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Maya
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would it be preferable to to store long term 2X , 7 pound each , round ingots of Na , 4.5" Dia x 7.5" length,
in either Mylar vacuum sealed bags, or
in Paraffin Oil in a Kautex Jar?
http://www.freundcontainer.com/kautex-wide-mouth-leak-proof-...
The ingots came a long time ago and I still have them in the original packaging, which is basically allota
plastic wrap. Yes, they have developed some oxide coating but that is easily scraped off since they are soo big.
Also what is the best way to cut these beasts up? I am in a non-humidity challenged environment, so AC is on alot.
Thanks for responding
\"Prefiero ser yo extranjero en otras patrias, a serlo en la mia\"
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Hexavalent
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I use white spirits to store my Li and Na - it's clean, very cheap and my source is completely dry, ideal for the storage of these metals.
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
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Panache
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Mood: Instead of being my deliverance, she had a resemblance to a Kat named Frankenstein
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Seal the elements in carbonite, it stopped Han Solo's human body from decaying so i'm sure it would be fine for Na and Li.
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Hexavalent
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Indeed, where would one obtain some carbonite, Panache?
[Edited on 20-7-2012 by Hexavalent]
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
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Random
International Hazard
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Quote: Originally posted by DerAlte  | I have often wondered how suppliers of Li metal pack and ship the stuff. Li is so light that any hydrocarbon (SG ~0.89) causes it (SG ~ 0.59) to float
largely out of the liquid. Perhaps some of our professional chemists that use the stuff can tell us.
My personal experience with a strip extracted from a battery several years ago is that it begins to oxidize immediately, probably to hydroxide due to
humidity. This being denser falls to the bottom of the oil. Along with this a black coating is observed (Li3N? But I thought that only occurred at
higher temps.) This black also sinks. On adding water the black turns white under the oil. The white stuff is fairly soluble in water and can be shown
to be the hydroxide. My sample degraded completely over about 3 years in spite of a tight container.
Edited to correct to Li3N
Der Alte
[Edited on 19-6-2012 by DerAlte] |
I was thinking to prevent this, a special bottle could be made.
For example, take pickle jar. In the middle of the pickle jar, you could stick something like a mesh that is not reactive to lithium or mineral oil.
Mesh sticked to the middle wouldn't allow the lithium to go upwards.
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Random
International Hazard
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| Quote: Originally posted by DerAlte | I have often wondered how suppliers of Li metal pack and ship the stuff. Li is so light that any hydrocarbon (SG ~0.89) causes it (SG ~ 0.59) to float
largely out of the liquid. Perhaps some of our professional chemists that use the stuff can tell us.
My personal experience with a strip extracted from a battery several years ago is that it begins to oxidize immediately, probably to hydroxide due to
humidity. This being denser falls to the bottom of the oil. Along with this a black coating is observed (Li3N? But I thought that only occurred at
higher temps.) This black also sinks. On adding water the black turns white under the oil. The white stuff is fairly soluble in water and can be shown
to be the hydroxide. My sample degraded completely over about 3 years in spite of a tight container.
Edited to correct to Li3N
Der Alte
[Edited on 19-6-2012 by DerAlte] |
I was thinking to prevent this, a special bottle could be made.
For example, take pickle jar. In the middle of the pickle jar, you could stick something like a mesh that is not reactive to lithium or mineral oil.
Mesh sticked to the middle wouldn't allow the lithium to go upwards.
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Dave Angel
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| Quote: Originally posted by MR AZIDE | Of more interest to UK people, but I bought a pack of the Ultimate Li AA size batteries today, from Morrisons market......£3.99.........quite a bit
cheaper than most places. Argos are charging £7.49 for the SAME PRODUCT!!
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Wish I'd seen this earlier. I've checked my local Morrisons and all I can find is 2 x AAA for £3.89. Was yours a 2 or 4 pack?
Regarding the storage of lithium, perhaps a good lump of glass fibre wool shoved into the top of a full bottle would keep the metal under, effectively
holding it mid-way up in the oil.
