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Chemstudent
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Perhaps off topic, but I've for years gargled with H202 to keep my teeth nice and white, but most importantly to disinfect my mouth after vigorous
brushing and flossing. It really helps knock out my sore throats as well when I'm ill. I of course gargle back but I don't drink it.
Also, I've read some interesting material regarding H202 being looked at as a viable chemotherapy drug. Of course though it will never be approved, it
is much too effective, cheap, and less harmful than the current expensive poison currently available for the FDA to ever approve. It is an alternative
therapy in use, but not actively prescribed to patients with cancer.
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weiming1998
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Quote: Originally posted by Chemstudent  | Perhaps off topic, but I've for years gargled with H202 to keep my teeth nice and white, but most importantly to disinfect my mouth after vigorous
brushing and flossing. It really helps knock out my sore throats as well when I'm ill. I of course gargle back but I don't drink it.
Also, I've read some interesting material regarding H202 being looked at as a viable chemotherapy drug. Of course though it will never be approved, it
is much too effective, cheap, and less harmful than the current expensive poison currently available for the FDA to ever approve. It is an alternative
therapy in use, but not actively prescribed to patients with cancer.
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Seriously? How did an H2O2 therapy supporter get on a chemistry forum?
Anyway, to respond to your claims:
1, H2O2 does act as a disinfectant and kills bacteria. However, it cannot kill viruses effectively because the virus replicate by injects its DNA/RNA
sequence into cells, so the H2O2 cannot cure a virus infestation without killing the host cells of the viruses first, and if it is at such a high
concentration, it would destroy normal cells as well. That's why antibiotics doesn't work on viruses.
2, H2O2 is DEFINITELY not a viable chemotherapy drug. It cannot target a certain cancerous organ, for example, as its half-life in the body is short,
because the enzymes in blood will rapidly catalytically decompose the peroxide. Even if it doesn't get catalytically decomposed by the time it reaches
the targeted organ, the concentration would be too small to do anything at all. Cancer cells are not oxygen-fearing monsters, they are simply mutated
versions of normal cells, and not much different, so it is extremely difficult to target cancer cells without destroying normal cells. That is why
chemotherapy does so much damage in the first place! So concentrations of H2O2 large enough to destroy cancer cells will destroy normal cells!
3, Alternative therapies use two tactics, the demonization of conventional medicine and large amount of testimonials. So what you might be reading
about "miracle H2O2 cure" might simply be just a collection of testimonials (which, mind you, is an extremely unreliable form of evidence),
speculations, and ad hominem attacks to the "Big Pharma".
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Chemstudent
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| Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998 |
Seriously? How did an H2O2 therapy supporter get on a chemistry forum?
Anyway, to respond to your claims:
1, H2O2 does act as a disinfectant and kills bacteria. However, it cannot kill viruses effectively because the virus replicate by injects its DNA/RNA
sequence into cells, so the H2O2 cannot cure a virus infestation without killing the host cells of the viruses first, and if it is at such a high
concentration, it would destroy normal cells as well. That's why antibiotics doesn't work on viruses.
2, H2O2 is DEFINITELY not a viable chemotherapy drug. It cannot target a certain cancerous organ, for example, as its half-life in the body is short,
because the enzymes in blood will rapidly catalytically decompose the peroxide. Even if it doesn't get catalytically decomposed by the time it reaches
the targeted organ, the concentration would be too small to do anything at all. Cancer cells are not oxygen-fearing monsters, they are simply mutated
versions of normal cells, and not much different, so it is extremely difficult to target cancer cells without destroying normal cells. That is why
chemotherapy does so much damage in the first place! So concentrations of H2O2 large enough to destroy cancer cells will destroy normal cells!
3, Alternative therapies use two tactics, the demonization of conventional medicine and large amount of testimonials. So what you might be reading
about "miracle H2O2 cure" might simply be just a collection of testimonials (which, mind you, is an extremely unreliable form of evidence),
speculations, and ad hominem attacks to the "Big Pharma". |
To 1.) - The H202 does a great job of clearing the nasty white bacteria growing on the tongue when I'm ill and just as a whole alleviates most sore
throats I get.
To 2.) - From the literature I've read, and yes some testimonials including a family member H202 does appear, at least to me viable as an IV
administered chemo drug, I say this because its function is very much similar to other chemo drugs while its breakdown products are quite harmless.
And it's damned cheap considering the alternative will cost a bundle. I still believe its viable
To 3.) - As much as I hate being lumped into the same group as green living vegans and alternative nutrition junkies, I do openly admit that i have a
permanent grudge against the medical establishment. I cannot believe in a system that is heavily involved with drug lobbying. Hell, the rules of
business apply here just like anywhere else.
