lost the sight of one eye when he to make a mirror for his physics
teacher. In all these cases fulminating silver was formed.
Fulminating Silver and its formation was first detected and named after the French chemist
Count Claude Berthollet in about 1770. Crell describes Berthollet's experience in 1788 in
Annalen, der Chemie Pharmacie 2, p. 390. F. Raschig, in Liebig's Ann., 1886 (233), p. 93 e
a full study of it. Dr. W. Friedel in Centralzeitungfor Optik und hanik, March 20th, 1928,
published a good report on the dangers xplosions when silvering, and concluded that the
danger of formation of fulminating silver only exists if concentrated solutions of silver nitrate
and ammonia come together, and that the probability that fulminating silver precipitates is
greatly enhanced by the presence of strong sodium or potassium hydroxide solutions.
These observations tally to a great extent with those of the present author. As far as his
experiences go, over a period of thirty-five years, there was never an explosion from
fulminating silver when silver nitrate and ammonia alone were mixed, independent of their
strength. He has, however, read that such explosions occurred when the mixture was
heated on a water bath.
But fulminating silver was formed and explosions took place when strong alkali
hydroxides were present, or when the solution became concentrated through evaporation.
A similar conclusion was reached by the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. of U.S.A. in 1955, i.e.
that:
(1) Explosions are not produced by adding concentrated ammonium hydroxide (ammonia)
to solid silver nitrate.
(2) Addition of sodium or potassium hydroxide to the silver-ammonia complex definitely
increases the tendency to form explosive material. The action of the alkali hydroxides is not
quite clear, but may be explained by their tendency to displace ammonia.
(3) A very high alkalinity of pH 15 appears to favour formation of explosive. The pH of
usual silvering solutions is about 13-4. The dangerous pH region starts at about 14-5.
(4) Although the concentrated silver-ammonia complex appears not to form fulminating
silver, it is recommended to dissolve silver nitrate in water before adding ammonia.
(5) Therefore, silvering solutions should not be stored, and under no circumstances over
longer periods such as weekends.
Dr. Eduard Lohmann had already expressed the same opinion in 1931, in the Journal
Diamant, No. 33. And the British Ministry of Labour Factory Department is even more
cautious. It postulates that the silver ammonia solution must not contain more than 6%
silver nitrate.
Fulminating silver is a black precipitate. It consists mainly of silver nitride (Ag3N) and
silver imide (Ag2NH) and possibly also of silver amide (AgNH2). It is often mixed with
metallic silver. When left alone for a few months, it tends to lose its nitrogen component
and to change completely into harmless silver powder. Fulminating silver can be regarded
as an ammonia whose hydrogen is wholly or partially replaced by silver. It is not silver
azide (AgN3) a white precipitate which is also explosive; it forms under different
circumstances to this.
The danger of bringing these exploisves substances to a weighing machine makes their
analysis difficult. According to Dr. W. Friedel, Centralzeitung fur Optik und Mechanik,
Berlin, March 3rd, 1928, the formation of fulminating silver from silver nitrate and ammonia
may take place in this fashion, as earlier formulated by F. Raschig in 1886 (Liebigs
Annalen, 233, p. 93).
3 Ag(NH3)2-NO3 = Ag3N + 3NH4NO3 + 2NH3
Silver Ammonia Silver Ammonium Ammonia
Nitrate Nitride Nitrate
and
2 Ag(NH3)2-NO3 = Ag2NH + 2NH4-NO3 + NH3
Silver Ammonia Silver Ammonium Ammonia
Nitrate Imide Nitrate
and
Ag(NH3)2-NO3 = AgNH2 + NH4-NO3
Silver Ammonia Silver Ammonium
Nitrate Amide Nitrate
To conclude, it may be pointed out once more that diluted solutions of silver nitrate with
ammonia and alkali hydroxides are harmless, but they must not be allowed to become
concentrated. They no longer present a danger when the reducer is added and the silver is
precipitated as a mirror or as silver powder.
The black precipitate of fulminating silver must not be confused with the harmless
dark-brown-to-black silver oxide [Ag2O] which forms when insufficient ammonia is added to
the silver nitrate solution.
If, however, any suspicion of the presence of fulminating silver is aroused, extreme
caution is imperative. Under no circumstances must the vessel be moved or shaken.
Fulminating silver, whether dry or wet, explodes at the slightest touch.
In order to eliminate the danger, diluted hydrochloric acid should be added until the
solution becomes acidic, and the fulminating silver is converted into silver chloride. The
operator should approach the suspected vessel behind a screen of thick glass, protect his
eyes and hands, and add the acid carefully. It is better to destroy and discard the ful-
minating silver than to run an often underestimated risk.
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AndersHoveland
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There is also diazomethane, which is more commonly thought of as a precursor in organic chemistry. It is a very toxic, extremely unstable, dangerously
sensitive explosive gas.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2273
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killswitch
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No amateur will ever synthesize that in its pure form, even if purification is possible via practical methods.
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Lithium
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what about potassium nitrosocarbamate ,NONKCOOK.
here is the only reference i can find is this, and it is on this thread:
quote:
Potassium Nitrosocarbaminate
Author: Lagen
Procedure: Place 38 ml of methanol in a 100 ml beaker. Add 10 g of dry potassium hydroxide, in several small portions and with stirring. Wait for each
portion to dissolve, then let the solution cool down. Pour off some of the resulting solution in another container, keep approx. 30 ml of solution in
the beaker. Place the beaker in a salted ice bath. In another container liquefy 1g of nitrosourethane with a few drops of methanol and add 4 ml
distilled water. Add the solution in one portion into the potassium hydroxide solution and let it react for 10 minutes. If nothing precipitates, add 5
ml of the spare potassium hydroxide solution and wait for another 10 minutes, then add the remainder of the KOH solution. Let the mixture stand for
one hour, keep replacing the ice bath if it melts. Quickly vacuum filter the precipitate, wash several times with absolute alcohol and place
immediately in a desiccator. Try to avoid unnecessary contact of the product with moist air. Yield: approx. 1 g of a pale yellow powder.