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weldit
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Sodium ingots
I bought two large ingots 5 years ago and vacuum packed them. I cut off a piece and store that under toluene. The vacuum packed pieces are still
nice and shiny after 5 years
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Dave Angel
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So true - after my unsuccessful trip to Morrisons I couldn't just give up there.
Check out PC World and Currys - they have 4 x AA Energizer Ultimate Lithiums at £2.97 a pack! Duracells are being pushed so, by the looks of it,
they're either doing clearance sales or trying to undercut Duracell.
Needless to say, I'm stocked up now
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Zan Divine
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"Perhaps some of our professional chemists that use the stuff can tell us." - Random
This question gets overthought a lot. Just fill the bottle (almost)entirely with whatever liquid you choose.
Most chemists would simply purge empty head space with argon knowing full well that if they need really clean Li a glovebox is the real answer. Most
preparative reactions employing Li commonly can tolerate a little nitride/hydroxide so.....
He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of some of the pain of being a man. --HST
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Pyro
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you know what works wonders for that? vacuum packing.
get your Kg lump of alkali metal, and cut it into 50-150g pieces, depending on how much you use. i use 50g pieces. then take your jar of 50g pieces
under oil to a restaurant you know well, and tell them you will give them 5$ to vacuum seal 20 small bags, then put a piece in each bag, with a tiny
bit of oil. then vacuum seal it.
that way you can have 50g out at a time, and when you need more you just open the vacuum sealed bag and take out a fresh untarnished one.
all above information is intellectual property of Pyro.  |
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Fusionfire
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| Quote: Originally posted by Zan Divine |
Neither tetralin nor any other solvent found @ STP in any lab is lighter than lithium. Look all you want, you won't find one.
Even 2-methyl butane has a density of .6201 g/mL at 20 C. Pentane is slightly denser. Butane is a gas. So...
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You can store lithium in butane gas. The objective is to displace any potential oxidisers that can react with lithium. Just put it in a glass jar and
flush out the air with butane.
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Zan Divine
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| Quote: Originally posted by Fusionfire | | Quote: Originally posted by Zan Divine |
Neither tetralin nor any other solvent found @ STP in any lab is lighter than lithium. Look all you want, you won't find one.
Even 2-methyl butane has a density of .6201 g/mL at 20 C. Pentane is slightly denser. Butane is a gas. So...
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You can store lithium in butane gas. The objective is to displace any potential oxidisers that can react with lithium. Just put it in a glass jar and
flush out the air with butane. |
Actually, with lithium the objective isn't merely to get rid of oxidizers. Unique among the group 1 elements, lithium reacts with nitrogen even more
readily than with oxygen. That's why freshly cut Li turns black (the nitride) rather than white (hydroxide). And both of these degradative pathways
require H2O vapor to catalyze them. Gaseous blankets are harder to do well than liquids as you can't see the stuff you missed as readily. Also, most
people have better and easier means to dry liquids than gasses.
[Edited on 23-7-2012 by Zan Divine]
He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of some of the pain of being a man. --HST
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edgecase
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For a source of lithium, has anyone considered the laptop/cellphone battery waste stream?
The PEX tubing used for hot-water (heating) systems comes with an aluminum layer marketed as "oxygen barrier". I believe that is why the mylar
packaging also has an aluminum lining like a potato chip bag. Are those available for vacuum sealers?
Obviously glass is good for preventing oxygen diffusion, but the plastic cap of most bottles would allow oxygen diffusion, as would most liquids, so
perhaps the aluminum lined lids of scintillation vials (or a piece of aluminum foil), or even a glass stoppered bottle would be best?
Someone has mentioned the baby oil, but maybe that was overlooked so repeating it here.
Although not one of the metals that responds *quickly* to a reducing environment of hydrogen (like mercury would), I wonder if a liquid sparged (ie
saturated) or a bottle pressurized with dry hydrogen gas (instead of helium or argon as would normally be done) would maintain or even slowly clean an
alkalai metal sample?
