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Ozone
International Hazard
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Ah, the "good-old-days" (harp playing in background)...
When I was child (I mean 6), I was able to go to the drugstore and purchase KNO3, S8, hell, even 500mL cans of ethyl ether. My Grandmother used to
bring me there. I had a *very* comprehensive collection of chemicals, and that which was not provided by the "old school" Chemcraft set was provided
by either my Father (who is a Chemist) or my God-Father who is a Chemical Engineer. Either way, I had open access to, at age 6, what people cannot
receive today at any age (unless they are a representative of an institution bearing it's umbrella of lawyers and established accounts).
I have 10 fingers and have regrown my eyebrows; hair fell out, but everything is all good. At any rate, I believe that this environment led me to be a
Chemist (I'm after the Ph.D, now).
It strikes me, in a visceral way, how the only science that kids today are under liability to observe is the manufacture of *goop*. Silly putty is
nice, but if these are the influences that will make our next generation of Chemists, I suppose that it is no wonder that we will be soon licensing
the most modern scientific technologies from countries such as Korea, Japan, India and China...
What the hell happened to the *concept* of personal responsibility, nevermind, "balls" in North America (this is not sexist, it is merely a
colloquialism for "standing up for yourself".)?
Best wishes to all,
O3
-Anyone who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
--Albert Einstein
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DerAlte
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I believe there must be some restrictions. Although as a teen ager in the 1950's I was allowed to purchase almost anything bar Class 1 poisons, I just
do not trust the ignorance & stupidity of youth (and those who should have grown up) today. I had the benefit of paternal advice on things like
chlorate, white phosphorous (oh yes, I had that too - and Na, k, metals, 2 liters of conc (fuming) nitric, sulphuric and hydrochloric acidds - all
reagent grade). Of course it dodn't stop me doing a few foolish things.
The problem arises because of the prevalent lack of decent education. The stupid can read, just, and use the internet where all sorts of
misinformation abounds. The drug business is very big business and idiots use the stuff, becoming addicted and act as pushers to satisfy their habits.
Set yourself up with a meths lab and become rich, if you don't blow yourself up. The street price for amphetamines represents astronomical profits.
The more you rstrict drugs, the more the profit.
To get a gun you need a background check in most states. Likewise, in some areas you may have to sign a waiver to get chemicals. Although this is
inadequate to fully control criminal activity. at least it helps.
We cannot control the lunacy of the McVeighs and Islamic terrorists (Don't forget so-called Christian terrorists like Rudolph). However, every effort
must be made to make it damn difficult for them to achieve their twisted designs.
As a strict libertarian I agree some sort of control is necessary. Anarchy is worse than some order in society. These days I console myself with the
idea that a knowledgable and clever chemist can make almost anything he wants. It is the laws relating to possession that really irk me - this is
purely being assumed guilty of intent and cannot be logically proven. This applies to all glassware and tools used.
The USA is in the hands of idiots on the left and right who promulgate these policies. Logic has no place in politics, only money and power do.
Nietze's Wille zur Macht. The founding fathers would have a fit if they knew what had happened to the liberties they fought for.
Rant, etc.
DerAlte
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Organikum
resurrected
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DerAlte
....
As a strict libertarian I agree some sort of control is necessary. Anarchy is worse than some order in society.
....
DerAlte |
Thats the problem with you "libertarians" you should better become librarians because then you would know that Anarchy by definition is exactly this,
order in society without goverment.
Vive la anarchy! 
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DeAdFX
Hazard to Others
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DerAlte
We cannot control the lunacy of the McVeighs and Islamic terrorists (Don't forget so-called Christian terrorists like Rudolph). However, every effort
must be made to make it damn difficult for them to achieve their twisted designs.
DerAlte |
Not necessarily correct. The US could go back to do the days of isolationism. The US would greatly improve(get the fuck out you illegals) if it
focused on itself more. There are only three places in the world I care about North America, Central America and South America. I don't fucking care
about some god damn islamic tyrant who is killing his people or some god damn jackass who blew up a mosque. I don't care about holocausts or gulags
as long as they aren't here in America. Americans should only concern themselves with Americans.
