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Mongo Blongo
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What do you mean when you say the HNO3 precipitates ?? It just reacts with the water (nothing ppts). It is not an easy method by the way. I have tried
it with disappointing results. There is more info in the E&W forum. 10fingers describes his experiences with this method and how to get a higher
concentration using water vapor.
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a123x
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h
I had meant it as the NO2 and water vapor combine and the cooling causes the nitic acid to become liquid from the gaseous state hat it is in. Like
precipitation when tlking about the weather is water vapor in the air becomes liquid or solid and falls.
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menchaca
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i dont know what i did when i was child or how i did it but this is what happened to me:
i took a large bottle and i added quantity of ammonia and a large quantity of comercial H2O2(3%) suddenly it´s colour turned red and white fumes
appeard in the mouth of the bottle. Could that generate nitric acid? i dont know what to to think because nitric acid isnt easy to obtain oxidying
ammnia but this was what happened to me and.........
well that´s all, i hope somebody can help me
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PHILOU Zrealone
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NH3 + O2 may form NOx but usually you need a catalyst!
Maybe there was some unknown catalyst in your ammonia solution or in your H2O2 solution!
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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osamafon
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can I make 95% hno3 +NH4HSO4 with NH4NO3 and H2SO4 ? if it is posible ,is it good for RDX or PETN?
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johnybmb
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You could try to centrifuge the mix and decant most of the nitric acid , as the calcium sulfate would not, for a short time , float on the dense
nitric acid.
<b><u><s>The one\'n\'only </s></u></b>
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PHILOU Zrealone
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"can I make 95% hno3 +NH4HSO4 with NH4NO3 and H2SO4 ? if it is posible ,is it good for RDX or PETN?"
Yes if your H2SO4 is 95%!
RDX needs H2SO4 free HNO3 or a minimum since H2SO4 destroys fast RDX!
PETN procedures don't use H2SO4 but rather use HNO3 conc in excess, HNO3/P2O5 or HNO3/Ac2O; so I guess there should be a problem with H2SO4!
Better separate HNO3 from H2SO4 and NH4HSO4...Use less than stoechiometric amount H2SO4 to keep a slight excess of NH4NO3; cool down the mix and
filtrate the NH4HSO4 cristalls!The excess NH4NO3 will help precipitation/ristallisation of NH4HSO4!
     
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Cappy
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Apparently HNO3 can be dehydrated to greater than 68% concentration by hydrating Mg(NO3)2. "For ease in handling the material it is highly
desireable that the magnesium nitrate be in liquid form." This means dissolving it in water, since it melts at too high a temperature. Since
water is added too the HNO3, dehydration is less effective.
Would adding Mg to HNO3 work? Sure it would use up some of the acid, but Mg is sometimes easier to find than Mg(NO3)2.
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PHILOU Zrealone
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It is a good idea, but most of the people scream for Mg and would consider this as a crime
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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AngelEyes
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Seems to me the best way to dehydrate HNO3, if you're going to do it by adding a dehydrated salt, would be to use CuSO4. You know when it's
anhydrous 'cos it goes white, you know when it's absorbed the water 'cos it goes blue, it's cheap and (should be) readily
available and it won't react with the Nitric acid either.
I think that's all correct - unless anyone knows different? I haven't actually tried it myself though...
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dynamite
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???
is the reaction with 2 nh4no3 +h2so4 so hno3+nh4hso4+nh4no3. ??? if is how can I do it so that 2hno3 forms , with a cons. acids(96% h2so4)
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PHILOU Zrealone
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2NH4NO3 +H2SO4 --> HNO3+NH4HSO4+NH4NO3
Is what you wrote!
Then simplifiying NH4NO3 in the two parts of the equation, you end up with:
NH4NO3 +H2SO4 --> HNO3+NH4HSO4
So simply add equimolar amounts of H2SO4 and NH4NO3 to get molar amount of HNO3!
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Cappy
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Could you produce nitrogen dioxide by heating air with a lightbulb? It would then be dissolved into water to form nitric acid. How long do you think
the tungsten would last in air, and would it contaminate/catalyse the reaction at all?
The air would be pumped in somehow (which would explain why the water is not travelling up the glass tubes).
[Edited on 4/15/2003 by Cappy]
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trinitrotoluene
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I heard there was some way to produce HNO3 from ammonia. 2 NH3+ O2= 2HNO3 or do you need some sort of cataylist?
TNT
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Madog
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cappy, i dont think that would work, at least not well, electrolisis of air is how to do it. and add some pure oxygen to try to get it to a good mix
of N2 and O2.
edit: oh yeah, also, the tungsten is not going to last long in air at all. it will oxidise as soon as you put current through it.
i might electrlisis some air just for the hell of it, i got a transformer that can do the job.
[Edited on 4/15/03 by Madog]
Most people outgrow their pyro tendencies, we are the ones who\'s tendencies outgrew us.