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Zan Divine
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| Quote: Originally posted by edgecase | For a source of lithium, has anyone considered the laptop/cellphone battery waste stream?
The PEX tubing used for hot-water (heating) systems comes with an aluminum layer marketed as "oxygen barrier". I believe that is why the mylar
packaging also has an aluminum lining like a potato chip bag. Are those available for vacuum sealers?
Obviously glass is good for preventing oxygen diffusion, but the plastic cap of most bottles would allow oxygen diffusion, as would most liquids, so
perhaps the aluminum lined lids of scintillation vials (or a piece of aluminum foil), or even a glass stoppered bottle would be best?
Someone has mentioned the baby oil, but maybe that was overlooked so repeating it here.
Although not one of the metals that responds *quickly* to a reducing environment of hydrogen (like mercury would), I wonder if a liquid sparged (ie
saturated) or a bottle pressurized with dry hydrogen gas (instead of helium or argon as would normally be done) would maintain or even slowly clean an
alkalai metal sample? |
No such luck. Hydrogen won't reduce the nitride to Li. The best method is packaging in a sealed ampoule in vacuo or under argon.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=20125
And, if your seal is subject to diffusion leaks (every temporary seal is), it's all a question of which method fails most slowly.
He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of some of the pain of being a man. --HST
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SM2
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| Quote: Originally posted by Endimion17 | Kerosene is a worldwide staple for storing sodium.
WD-40 would be OK, but I've just read that the propellant gas isn't butane anymore, but carbon dioxide, which would make a crust on alkali metal
surfaces.
I'd suggest you to open your lithium batteries shortly before using lithium. They contain lithium in the form of a foil which is prone to oxidation
and crumbling to waste. The only wy to somewhat prevent this is to pack the foil in a small, airtight bottle with as much kerosene/oil as possible, to
limit the amount of air above it. |
Might it be possible to use, per se., duster, and let that heavier gas sink into the jar. Use a technique where the Li/Na is stored under a
non-reactive gaseous blanket?
BTW: Some Li/Gas rxns. are SO endothermic, that they are used by our DOD in some torpedoes. I believe Li+ +SF6 is one of them. I have a big bottle
of sulfur hexafluoride if anyone needs that. Even though it's greenhouse rating is like 10K > than CO2, it is completely unrestricted. My aim was
to use it in a window soundproofing project, but we ultimately found that cheaper freons did almost as good a job (shich makes sense). Sory of topic
again.
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SM2
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If you really can't find mineral oil, but need something closely related, just buy some petrolatum, and nuke it carefully just a bit, until it is
liquid (before using). But make sure it is hotter than the melt temp., as a hotter petroleum jelly will give up more air bubbles. Of course, what a
pain in the ass retrieving and cleaning your ingots when ready to use. My suggestion is probably not a good idea, unless you absolutely want
something as close to mineral oil as possible, but can't get the real thing. Fortunately you have better options still.
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Panache
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If your problem is floating Li in a denser, albeit water and O2/N2-excluding solvent, the obvious solution is to simply stopper the flask and turn it
upside down.
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Pyro
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vacuum pack it, seriously!
all above information is intellectual property of Pyro. |
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MR AZIDE
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| Quote: Originally posted by Dave Angel |
So true - after my unsuccessful trip to Morrisons I couldn't just give up there.
Check out PC World and Currys - they have 4 x AA Energizer Ultimate Lithiums at £2.97 a pack! Duracells are being pushed so, by the looks of it,
they're either doing clearance sales or trying to undercut Duracell.
Needless to say, I'm stocked up now |
The last of the batteries were bought........they haven't re-stocked any.
The lithium has been stored under naphta/ white spirits, and weighed down well below the surface of the liquid, and it seems to be keeping OK. Its
easy to clean off any of the liquid as well.
Its a bit black, but there are still silvery patches to be seen after a few months.
BTW it was a 2 x AA pack.
Ive read that you can get ultimate advanced lithium batteries, which still contain Li, but are cheaper.......I havent seen them yet.
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