Hope I'm targeted at "one of those guys" on this forum though. :/ Don't think me a hippy please! :p
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weiming1998
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| Quote: Originally posted by Chemstudent | | Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998 |
Seriously? How did an H2O2 therapy supporter get on a chemistry forum?
Anyway, to respond to your claims:
1, H2O2 does act as a disinfectant and kills bacteria. However, it cannot kill viruses effectively because the virus replicate by injects its DNA/RNA
sequence into cells, so the H2O2 cannot cure a virus infestation without killing the host cells of the viruses first, and if it is at such a high
concentration, it would destroy normal cells as well. That's why antibiotics doesn't work on viruses.
2, H2O2 is DEFINITELY not a viable chemotherapy drug. It cannot target a certain cancerous organ, for example, as its half-life in the body is short,
because the enzymes in blood will rapidly catalytically decompose the peroxide. Even if it doesn't get catalytically decomposed by the time it reaches
the targeted organ, the concentration would be too small to do anything at all. Cancer cells are not oxygen-fearing monsters, they are simply mutated
versions of normal cells, and not much different, so it is extremely difficult to target cancer cells without destroying normal cells. That is why
chemotherapy does so much damage in the first place! So concentrations of H2O2 large enough to destroy cancer cells will destroy normal cells!
3, Alternative therapies use two tactics, the demonization of conventional medicine and large amount of testimonials. So what you might be reading
about "miracle H2O2 cure" might simply be just a collection of testimonials (which, mind you, is an extremely unreliable form of evidence),
speculations, and ad hominem attacks to the "Big Pharma". |
To 1.) - The H202 does a great job of clearing the nasty white bacteria growing on the tongue when I'm ill and just as a whole alleviates most sore
throats I get.
To 2.) - From the literature I've read, and yes some testimonials including a family member H202 does appear, at least to me viable as an IV
administered chemo drug, I say this because its function is very much similar to other chemo drugs while its breakdown products are quite harmless.
And it's damned cheap considering the alternative will cost a bundle. I still believe its viable
To 3.) - As much as I hate being lumped into the same group as green living vegans and alternative nutrition junkies, I do openly admit that i have a
permanent grudge against the medical establishment. I cannot believe in a system that is heavily involved with drug lobbying. Hell, the rules of
business apply here just like anywhere else.
Hope I'm targeted at "one of those guys" on this forum though. :/ Don't think me a hippy please! :p |
According to Wikipedia (which may or may not be reliable), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemotherapy
Chemotherapy drugs target the replications of cells, so that even though normal cells will not be able to replicate, cancer cells, which usually
replicate and die faster, will die out faster than normal cells. New anticancer medicine targets mutated proteins directly, according to the article.
H2O2 does none of these things. Its damage to cells is oxidative damage, which damages all cells equally instead of targeting the faster-dividing
cancer cells like in conventional chemotherapy. Intravenous injection of H2O2 is dangerous to the extreme, as it would destroy cells at the injection
site and, if in a large dose, be unable to be all catalytically decomposed, which would cause the destruction of blood and body cells as it disperses
around the body. Small doses will be completely decomposed by the catalysts in blood, and thus be useless in destroying cancer cells.
No matter how convincing the testimonials might be, or that you distrust conventional medicine, solid evidence is still required, in the form of
numerous well-documented double-blind trials, in order to prove that H2O2 works in treating cancer. This is the problem with almost all the
alternative therapies out there.
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Chemstudent
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I see your point, and it does make sense now why H202 would not be ideal although I stated otherwise. Indeed it would wreak havoc on the site of
injection and it is not known just how long in the blood it would be active as H202 before being reduced itself. However! It may prove useful for some
situations. There might be situations where it could be used as a site specific treatment, cause the damage only where needed then dissipates as
oxygen and water? But before I'd ever use H202 and chemo in the same sentence I think I'll have to spend some time looking at the literature.
But on the other hand again, it sounds counter intuitive to introduce an oxidation challenge to the body, when all the evidence does point to free
radical damage contributing to rogue cancer cell development.
Edit: I spent much time now looking for something.... anything credible. Pubmed, CAS website, etc etc... and I couldn't find anything outside of
Youtube or alternative medicine blogs on efficacy of H202 in treating cancer. Some in vitro studies yes I found and some rat studies but nothing
compelling no matter how deeply I read into it. Team H202 only made the case for peroxide seem more silly, they would make claims that H202 is simply
water and an oxygen... and we breath oxygen so it must be good. And they all miss that O2 (breathable air) and ground state O^2- are way different.
But regardless, claims that it "oxygenates" the blood and makes an environment no suitable for cancer are said.