Thank you very fucking much nazis + jews + japanese. Because of that little bump in history the US thinks it has moral high grounds and can involve
itself in everyfucking event that occurs around the world.
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The_Davster
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My knee-jerk reaction here is;
The rights of individuals to buy and own chemicals...
Shall not be infringed
But even I acknowledge that some control is necessary, not as much as these days, mainly fissile isotopes and potent poisons should be controlled.
The way I see it, there are two types of home scientists, those doing new research, and those trying to make existing compounds from common household
products. Both in my opinion are noble. One does not care where their reagents come from, if it gets them to what they want, wheras the other loves
improvising from what is available.(Giving the systems of controll a nice middle finger)
I completly agree that a sudden lack of control over chemicals would cause lots of accidents, however in the past people had acccess to whatever they
wanted, without major incidents occuring. If that were to sudenly become the situation today lots of people would be hurt, not just good old
darwinism type hurt, but innocent people getting hurt. Somewhere along the way people lost responsibility for their actions, landing us in todays
situation of excess controlls and realm of big brother and the nanny state. I cannot in all honesty see a shift backwards without some major paradigm
shift in society occuring. Things will get worse, untill the systems of control collapse into themselves.
Like I alluded to, I would enjoy being able to do more advanced type research, I have only 'discovered' a couple new routes to known compounds, but
due to the overregulation I cannot do this in more of an advanced manner. I do think a return to the systems in 'Uncle Tungsten' would be great for
science in general, but such a change cannot be thrust on a society which feeds off being regulated, without unintended consequences. Any change must
be gradual. Such a system back then was sufficient, and people were not living in fear because their neigbours could own white phosphorus and cyanide
and such things.
"Bottom line is I think the war on drugs has now turned into a global war on science, that is any science not conducted under governmental control and
supervision. I think we should be able to buy chemicals but I would not be against some kind of control for certain items like Pu providing we can
pass some kind or another of tests for knowledge, use, purpose, and so on, mind you this only for the real problem items. To make glassware illegal
while still selling kitchen supplies is beyond the pale of ignorance. Then again, does anyone know anyone in government who is not beyond the pale in
ignorance?"
"I would be quite happy if we simply returned to the days when adults could buy ordinary laboratory chemicals as easily as research institutions buy
them. I support additional controls for highly radioactive or highly toxic materials, but access should be a matter of training and education, not
financial means or institutional prestige (corporate/academic/government customers shouldn't be priviliged above their demonstrated knowledge, and
private citizens shouldn't be turned away in spite of demonstrated knowledge)."
Above quotes are good representations of what I think.
PS: Org: Whatever happened to you thinking anarchy had too many rules Tsk
Tsk
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DerAlte
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In spades, gentlemen, in spades! Especailly the last three. I know this is not the place to be political, but sometimes one's beaker boileth over! I
freely admit to being an old fart, and old farts are conservative, yes? I was a conservative in the old country. They betrayed me. I came here 42
years ago because the USA seemed to have gotten over the McCarthy nonsense and returned to some semblance of what the originators intended - freedom.
True, we had race riots here then - I was living near Newark then - and Vietnam was at its height with Johnson the cowboy at the reins. To my mind
Nixon was the best president I have seen, but - from afar - I had liked IKe and respected JFK. Forget Nixon's temporary aberration of Watergate, look
at the big picture. If you do that, then you will see that Reagan was a real nice guy, a good B actor but a puppet in the hands of his advisors.
Clinton may have been a lecher but his years were good ones. Bush I was a bit wimpy but correct with his Gulf war. Forget the rest. Carter has been
more effctive out of office (not saying much), Ford (who?) a draftee. I refuse to say anything about Bush II - I plead the fifth.