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Cappy
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Is there a minimum voltage or current needed to electrolyse air? Also, should the electrodes be very close, or as far apart as possible while still
allowing a visible spark? Is DC required or will AC work? I believe AC would work if just heating was required.
[Edited on 4/16/2003 by Cappy]
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madscientist
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The purpose of the electric arc isn't really to electrolyze air - it's to create temperatures so extreme that the triple bond in nitrogen
molecules breaks, allowing nitric oxide to form (which is then oxidized to nitrogen dioxide). That in mind, I would go with the longest arc possible,
highest voltage, and alternating current.
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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a123x
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I just had a thought. Since nitric acid forms an azeotrope with water at 68% and this azeotrope boils at 20C higher than water boils at then nitric
acid of concentrations below 68% ca be concentrated to 68% by simply boiling off water right? This makes me think the Ca(NO3)2 + H2SO4 method could
actually be quite good if the nitrate was dissolved in water then the H2SO4 added. All the water would inrease the volume quite a bit making
decantation quite easy. Then the acid could at least be concentrated to 68% which is good for most nitrations and should be better than H2SO4 + KNO3
for those nitrations.
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a123x
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I had an even better idea. A fiberglass cloth filter is plenty good enough to stand up to acids and if the strands are bunched together by hand then
it is tight enough to prevent even quite fine particles to pass through it. The problems becomes that the CaSO4 takes up quite a bit of volume so that
there may not even be any free flowing liquid. I have thought of a way to solve this problem. Take a strip of fiberglass filter, fold it over, take
some fiberglass epoxy and put it into the sides of the folded strip so that whe dried it forms a pouch type thing with only one end open. This allows
you to take the CaSO4 + nitric acid mixture and pour it into this pouch, then use some type of plastic roller made from something like HDPE which has
pretty decent resistance to nitric and roll the pouch with it from the open end down to effectively squeeze out the acid.
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Madog
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cool, you could just smash open the wall and pull the pink stuff out and use this in vacume filtration.
[Edited on 4/30/03 by Madog]
Most people outgrow their pyro tendencies, we are the ones who\'s tendencies outgrew us.
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Haggis
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Attics are the best source for the stuff. There is a whole lot just hanging on the walls and floor. Some houses use spray type insulation and
I'm not sure that this would work because it feels completely different from the pink stuff. They consistency is not uniform with the thickness
or concentration of the material. The pink stuff would be the best choice, if it does indeed work. If you cannot get it from your own attic, go to a
construction site where they are building a house. I work construction and there is always 'pink stuff' lying around. The best times are
when they first put the wall frames up. There is usually a layer between the top of the basement and the bottom of the floor. The second best time
is when it is starting to look like a house. The walls have plywood and the roof is complete, before they put on siding however. It is layed between
exterior wall studs. They usually don't insulate between interior rooms however. This is some itchy stuff, so wear long sleeves and some type
of glove. Just ask the guys for some insulation scraps. I find the brand with the "Pink Panther" on the roll to be the highest quality.
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leopard
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I make my Nitric Acid using H2SO4 + KNO3 (equal proportions by weight) but my yield seems very low. In Rudolph Wagner's "Handbook of
Chemical Technology 1872" he states that typical values for materials are 30kg KNO3 and 29kg H2SO4 then goes on to state that typical yield is
125kg Nitric Acid for 100kg KNO3 !!! Molecular weight of KNO3 is (101) while for HNO3 is (63). I'm no chemist but the math doesn't seem to
add up. If the K (39.1) is taken away and replaced with H (1.0) how does the final weight of HNO3 exceed the starting weight of KNO3 ? Am I missing
something obvious? By the way I also have good success making HNO3 using 2 neon transformers each creating a 1.5cm arc inside seperate jars. A pump
forces air into the first jar then into the second jar then bubled into water.
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Marvin
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The reasoning is right, but you didnt read the section all the way through. The process described condenses the nitric acid into water, producing an
acid of concentration 36 degrees Baum.
This is around 50% nitric acid. The additonal discrepancy from the numbers comes from the use of sodium nitrate, not potassium nitrate to make the
acid.
Watch out for NO2, its very toxic, avoid breathing it in at all costs, at low concentrations it will cause lung damage while you dont even notice it.
If I sound overly repetative on this point, its becuase NO2 bit me back.
Reedited after working some things out.
[Edited on 10-5-2003 by Marvin]
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Theoretic
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HNO3
I heard that a mixture of N2, O2 and Cl2 forms NOCl (nitrosyl chloride) on heating to 400C. You could then use sunlight to decompose NOCl to NO and
Cl2 (chlorine functions as a catalyst for fixing nitrogen).On air NO is oxidized to NO2, which could be liquefied and separated from chlorine, that
could then be reused.
Nitrogen and oxygen from air would do just fine.
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a123x
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That would be way more trouble to do than it is worth. For one thing you're working with Cl2, then you have to liquify NO2 to get it out of the
system. It seems it would be significantly easier just to run a neon sign transformer in a container with air being slowly pumped in one side.
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