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XeonTheMGPony
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if it isn't broke don't fix it. when one has a well understood system it should be slow to change, and only when there is good well defined reasons
too. why allot of websites are crap, they add tons of garbage for the sake of change but no substance to it!
Main drive atm is the desire to reduce the use of lead compounds, and other heavy metals, Nickle is still a heavy metal
https://safety.lovetoknow.com/Nickel_Poisoning
https://www.environmentalpollutioncenters.org/nickel/
https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/phs/phs.asp?id=243&tid=44
So the need is still there for non metal primaries, to which tetrazoles are being investigated as plausible replacements.
All primaries are safe when handled competently, and all of them are extremely dangerous when handled incompetently. Some require more knowledge and
skilled touch then others.
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caterpillar
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As for me, I have zero interest in green technologies and in replacement of heavy metals at all. Hunters kill thousands of ducks- and even if they
miss their shots. Lead pellets fall down to the bottom of lakes, pools and so on. Ducks gulp them instead of normal stones. I have Ni-Cd and Ni-Fe
accumulators, each of then weigh 25 kg approximately. And you really think that I'll be bothered about two-three gr of nickel (or mercury, or lead)
that will be spread around due to my experiments???
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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Vomaturge
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I hope I am somehow misunderstanding this   That still sounds
like nasty and irreversible trauma to me. Coupled with an "occasional" probability of it happening, it actually sounds more threatening than having a "remote" or improbable" chance of a more serious
accident.
But that's just me, and I've never made blasting caps, so what do I know
Edit: the EPA limit for nickel ions in water is 100micrograms per litre. For lead, it's 15, for copper it's 1300, for mercury it's 2. So just because
something is a scary, environmentally harmful "heavy metal" doesn't mean it's highly poisonous like soluble lead compounds or mercury vapor. And the vapor form will definitely result from these kind of experiments.
[Edited on 23-6-2019 by Vomaturge]
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MineMan
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Nickel is no where near as bad as lead. And if it ain’t broke don’t fix it... that’s what separates the men from the boys... the men look for
constant improvement.
I was almost killed by a cap nearly run over by an excavator... there’s a lot of room for improvement.
It statistics Xeon, and probabilities I rather limit the probabilities of an accident because we are human. We all inevitability make mistakes or take
short cuts. I don’t understand why you are saying what you are saying...
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XeonTheMGPony
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Because some people go overboard with the "its scary" thing, as the one guy I responded to originally tot he point where they retard things. like
OH&S (Occupational health and safety) Here the bs they make you jump through actually increases risk at times.
Improve yes, but then you only implement it when there is simply no other ways to further test it, takes time, till then you use the best understood
system, as the better understood it is the less surprises you end up
Blasting is a dangerous job, all ways has all ways will (Rock blasting for roads here) this is where acceptable risk vs reward comes into play
His ignorance/fear of azide doesn't make it dangerous, the one handling it is the one who makes it dangerous, again the better one understands a
compound they can mitigate the risks to an acceptable level.
To do that they need to study it in small amounts test it, work with it, then as understanding grows they then can mature to making use full amounts
and then study cap designs and start building high efficiency caps using minimal amounts that are reliable so on.
" that’s what separates the men from the boys... the men look for constant improvement. "
All so separates the ones who get the job don in the mean time. you use the best tools that are known to work effectively, till there is a well tested
and demonstrated alternative that is shown to be better.
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caterpillar
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Who wants insensitive primaries, may try calcium mitriminotetrazolate, described by Clapotke. But the synthesis is a multi-stage process. And this
compound is hygroscopic, as at nearly all salts of calcium.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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Rocinante
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The idea of anything removing your fingers is ridiculous. Just compare your rib cage, lungs and your fingers. Do you think that a blast capable of
removing your fingers from 15 cm away would leave you in a survivable condition - with the same wave reaching your lungs 35 cm away? Maybe... if you
were right in ICU.
Every amputation is a direct result of fingers being mere centimeters (0 - 7 cm) from the primary explosive.
My prolonged blasting cap design avoids that. Just never let your fingers come close to a primary, Use tools.
[Edited on 24-6-2019 by Rocinante]
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caterpillar
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Quote: Originally posted by Rocinante  | The idea of anything removing your fingers is ridiculous. Just compare your rib cage, lungs and your fingers. Do you think that a blast capable of
removing your fingers from 15 cm away would leave you in a survivable condition - with the same wave reaching your lungs 35 cm away? Maybe... if you
were right in ICU.
Every amputation is a direct result of fingers being mere centimeters (0 - 7 cm) from the primary explosive.
My prolonged blasting cap design avoids that. Just never let your fingers come close to a primary, Use tools.