Now I'm scratching my head at this. How does a simple O2- free radical induce apoptosis in a cancer cell?.... I feel embarrassed for having brought
this all up now :/
Still though, I don't trust most doctors, its not just that I formed a negative opinion from bad experience or from exposure to fear mongers, just I
find I know better with regards to my body, nutrition, when I'm not well, etc. I read my own blood work and make my own conjectures. A doctor for me
is just a type of a surrogate, someone who I can ask how would a medication affect me, etc. Can then tell me based on having given the same drug to so
many people over the years and seen blood results for so many people can give me a real world estimate as to a drugs or treatments efficacy. Save for
that why would I need a doctor? I have a tenacity for learning whatever it is that concerns me, and I fixate upon it for hours or more until I have
absurdness, and I look at many angles not just one route or another like the orthodox.
[Edited on 20-4-2012 by Chemstudent]
[Edited on 20-4-2012 by Chemstudent]
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weiming1998
National Hazard
Posts: 616
Registered: 13-1-2012
Location: Western Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Amphoteric
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| Quote: Originally posted by Chemstudent | I see your point, and it does make sense now why H202 would not be ideal although I stated otherwise. Indeed it would wreak havoc on the site of
injection and it is not known just how long in the blood it would be active as H202 before being reduced itself. However! It may prove useful for some
situations. There might be situations where it could be used as a site specific treatment, cause the damage only where needed then dissipates as
oxygen and water? But before I'd ever use H202 and chemo in the same sentence I think I'll have to spend some time looking at the literature.
But on the other hand again, it sounds counter intuitive to introduce an oxidation challenge to the body, when all the evidence does point to free
radical damage contributing to rogue cancer cell development.
Edit: I spent much time now looking for something.... anything credible. Pubmed, CAS website, etc etc... and I couldn't find anything outside of
Youtube or alternative medicine blogs on efficacy of H202 in treating cancer. Some in vitro studies yes I found and some rat studies but nothing
compelling no matter how deeply I read into it. Team H202 only made the case for peroxide seem more silly, they would make claims that H202 is simply
water and an oxygen... and we breath oxygen so it must be good. And they all miss that O2 (breathable air) and ground state O^2- are way different.
But regardless, claims that it "oxygenates" the blood and makes an environment no suitable for cancer are said.
Now I'm scratching my head at this. How does a simple O2- free radical induce apoptosis in a cancer cell?.... I feel embarrassed for having brought
this all up now :/
Still though, I don't trust most doctors, its not just that I formed a negative opinion from bad experience or from exposure to fear mongers, just I
find I know better with regards to my body, nutrition, when I'm not well, etc. I read my own blood work and make my own conjectures. A doctor for me
is just a type of a surrogate, someone who I can ask how would a medication affect me, etc. Can then tell me based on having given the same drug to so
many people over the years and seen blood results for so many people can give me a real world estimate as to a drugs or treatments efficacy. Save for
that why would I need a doctor? I have a tenacity for learning whatever it is that concerns me, and I fixate upon it for hours or more until I have
absurdness, and I look at many angles not just one route or another like the orthodox.
[Edited on 20-4-2012 by Chemstudent]
[Edited on 20-4-2012 by Chemstudent] |
The problem with those alternative treatments is that they spin off a huge tale about something curing cancer with literally no studies proving that
it does. There's only videos on Youtube, testimonials, blogs and more testimonials. It only appeals to emotion, not to evidence.
H2O2, is very different from O2, because of the O-O bond, as you said. The free radicals it breaks into are more oxidizing. Oxidation damage of DNA
are cause of cancer, so technically, intravenous injections of H2O2 might increase the possibility of cancer. The claims about oxygenating the blood
is even more absurd, as blood is already saturated with oxygen every time we breathe. The claim that cancer cells cannot survive in an aerobic
environment is definitely false as it is just a mutated version of normal cells. So a concentration of H2O2 large enough to destroy cancer will
destroy normal cells, possibly with disastrous consequences, as blood filled with H2O2 reaches the heart and lungs.
