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Texium
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Yes, or to take it to the next level, all amateur chemists convene and create one giant lab and call it a business, and then we carry on doing
everything we normally do, and call it research.
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WGTR
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OK, how about using cations other than sodium and potassium? That may not work for all applications, but may provide a way to avoid infringing on
the law. I'm thinking cations like lithium, magnesium, calcium, strontium, barium, etc. If you can't keep pure potassium or sodium chlorate, then
perhaps one of the other salts will work for a given application. Same thing with nitrates (although those seem to be merely watched, not banned).
I'm not clear on whether water would be a legal diluent, but if your chlorate cell is running less than 40% concentration by weight, then technically
it seems like it would be legal.
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DJF90
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You have to apply for a license via the home office:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/licensing-for-hom...
As far as your order is concerned, 12% is the concentration threshold for hydrogen peroxide, so it should not need a license.
[Edited on 3-9-2014 by DJF90]
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Fantasma4500
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please dont look too much forward to it.. as in to vote, whatever parties you have in scotland they are nothing but controlled opposition to one and
each other
i dont think you will find a political party willing to make chemicals accessible to the public just like that, it will just keep getting worse and
worse, more laws, not less..
government seeks to control, why would they control less when they can control more?
already the idea of victimless crime is just unimaginably unacceptable to exist as a rule.. ok i see the preventive idea in it, but.. is the future
where we need permission to cut a piece of bread using an obviously very dangerous sharp metal weapon that far away??
keep voting, but if you ask me then i suggest that you cant fix government with government, at least try not to expect too much from writing your name
on a piece of paper
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The Volatile Chemist
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If it weren't so sad a situation, I'd say it'd be a good way to make money.
Glad I live in America!.... heh, heh, wait...
I agree with those who said we should just be careful and continue going on as we have been. From what I've heard from some Irish, you can't even get
radiator fluid in car stores, but that's just hear-say.
I hope this all works out, but until it directly applies to me, I don't feel much ability to do anything. Does anyone know if this applies to Germany?
I was sorta hoping to move there as an adult and start a chemical company...
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woelen
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The new regulations certainly have effects. The seller APC Pure indeed stopped selling HNO3, H2O2, H2SO4 and other annex I and annex II chemicals.
Their listings are removed from eBay. Other sellers in the UK who sell HNO3 also removed (or were forced to remove?) their listings.
In the Netherlands, the well-known seller Hinmeijer also does not sell any HNO3, KClO3, KClO4, H2O2 (>12%) to individuals anymore. They put an
explicit remark in red on the webpage for these chemicals. E.g. for nitric acid:
http://www.hinmeijer.nl/product/65294/Salpeterzuur_div_conce...
So, it looks as if this is serious and the more respectable sellers indeed stop selling these chemicals to individuals.
Remarkably, of the perchlorates only NaClO4 and KClO4 are unavailable. Perchloric acid, barium perchlorate, and magnesium perchlorate still are sold
to individuals. These are not on the Annex I list.
Annex II chemicals still are sold and no mention is made of any paperwork, needed for these. E.g. for sulphuric acid:
http://www.hinmeijer.nl/product/66822/Zwavelzuur_div_concent...
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The Volatile Chemist
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Interesting, woelen, I forgot the consequences of sellers abroad. Do you think those who sell annexed chemicals online will be looked into? (In/by
European countries [sorry, I know very little about Europe])
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WGTR
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Looking at the link that was provided for the legislation, it seems a little short on detail. Is that all there is?
I can't say whether this is legal or not, but an obvious loophole that I could see would be if there was a mixture of 40% sodium perchlorate, 40%
potassium perchlorate, and 20% of something else, perhaps a more expensive perchlorate salt. Even with just 40% each of both the potassium and sodium
salts, that would add up to 80%. Someone's bound to discover this, and start selling it that way.
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woelen
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It is easy to make a solution which contains slightly less than 40% of NaClO4 by weight (NaClO4 is very soluble). The same is true for NaClO3. Such
solutions still are far from saturated, so no solid material crystallizes from these solutions when stored at room temperature.