[Edited on 24-6-2019 by Rocinante] |
Where is your sense of humor, mate? Of course, you may lose your finger only when you hold a blasting cap and it goes off. However, there is one
exception, caused by the design of industrial caps. They create a small cumulative jet and I read that one woman was killed with such jet when the cap
was more than one meter from her.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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wessonsmith
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| Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony | | Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith | | Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar | | I formed a tube, wrapping aluminum tinfoil around a pencil. 0.5-0.8 gr of TATP inside. Cotton rope, boiled in a solution of KNO3. Then this rope was
dried and put into liquid sulfur. Then wrapped with adhesive plaster. Pushed into that aluminum tube and fixed with the same plaster. Burned slowly
and stable. Powerful enough to initiate a mix of AN+ ammonium picrate. |
You lost me at TATP. When anyone says they are using TATP, HMTD, Lead Azide. etc I say you haven't spent enough time to learn how to make safer more
powerful primaries. I am not trying to be rude but just straight to the point. Yes, it is VERY easy to make TATP and HMTD but it's just as easy to
seriously hurt yourself.
I got into energetics about 3.5 years ago and from the very start, I wanted to find a better way than HMTD and TATP. I did the research on those
primaries and saw the potential for trouble. Not to mention the reactivity of those primaries.
Nickel Hydrazine Nitrate (NHN) is an incredibly stable, safe and very powerful primary. |
LMAO Ya the industrial military complex hasn't don enough research, the Mining industry hasn't, you have the one true truth!
you lost all credibility a while back in my eye's so not like you could lose any more.
You do realize the toxic properties of high concentration of Nickle?
So ya, simple facts, there are reasons they are still Using Azide, that superseded Fulminate, and Terazoles are slowly working to replace Azide for
green reasons. |
Tetrazole's are interesting but many are still way too sensitive relative to NHN. FYI, NHN is being used in the mining industry 20+ million
detonators so far and as MineMan has pointed out the reason for adoption of new primaries isn't research it's not wanting to fix something that ain't
broke for them. They have the infrastructure and machinery to make detonators based on Lead Azide and Styphnate and see no reason to change it. You
on the other hand are an individual who doesn't have sophisticated machinery to protect you from the dangerously sensitive primaries you are playing
with. Instead of trying to advance the community with safer better primaries you choose to continue to push the same unsafe and dangerous primaries
with some silly twist.
I know you have lost the argument when you start comparing toxicity levels of Nickel vs Lead for the environment.
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wessonsmith
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| Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk | | What is wrong with dextrinated lead azide? You only need a grain to set of PETN, of which you only need half a gram to set of ANNM
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For companies with the equipment to safely make detonators based on Dextrinated Lead Azide it's fine. For us at the individual level who are prone to
make some mistakes, it is still way to sensitive. NHN is 80x less sensitive than Lead Azide. That is a huge margin. With NHN there is plenty of
margin to make some sloppy mistakes and not blow your face off.
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twelti
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Aside from the toxic properties of Hydrazine hydrate used in the synth, it does not look as easy as one would hope to find sources for.
[Edited on 27-6-2019 by twelti]
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MineMan
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Trust me. This is the future. 20yrs from now everyone in the mining industry will be wondering why they used LA... the mining industry goes in trends
and safety is a big one now, since they have traditionally been viewed as unsafe and dangerous jobs. But the safety trend is focused on the mines
itself. Not the manufacture of the products. It’s a difficult game to get into, making detonators and there is tons of LA stockpiled.. plus the dets
are made in Mexico...
For the most part LA is fine in a cap, until a dozer runs over it or a shovel hits a booster... but with those forces any primary and even most
secondaries will “go”
But as smith said for us, there are better options. We should not use the mining industry as an example here... also mining is afraid of change,
especially the explosive industry. Sure they do sexy research on laser and wireless detonators... but when it comes to the very basics they are
frightened of change. I believe the best scientist are not, and that is what we are here at SM.
Smith is spot on. And is the only member I am aware of to make such detailed contributions with such few posts, instead of feeling threatened less
welcome him.
It’s not all about years of expirence, it’s about insight and direction of thinking... and that’s why I belive Smith and Wesson is much closer
to the mark.
Fortune belongs to the bold.
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XeonTheMGPony
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| Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith | | Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk | | What is wrong with dextrinated lead azide? You only need a grain to set of PETN, of which you only need half a gram to set of ANNM
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For companies with the equipment to safely make detonators based on Dextrinated Lead Azide it's fine. For us at the individual level who are prone to
make some mistakes, it is still way to sensitive. NHN is 80x less sensitive than Lead Azide. That is a huge margin. With NHN there is plenty of
margin to make some sloppy mistakes and not blow your face off.
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if you are that sloppy it is a mere matter of time till you remove your head or hand.
EM's you only get to screw up once if you're lucky you just lose parts.
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Herr Haber
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@Smith&Wesson: Do you have data / a source to support that NHN is 80 x less sensitive than LA ?
Not challenging your claim but since LA can be more or less sensitive depending on how much dextrine (or PVA) was used the claim cant always be true.
But even if it's 10 or 20 times less sensitive it would be worth the trouble of a more complicated synthesis.
Also, what's NHN initiating power towards PETN and RDX compared with LA ?
I have tables with LA compared with a few other primaries but not with NHN. It seemed to me that LA performed better on average than other primaries.
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caterpillar
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Are there some organic perchlorates with acceptable sensitivity, that can be used as primaries?
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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wessonsmith
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| Quote: Originally posted by twelti | Aside from the toxic properties of Hydrazine hydrate used in the synth, it does not look as easy as one would hope to find sources for.