I do not agree that anarchy - meaning no rule - is the same as libertarian. All I ask is let me do my thing, don't bug me and I certainly won't bug
you. I'll make a point of it. Take your religion and don't try to bug me with nonsense. It's your right to believe. Abortion involves the right of
any woman to own her own body. It's no business of mine - you, madam, have to live with it. You want to own a gun? Prove you're worthy first. (I shot
rifles in the old country at age fourteen, machine guns and mortars too. It was called the Rotc. The army wanted officers. We had fun.)
Polital correctness will be the death of what the US stands for. Europe is about finished unless it sees the light. That's why I came here and stayed
here, It's worse everywhere else. but the old spirit seems to be vanishing. It's now a crime to be an individualist.
Ranting again.
DerAlte
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Rosco Bodine
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Dittos
And furthermore .....
Political correctness is *baby talk* attempted to be made the only "acceptable" and polite language for adults . And the methods for its imposition
are the misdirected and misapplied "child psychology" of control freaks who need to grow up themselves . The controllers have their own idea and
their own standard for what is right speech and right thought . And others conforming to their idea of what is "right" is in their estimation superior
to genuine free speech and free thought . Because it is their personal conviction it is better to be "nice" and use sugary euphemisms or keep silent
to avoid any controversy which arises with telling it like it is , or calling it what it is .....about anything or anyone .
Political correctness stands for nothing but stifling free expression , under the pretext of enforced tolerance
and sensitivity . It really stands for nothing but itself
and its architects views being imposed as the lowest common denominator and standard . Applied to a game
of hardball , it transforms into a game of softball which always ends in a tie , or no score is kept , since there would be an inequity about the
proposition where the outcome would produce a "loser" , as that would be
insensitive . But that's okay because distinguishing
between a winner and a loser is discrimination and
discrimination has a negative connotation ....right?
So we can't call a sightless person "blind" ....
no that might be interpreted as being insensitive ,
so we shall call the blind "visually challenged" .
And the unhearing can't be called "deaf" .....
no that also might be hurtful
(as if they could hear it anyway) ......
soooo we shall elevate their status and call
the deaf "hearing impaired" .
And it goes on down the list to complete absurdity ,
where reality itself is redefined in order not to
seem "insensitive" by plainly stating what is so ,
because calling a spade a spade is unfashionable .
There is a huge controversy in the US right now because
the baby talking tiny *minority* politically correct crowd can't be honest about the status of millions of border jumping illegal aliens , who are
assigned a class designation of assorted euphemisms like
"undocumented immigrants" or
"out of status guest workers" or similar absolute nonsense which is complete denial of what is the reality
of what they are .
"Political Correctness" seems to be an affliction mainly for the "intellectuals" who are attempting implementation
of their own ideas at social engineering and invention
of a new vocabulary which is the ebonics of the ivory towers where they live ....while 98% of the population
of remaining "ordinary people" simply roll their eyes at
the agenda and lingo of political correctness , and regard it as a sophomoric scam which could only have been conceived and perpetrated by those who
think they are smarter than the rest of us even as they prove they don't know shit from shinola .
You hear the subscribers to PC using all the PC terminology .....especially in the media , and it's almost as if they really are convinced this junk
they are talking is
the new language of the educated and sophisticated in pursuit of success , while normal people just shake their heads in dismay and recognize the
blind leading the blind about that idiotic proposition , awaiting the red meat
of a sensible word of plain talk which might make itself heard above the din so much "academic" hogwash .
On the firearms worthiness ......
Started shooting .410 shotguns on the range at age six , hunting quail with my dad and grandfather a couple of years later , a son of a gun and an
instinct shooter is what I am . You ever had your dad lay the unloaded gun
on the ground at your feet along with a cartridge and
a soup can ? He tells you pick up the can and throw it as
hard as you can , and while it is in flight you pick up the
gun and load it and shoot the can before it hits the ground .....and when you can do five in a row without a miss .....then you are old enough to go
hunting with the men .
Years later ....
Practice shooting for me was on the ROTC ranges on saturday mornings .
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G.i.B.