With these you can make KClO4/KClO3 easily. I can imagine that in due time such solutions appear on certain websites and that a bag of KCl is supplied
together with the solution to easily make KClO4/KClO3.
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jock88
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Perhaps steel pin dust + perchlorate?
This would be easily separated with a magnet.
QED
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Fantasma4500
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i still stick to sand and chlorate/perchlorate
you can just boil the thing and decant 
im thinking steel pin may be seen as a surely great step towards an IED, lmao.
i can just imagine the news showing video of some russian pouring aluminium powder over it, giving it a shake and then sticking in a fuse and then the
results of that, otherwise quite interesting idea...
perhaps there should be looked abit into iron dust, it wouldnt have same POTENTIAL IED use, and also which is noteworthy has a nice density so it
wouldn fuck up shipping costs too much as they take % as being per weight
i just wonder what it would be sold as... skin lotion?? supposing you got to have some sort of product to sell it
anyhow reading that APCpure got in trouble is really really sad.. such an honest business.. goddamnit sad
spoke to owner of a pyro supplier which just had ClO3 and ClO4's removed and he confirmed that they have already gotten hold of samples of Pb (PbO2?),
MMO and titanium anodes
could be quite cheeky to order a package with 5kg KCl, a 40A power supply and some titanium/MMO electrodes.. but ohwell.. loopholes are there to be
exploited anyhow
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aga
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Energy is the real threat.
Best remove all of it to be Safe.
When is the '0 Kelvin Safety Act' being discussed ?
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WGTR
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I like woelen's idea simply because the associated materials could be very high-purity. At the same time, dry solids are usually
easier to ship than liquids, especially if said liquid is a strong oxidizer. The seller would also have to be careful with liquid solutions like
this, because inadvertent evaporation could concentrate it past the legal limit.
Antiswat's concept is appealing because it is a simple dry mixture. The sand should be pretty clean, but this might not be a problem
for most situations. In the back of my mind, though, sand is such an inert material that it's almost too easy to separate the salt from it, and the
sand is not intended to be used for anything. This might get a seller into trouble, or invite unwelcome attention from the authorities.
How about if the advantages of both ideas are combined? Dry sodium perchlorate mixed with excess dry KCl, and shipped this way, for example. It
would have the advantage of being a dry mixture, and the materials could have very high purity as shipped. The idea is to raise the bar of difficulty
just a bit in order to filter out most of the crazies, while not hampering most of those with a legitimate interest in chemistry.
Or, of course, you can just make your own electrochemically...
Edit: Ammonium perchlorate is not on the list...which is somewhat interesting.
[Edited on 9-4-2014 by WGTR]
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woelen
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IIRC ammonium perchlorater already is covered by other regulations. E.g. Hinmeijer has no ammonium perchlorate on his list of chemicals and the same
is true for another well-known seller in the Netherlands (Labstuff). They both have perchlorates on their list, but no ammonium perchlorate. Both,
however, have HClO4 and that can be used as a basis for other perchlorate salts. However, the price for perchloric acid is quite high, it is not a
cheap chemical! I think that this is the reason why perchloric acid, magnesium perchlorate, barium perchlorate, copper perchlorate and maybe some
other metal perchlorates are not on Annex I, simply because they are so expensive that terrorist abuse of these chemicals hardly is possible. You need
multiple kilograms for a serious bomb and making the ingredients from e.g. HClO4 would be VERY expensive and it also would be VERY suspicious if a
customer tries to buy 25 liters of HClO4. Normally that is sold per half a liter, or 250 ml. For home chemistry, however, this may be a viable route
to other perchlorates.
These new regulations are bad, but in some way, they can also be made into an advantage. The really interested people will develop methods and skills
to make their own chemicals. I certainly expect a rise in interest in electrochemistry for making chlorate and perchlorate salts and a rise in
interest in making NOx from air, or more easily from nitrites, which in turn can be used to make HNO3. And I also expect sites like eBay and certain
online stores to be flooded with MMO-anodes, PbO2 anodes and other materials, needed for building chlorate and perchlorate cells. Probably this will
be so within a year, maybe two.