[Edited on 27-6-2019 by twelti] |
Hydrazine Hydrate is DANGEROUS but with a simple gas mask, gloves, eye protection, and some ventilation, it's very manageable. Sodium Azide is also
very scary.
I got my Hydrazine Hydrate from eBay. Contact me for help.
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wessonsmith
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| Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber | @Smith&Wesson: Do you have data / a source to support that NHN is 80 x less sensitive than LA ?
Not challenging your claim but since LA can be more or less sensitive depending on how much dextrine (or PVA) was used the claim cant always be true.
But even if it's 10 or 20 times less sensitive it would be worth the trouble of a more complicated synthesis.
Also, what's NHN initiating power towards PETN and RDX compared with LA ?
I have tables with LA compared with a few other primaries but not with NHN. It seemed to me that LA performed better on average than other primaries.
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First, the synthesis of NHN is very simple, not complicated. From start to finish I can produce NHN within 45min. Check out the Wiki page. It has
links to the sources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_hydrazine_nitrate
120mg NHN will initiate PETN in a det tube. While LA will perform better on a very small scale, NHN is more powerful and will overtake LA as you
increase NHN amount. When you consider the safety disparity between the two, NHN wins hands down.
[Edited on 27-6-2019 by wessonsmith]
[Edited on 28-6-2019 by wessonsmith]
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wessonsmith
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| Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony | | Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith | | Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk | | What is wrong with dextrinated lead azide? You only need a grain to set of PETN, of which you only need half a gram to set of ANNM
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For companies with the equipment to safely make detonators based on Dextrinated Lead Azide it's fine. For us at the individual level who are prone to
make some mistakes, it is still way to sensitive. NHN is 80x less sensitive than Lead Azide. That is a huge margin. With NHN there is plenty of
margin to make some sloppy mistakes and not blow your face off.
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if you are that sloppy it is a mere matter of time till you remove your head or hand.
EM's you only get to screw up once if you're lucky you just lose parts. |
You obviously don't understand the difference in sensitivity thresholds between something like LA and NHN, if you did you would stop talking.
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twelti
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| Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith | | Quote: Originally posted by twelti | Aside from the toxic properties of Hydrazine hydrate used in the synth, it does not look as easy as one would hope to find sources for.
[Edited on 27-6-2019 by twelti] |
Hydrazine Hydrate is DANGEROUS but with a simple gas mask, gloves, eye protection, and some ventilation, it's very manageable. Sodium Azide is also
very scary.
I got my Hydrazine Hydrate from eBay. Contact me for help. |
Will do. I did look on Ebay, and only saw one supplier (wishing I could just bu a small amount as it is not cheap). I'm still wondering if something
like nickel or copper aminoguanidine perchlorate, with appropriate treatment to make it less sensitive, would be as good. I'm somewhat new here, but
I'm guessing you would say that having a primary that is intrinsically less sensitive is better than one that is more sensitive but amended to be less
so. Is that correct then? I really like the ease and relative non-toxicity of the aminoguanidine complex(s).
What kind of mask would be appropriate?
[Edited on 27-6-2019 by twelti]
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underground
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Have you ever consider an EBW device ? In my opinion it is the safest way to initiate explosives.
[Edited on 27-6-2019 by underground]
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wessonsmith
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| Quote: Originally posted by underground | Have you ever consider an EBW device ? In my opinion it is the safest way to initiate explosives.
[Edited on 27-6-2019 by underground] |
Very safe but impractical for most day to day uses for the average guy. The detonators I use are very safe to manufacture and use due to the
relatively safe primary NHN. NHN can sit on a shelf for decades and not dangerously degrade like so many other primaries.
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Microtek
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In my admittedly limited experience with ANP (aminoguanidinium nickel perchlorate), it really isn't especially sensitive. Perhaps more so than NHN,
but less than lead azide. Additionally, ANP has an advantage over NHN in that it reliably makes DDT in milligram amounts with only light containment.
It behaves a lot like TATP (in this DDT regard only). When working on a small scale, that is very important.
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MineMan
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ANP is the bees knees. I belive it is insensitive enough to cast most worries aside, especially considering no more then 75mg is needed. The biggest
issue is keeping 1 gram in a cup to take the 75mg from. Yes, it’s is the perfect primary.
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Simoski
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For the beginner, you'd be hard pressed for a simpler start to detonator design than that of a plastic drinking straw, sealed on one end, filled with
a little hmtd and ignited with a fuse. Pros: simple, compact, no chemical incompatibility with the drinking straw, high VOD. Cons: synthesis of HMTD
is dangerous for a kitchen chemist, sensitive to shock and friction.
Again, for the beginner, I suggest starting with low explosives, black powder and H3 in particular and build devices capable of detonation (
supersonic combustion ) from those! Once you have mastered low explosive detonation using confinement then move on to high explosives.
[Edited on 29-6-2019 by Simoski]
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Rocinante
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Plastic straws or anything like it that bends easily is completely unacceptable and extremely dangerous.
The same goes for low quality seals that can let crystals in (small cracks/openings).
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