Harmless
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Don't you just love political correctness ! I once heard someone refer to slaves as temporary unpaid production workers. It's the same as
with buying chemicals, you have to draw the line somewhere. Just a shame that some politicians use these lines for their own political gain, and we
have to pay the price.
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DerAlte
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Rosco, you're on the ball! There's still hope, judging by some of the comments in this thread. Ive never hunted, but if I did I'd only hunt what I
could eat - or vermin. I have fished and eaten.
To paraphrase Oscar Wilde (?), noted queer, bless him, but one of the wittiest writer:- Political Correctness is the last resort of the scoundrel -
and the first resort of the politician.
I am not a senior citizen, I am an old fart. Call a spade a spade, not an agricultural implement.
I should adopt a new commandment: DerAlte, thou shalt not rant. Sorry!
Regards,
DerAlte
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vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
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Political correctness...
Doesn't that just scream oxymoron? Why does nobody notice??
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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quicksilver
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I have my own reaction to PC-speak..... I simply refuse to participate! And when some effort is made to make me submit - I digress immediately and
address the person attempting to bully my speech and thoughts. Generally, they NEVER expect someone to ask why they are attempting to make someone
conform. They are usually shocked to hear that they are being repressive. Often they are taken aback by the idea that they are acting intolerant. But
I don't back down.
My reasoning is that the whole PC Bullying issue is very restrictive to open, healthy communication. When someone has to continually think about
"offending" some concept in their speech pattern they rarely speak from the heart. That type of self-censorship is unhealthy at it's core because it
is essentially dishonest.
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franklyn
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"A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and substantial reason' why he should be permitted to exercise his rights,"
" The right's existence is all the reason he needs."
Read more: www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/05/federal-judge-rules-mary...
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neptunium
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i would prefer a free society where every one is responsible for their own actions. utopia? yes but not far out.
why not being able to purchase plutonium 244 at the local drug store? poison your self and its your fault you should've read the label! poison your
wife and you go to jail! simple as that!
The govt wants to impoe rules and regulations because they are smarter than the people?
drinking and driving is bad and should be enforced no doubt ! but nothing is done against a tired driver who will never even touch the brakes if
traffic has stopped ahead of him/her...but the cops is suppose to know better? bullshit!
same for chemicals dont know what you doing? want to do harm? go to jail or lose an arm or kill yourself! free country comes with responsabilities and
education!
why should a hot cup of cofee says "caution hot liquid" and not a warning label on mercury chloride for sale to the general public?
its all about control people .
i dont think anybody who watches big rich texas and the bad girls club or jersye shore will ever worry about buying nitro benzen...so i think outside
the few kids here and there dicking arround with TATP and losing a hand ,we should be fine .
there isnt much interest in science and chemistry anyway
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peach
Bon Vivant
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| Quote: | | "The restrictions that prevent private individuals from buying laboratory chemicals are an unjust infringement on their personal freedom."
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"Buying enriched plutonium is my right."
"Buying water and oxygen is not my right."
It's neither one or the other. Hence my choice, alongside one other person it seems.
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neptunium
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as long as you let people buy Pu244 i do not see the point of regulations ,
as i said before freedom is a responsability !
if you dont know what you doing with it then dont buy it or kill yourself
i am confortable with either one
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peach
Bon Vivant
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One can only be responsible for their actions if they understand what the real world consequences of those may be. The only way for that to happen is
to put regulations in place that protect them for some period of time (until they demonstrate otherwise) prior to them accidentally harming themselves
or someone else whilst they learn. E.g. no one needs plutonium to learn a lot about nuclear physics, which can then be applied to the former. I have a
basic grasp of electronics and the mains, but I still don't want to have to check every electrical appliance I buy to make sure it's not going to
roast me at a later date. Similarly, I doubt the majority of the people want to have to research everything they buy off the shelf to make sure it's
not going to explode or give them cancer in the space of one day.
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GreenD
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there is always a bad egg...
and bad eggs want freedom too.