[Edited on 5-9-14 by woelen]
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metalresearcher
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Quote: Originally posted by woelen  | IIRC ammonium perchlorater already is covered by other regulations. E.g. Hinmeijer has no ammonium perchlorate on his list of chemicals and the same
is true for another well-known seller in the Netherlands (Labstuff). They both have perchlorates on their list, but no ammonium perchlorate. Both,
however, have HClO4 and that can be used as a basis for other perchlorate salts. However, the price for perchloric acid is quite high, it is not a
cheap chemical! I think that this is the reason why perchloric acid, magnesium perchlorate, barium perchlorate, copper perchlorate and maybe some
other metal perchlorates are not on Annex I, simply because they are so expensive that terrorist abuse of these chemicals hardly is possible. You need
multiple kilograms for a serious bomb and making the ingredients from e.g. HClO4 would be VERY expensive and it also would be VERY suspicious if a
customer tries to buy 25 liters of HClO4. Normally that is sold per half a liter, or 250 ml. For home chemistry, however, this may be a viable route
to other perchlorates.
These new regulations are bad, but in some way, they can also be made into an advantage. The really interested people will develop methods and skills
to make their own chemicals. I certainly expect a rise in interest in electrochemistry for making chlorate and perchlorate salts and a rise in
interest in making NOx from air, or more easily from nitrites, which in turn can be used to make HNO3. And I also expect sites like eBay and certain
online stores to be flooded with MMO-anodes, PbO2 anodes and other materials, needed for building chlorate and perchlorate cells. Probably this will
be so within a year, maybe two.
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+1 !
Very good ideas ! Nice challenges to make some chemicals yourself. I already made a small quantity of white fuming HNO3 a year ago.
But another thing is that other chemicals in multi kilogram quantities to make serious bombs (or terrible fire accidents) are easy to obtain. Think
about such common and cheap explosives as propane or gasoline.
To prevent this, the whole EU would move to electric cars and electric cooking and these fuels should not be sold to individuals anymore. And no
flammable gases in homes. But, obviously that is infeasible.
[Edited on 2014-9-5 by metalresearcher]
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The Volatile Chemist
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In the future, I could probably give out a few PSUs (Just computer ones) for electrochem...I have like 8 w/o use...  I'd like to hook a few up together sometime, though.
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jock88
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As more and more chemicals are banned the demand for Earth, Wind and Fire will rise and rise. They will soon appear in large quantities on ebay.......
Going slightly off topic, will Hydrogen Peroxide keep for long periods of time?
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aga
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Check that the Mains Earth does not connect to the 0v on the hard drive cable before attempting that.
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unionised
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I'm thinking of filling that form in with the details of someone I don't like so they get hassled by the police.
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Fantasma4500
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i recall once powdering some KClO4 with a spoon
when i looked at the spoon again it was for some reason extremely shiny, wondered me alot to think about since then
anyhow.. NaCl may work aswell.. but for the sand thing we could call it polishing solution??
NaCl is known to put things to a halt, mixing in some NaCl with KClO3 sugar surely messes up the burn, and im quite sure that i read something on SM
that NaCl can completely stop the reaction if theres just a decent amount in a pyrotechnical composition, potentially rendering it safer to ship as it
cant act oxidizer that well
anyhow, if they DO get offended, what the hell are they gonna do about it? go talk to EU and expect different rules in 5 years, and then they can go
fuck themselves for 5 years until then?
i would open up a store just to piss them off.
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nannah
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I am thinking about buying some H2O2 before its too late. Should i get it or is it illegal?
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Scr0t
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It depends on which European country you reside. If you're in the UK it's too late unless you acquire a license.
In my country I have no idea, there is no mention of it that I can find.
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nannah
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Have this new law come into work yet? I was thinking that you should order a liter or two 35% H2O2 from apc while i still can.
I dont need it, but it seems quite useful so it might need it in the future.
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prof_genius
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I think you can still buy hydrogen peroxide-urea, that could circumvent the ban.
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Dan Vizine
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Whoa....I just found this thread...wtf?!
Europe, what's come over you?
You want to thrown with us for the knee-jerk reactionism crown? We're from the US, the clear all-time masters of the art...
but, I'll give you this much, it's an audacious start!
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