Properties: Potassium nitrosocarbaminate - NONKCOOK. Very sensitive. Detonates violently, even in small amounts, on contact with water or sulfuric
acid. May detonate at slightly elevated temperatures (below 100°C). Decomposes in the presence of moisture. It can be temporarily rendered
nonexplosive by the addition of ether followed by addition of alcohol. When treated in this way it can be decomposed safely by water or H2SO4.
google gets 2 results!
Li
[Edited on 8-4-2012 by Lithium]
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AndersHoveland
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2-Iodoxybenzoic acid can be prepared by the slow addition, over a half hour, of potassium bromate (76.0 g, 0.45 mol) to a vigorously stirred sulfuric
acid mixture (0.73 M, 730 mL) containing 2-iodobenzoic acid (85.2 g, 0.34 mol).
While 2-Iodoxybenzoic acid is usually used as a regent to selectively oxidize alcohols to aldehydes in organic chemistry, the substance is also an
explosive.
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Adas
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What about PETN derivate, but with just -NO2 groups?
It can probably be easily made by reacting NaCH2NO2 (sodium nitronate) and CCl4.
Rest In Pieces!
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AndersHoveland
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So why exactly did you post this idea here?
For better organisation, you could have posted in one of these threads:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14003
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=18920 (not sure why this thread is not in the "Energetic Materials" section)
| Quote: Originally posted by Adas | What about PETN derivate, but with just -NO2 groups?
It can probably be easily made by reacting NaCH2NO2 (sodium nitronate) and CCl4. |
You may be on to a good idea. But certain things need to be considered. First, the sodium salt is only chemically stable in the absence of
water, in pure ethanol for example. It can be made by reacting solid NaOH with nitromethane in ethanol. But the compound irreversibly hydrolyses
in water, which is indicated by the solution turning a redish-brown color. (you might see this thread for more information about the reaction: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1089 ) Second, chlorine does not substitute readily off of carbon atoms under normal
conditions. More realistically one would need CBr4 or CI4. This forum also has a good thread on the preparation of iodoform, CHI3.
The compound you are describing, C(CH2NO2)4, would no doubt be very insensitive, like nitromethane. Nitromethane is actually a fairly energetic
explosive, and one of the main reasons for its relatively low detonation velocity is its low density. C(CH2NO2)4 would have the advantage of having a
higher density, because of larger molecular size.
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PHILOU Zrealone
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CCl4, CBr4 or CI4 are not good candidates for such reactions because it is apolar and all Cl atoms are equivalent...
Much better would be the use of activated halogens... like in dangerous chloropicrin, bromopicrin or iodopicrin...
CCl3-NO2 -(NaO)(O)N=CH2-> O2N-CH2-CCl2-NO2 + CH2=N(O)-O-CCl2-NO2 + NaCl
You obviously see that sodium nitronate might give C bonding or O bonding but the question is in what proportion?
Once a first linkage is done...the remaining halogen atoms are even more activated by the electron withdrawing effect of the NO2 and CH2-NO2 groups
and so further substitution might occure faster...
The final step should (amongst other reaction products) give the putative O2N-C(-CH2-NO2)3 (Tetranitroisobutane) which should be denser than
Tetranitropentaerythritol C(CH2-NO2)4 and display more power owing to a better OB and higher density.
From comparative studies between molecular families I have done: Like it is the case for other related Carbon skeleton molecules
Tetranitropentaerythritol (thus the nitrocarbon and not the nitrate ester!) must display higher density than 1,2,3-trinitropropane but a lower one
than tetranitroisobutane.
So d(X-C(CH2X)3) > d(C(CH2X)4) > d(XCH2-CHX-CH2X)
[Edited on 25-5-2012 by PHILOU Zrealone]
[Edited on 25-5-2012 by PHILOU Zrealone]
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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AndersHoveland
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Unfortunately, such a compound would have thermal stability problems, since it has nitro groups on adjacent carbon atoms
(vicinal).
see the eleventh post down in this thread, with the section "Geminal Nitro Groups":
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=17012
| Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland |
Although such compounds still tend not to be very sensitive to initiation, there exists the problem of thermal stability, where there is slow
decomposition in storage under warm conditions, or rapid degredation if the explosive becomes subjected to the heat from flames outside the metal
casing.
The examples of stable gem-nitro molecules seem to have one thing in common. In all cases, elimination of HNO2 and resultant formation of an
unsaturated C=C bond, is not possible. In other words, the molecules lack an (R)2CHC(NO2)2CH(R)2 segment, or if such a segment does exist, the
carbon-carbon bonds are under a high degree of strain. ...
Dinitropropanes that do not have a hydrogen atom on the same carbon as the dinitro group require a higher temperature for thermal decomposition than
those that have such a hydrogen. P. S. DeCarli, D.S. Ross, Robert Shaw, E. L. Lee, H. D.Stromberg. For example, the solid compound
2,2-dinitro propane is thermally unstable when warmed. At 75degC, it partially decomposes, losing two thirds of its weight after two days. There are,
however, several conditions under which gem-dinitro compounds can be thermally stable. ...
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[Edited on 26-5-2012 by AndersHoveland]
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