ʃ Ψ*Ψ
Keepin' it real.
Check out my new collaborated site: MNMLimpact.com
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Mailinmypocket
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If everyone was responsible and knew the impacts of their use of the said chemicals, then yes.
If everybody was interested in exploring chemistry, following basic safety and disposal rules and not venturing into illegal or questionable areas (I
know energetics are questionnable to some but many members here are extremely skilled in the subject, and I would personally have no problem living
next door to them knowing their hobby and skill level) then it would be great. The problem is that some like to explore energetics in a dangerous way
without knowledge on the subject, in search of an explosion and a "whoa dude!" moment, then you have the serious home experimenter who is sold arsenic
trioxide and decides to make compounds and gases but doesnt follow disposal and safety rules...
My point I guess is that there are many irresponsible people and some up to no good with chemistry, that if everyone was given free access to any
reagent they wanted, things wouldnt be very good. Lots more toxins down drains, lots more pollution going down drains, liability issues for the
supplier etc
Its a tough issue and definitely annoying for the chemistry newcomer who gets denied chemicals from almost all companies though. I have been using the
same supplier for chemicals for the last 3 years and I have gained their trust and they will now sell me almost anything, no questions asked. I am not
a business etc.
I think building up a reliable reputation with a supplier might be the answer but then that becomes hard to control. Is the person buying this for
themselves or another person? Have they not bought from us in a long time because something bad happened? etc..
I think control is good because not everyone can handle a full spectrum of reagents responsibly and it is these people who "ruin" it for the real
amateur chemists.
[Edited on 9-4-2012 by Mailinmypocket]
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gregxy
Hazard to Others
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I think the state has a duty to stop one person from hurting another. The state also has a duty to make sure that people are accurately informed and
can understand the risks involved in products/activities they purchase/undertake, particularly ones sold for profit. Beyond that its up to the
individual.
Applying these rules, for example, a person would be able to make drugs for their own personal use, but not sell them, and not drive a car under the
influence. (There is an assumption here that if you are smart enough to make the drug you can understand the risks of using it.)
Energetics continue to be problematic since they don't have many uses to the common man other than making an impressive BOOM or trying to hurt
someone, but limiting quantities to less than 10g might make sense.
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vmelkon
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Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  | I do resent that I cannot just call up Aldrich or Fisher and order what I want.
There are lots of ways to cause mayhem abusing readilly obtainable items such as knives, chains, baseball bats, rocks, etc. Also many dangerous
chemicals are legal to buy such as gasoline and pesticides. But high demand by the public keeps those easy to buy. So, really governments just
restrict what is convenient for them to restrict.
Since it is easy to put paraldeyde or phosphorous on a restricted list and the public will not complain, they do it. |
I agree with Magpie.
It is all a matter of convenience.
They had banned ethanol (in the 1930's I think) but they finally find out that a lot of people want it and they can't do much about that so the law
was removed.
Imagine if 50% of people became marijuana users? Are they going to put 50% of people in jail?
I wish a lot more people did home chemistry.
[Edited on 19-4-2012 by vmelkon]
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Eddygp
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Interesting, actually... It should be somehow regulated, but not nearly as strange as it is now.
there may be bugs in gfind
[ˌɛdidʒiˈpiː] IPA pronunciation for my Username |
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Pyro
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i'm not saying you can't kill loads of people with chemicals, but its a lot harder and you need a lot more knowledge.
i like the quote 
[Edited on 1-5-2012 by Pyro]
all above information is intellectual property of Pyro. |
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Pyro
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ok,
wasnt my intention.
i am for the ability to buy whatever chemical you want.
all above information is intellectual property of Pyro. |
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franklyn
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Blame eco-terrorists for our plight.
www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/01/us-usa-security-cleveland...
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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Thread Split
3-5-2012 at 08:40 |
Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
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Mood: Waiting for spring
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Gun chat from this year's resurrection of this thread went to Detritus. Here's why: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=83...
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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Thread Split
3-5-2012 at 08:47 |
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