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plastics
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When you need a colorectal surgeon to cut out your bowel cancer
When you need an obstetrician to deliver your baby when its head is too big to fit through your pelvis
A trauma surgeon to quench the haemorrhage when you crash your car
A plastic surgeon to replant your fingers cut off by your circular saw
A potato surgeon to amputate that huge chip on your shoulder
Not all doctors are pill pushing opportunists funded by the drug industry
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Chemstudent
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| Quote: Originally posted by plastics |
When you need a colorectal surgeon to cut out your bowel cancer
When you need an obstetrician to deliver your baby when its head is too big to fit through your pelvis
A trauma surgeon to quench the haemorrhage when you crash your car
A plastic surgeon to replant your fingers cut off by your circular saw
A potato surgeon to amputate that huge chip on your shoulder
Not all doctors are pill pushing opportunists funded by the drug industry |
Yes.. I do understand what you are saying. And I started reading potato surgeon and said what the heck? Then I got it :p real cute
Living in south florida though, seems there is no short of pill pushing opportunists. A new pain clinic opens up just as another shuts down on a
weekly basis here. Sigh... yeah, I think I do need that potato surgeon :/
And H202 looks retarded now that i analyzed it, and the above post is right on. Claims that cancer cannot live in an aerobic environment are silly,
but there is a body of evidence showing elevated blood sugar or consumption of casein protein can fuel replication of cancer cells.
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weiming1998
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| Quote: Originally posted by Chemstudent | | Quote: Originally posted by plastics |
When you need a colorectal surgeon to cut out your bowel cancer
When you need an obstetrician to deliver your baby when its head is too big to fit through your pelvis
A trauma surgeon to quench the haemorrhage when you crash your car
A plastic surgeon to replant your fingers cut off by your circular saw
A potato surgeon to amputate that huge chip on your shoulder
Not all doctors are pill pushing opportunists funded by the drug industry |
Yes.. I do understand what you are saying. And I started reading potato surgeon and said what the heck? Then I got it :p real cute
Living in south florida though, seems there is no short of pill pushing opportunists. A new pain clinic opens up just as another shuts down on a
weekly basis here. Sigh... yeah, I think I do need that potato surgeon :/
And H202 looks retarded now that i analyzed it, and the above post is right on. Claims that cancer cannot live in an aerobic environment are silly,
but there is a body of evidence showing elevated blood sugar or consumption of casein protein can fuel replication of cancer cells.
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Really? Right where I am, in Western Australia, there seems to be an endless number of proponents for alternative medicine treatment. All health shops
and even proper pharmacies have "alt-garbage" sitting on the shelves (colloidal silver, chlorophyll, bio?active magnesium, liquid oxygen(really just
salt water), and even homeopathy remedies).
The number of chiropractic and physiotherapy clinics alone is probably more than the number of proper pharmacies! Then there's also the acupuncture
clinics, health massage shops, reflexology clinics, new age crystal healing shops and lots more. There's also the need to put "chemical free" on
almost everything.
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Nicodem
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Indeed "H202" indeed looks quite retarded, because the symbol for oxygen is the letter "O" and not the number "0".
My annoying reply is less off topic than it might appear at the first glance. An analysis would show that the topic is very much connected to the same
type of ignorance that leads to the suggestion on using H2O2 as a chemotherapy drug.
Chemstudent, don't take this personally. I can offer you a consolation. You are not the only one believing "0" means oxygen. So did the the member who
replied to the original poster:
PS: | Quote: Originally posted by The_Davster | | Tom, he was not even trying to spell catalyst. Catalase is a natural enzyme in all animals(is it in plants too?) that decomposes the H2O2 produced
during cellular processes to hydrogen and water. |
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Chemstudent
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Hey, cut me some slack here o and 0 are right next to each other on the key board!! 
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AJKOER
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A possibly pertinent observation is that H2O2 and Chlorine based disinfectants (basically relying on HOCl) are both not as powerful as H2O2/Acetic
acid, which forms Peracetic acid, also known as peroxyacetic acid, or PAA. It is broadly effective against microorganisms and is not deactivated by
catalase and peroxidase, which are the enzymes that break down hydrogen peroxide. Per Wkipedia: "Peracetic acid kills microorganisms by oxidation and
subsequent disruption of their cell membrane, via the hydroxyl radical (HO·).....It can damage virtually all types of macromolecules associated with
a microorganism: carbohydrates, nucleic acids (mutations), lipids (lipid peroxidation), and amino acids (e.g., conversion of Phe to m-Tyr and o-Tyr).
This ultimately leads to cell lysis and true microbial death."
Interestingly, PAA can control even Legionella bacteria while H2O2 and HOCl cannot. The reason being it's strong oxidizing ability and its
insensitivity to otherwise deactivating enzymes.
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Also, do not discount colloidal silver, which predated antibiotics as an effective treatment to kill germs and viruses. And, unlike its reputed
antibiotic replacements, it does not breed super bugs. Interestingly, it is currently being looked at to address things like HIV no less.
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On the comment that "Not all doctors are pill pushing opportunists funded by the drug industry", I must confess that I fired my traditional doctor who
actually had a prescription pad next to his pill ads and vacation rewards program from a drug company.
[Edited on 27-4-2012 by AJKOER]
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