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entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
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Quote: Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust  | | Don't worry Entropy51, if I had spent 59 years believing bullshit propaganda, I probably wouldn't want to admit that it was in fact bullshit
propaganda either. No one likes to admit they are dummies. |
I don't think you know me well enough to call me
a dummy, to be honest with you.
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madscientist
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PCP is on the decline, yes. It has more to do with education than enforcement though: people are realizing what a nasty drug it is, choosing not to
use it, thereby removing the economic incentive to produce and push it.
It seems its usage has receded to those who don't care at all about their health. Gang members are well known for this. Because of them and their
"business model," PCP is still present in urban areas, and not at all hard to find.
Evidence that it's education and not enforcement that's led to a decline in PCP usage is found in the uninterrupted high availability of less
hideously unpleasant drugs, such as cocaine, heroin, amphetamines, pot, etc.
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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MagicJigPipe
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| Quote: |
As far as I know, PCP is rarely encountered here nowadays. I have not heard of a PCP related murder in probably over 10 years. Something certainly had
an effect.
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Because correlation always implies causality...
You give one example, PCP. Obviously you have had some rough personal experiences with the effects of this drug (ever asked yourself if the mother
would have stabbed her son anyway?) Drugs, even PCP, do not change the person on the deepest levels. Yes, it can make them mean, sadistic jerks
(e.g. alcohol) but I believe it rarely causes crimes like murder wherein the person committing the crime would NEVER have even considered it before.
Yes, maybe sex with ugly women, but typically not murder. It is apparent you have never "done drugs".
I also don't believe that law enforcement had much to do with the decline of PCP use. Ketamine, being similar, is still being used (although not
often). Also, I believe cocaine is now at an all time high of use despite the best efforts of our officers (who, by the way, are also killed in large
amounts due to this war). I just feel it is a bad sign when a government declares war on a HUGE segment of its constituency.
Why don't we just take all of those degenerate drug users and make some landfills out of them? That would surely get rid of the problem and then we
could all finally live in peace.
[Edited on 11-13-2010 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Sedit
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I have to disagree PCP is a drug that makes the person act like a schizophrinic and will degrade them on a deeper level. I have had experiances with
it and where as I have not had any desire in the slightest to abuse it I can very well see how it could drive someone to murder someone they would not
normally do so.
If someone was using this substance everyday you can bet there would be a mental decline so rapid that in a matter of a week there would be nothing
left of them but psychosis. Its not hard to murder your best freind when you fully believe him to be some form of the walking dead or that in real
life hes not really going to be hurt by it all. This is not your typical drug this is a complete disassociation from reality that could have some very
serious consequences. Where as it may be amusing to someone with a scientific mind to walk in the shoes of a skitzo for a few hours simular to LSD
generally it will take your sanity away much more permanet then LSD.
[edit]
BTW ... where yall high when you strayed this thread into a discussion on PCP? Seriously...
[Edited on 13-11-2010 by Sedit]
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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MagicJigPipe
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Give evidence, please. Even anecdotal would be acceptable to me if it seems to make sense.
Here's a quote from Wikipedia:
| Quote: |
However, studies by the Drug Abuse Warning Network in the 1970s show that media reports of PCP-induced violence are greatly exaggerated and that
incidents of violence were unusual and often (but not always) limited to individuals with reputations for aggression regardless of drug use.
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But since some elitists don't trust Wikipedia ever, let's examine the source. Well, it's a book(?) BUT it seems to be a well respected source for
this kind of information (A LOT of people reference it). Can anyone acquire this book in electronic format? One part of it is available on Springerlink but not the part that's referenced.
(A little bit about Wikipedia: Only a fool would not use Wikipedia for general information searching just because 1 out of 100 facts (arbitrary
figure) might be wrong and usually you can tell if you're not completely out of touch with reality. I have gathered an unbelievable amount of
knowledge from Wikipedia--perhaps even more than from school so far although it is much less systematic. In some ways I trust Wikipedia more than
some of the journals I've been reading lately.)
This seems like exactly the thing people would say who lived during the time of PCP propaganda and indoctrination. I'm not saying that psychotic
episodes don't happen with this drug but I suspect that entropy's and Sedit's views on this subject are greatly exaggerated because they lived during
this time.
| Quote: |
BTW ... where yall high when you strayed this thread into a discussion on PCP? Seriously...
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I'm high on life.
[Edited on 11-13-2010 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Sedit
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Nope sorry but I didn't live thru this PCP time and in all honesty MJD im pretty sure we are not so far from being the same age.
My views on it come from personal experiance with the substance and I just don't feel someone could retain there sanity very long using it on a
regular basis. I do believe most of the storys about it are propaganda however, like people frying there babys or jumping out of windows thinking they
could fly. The mental process it gives you are slightly different then that.
I remember someone after a single use of it, following a fat woman down the street who was waring a red dress, and yelling at the top of his lungs
because she thought she was a giant stawberry. That same night at almost the same exact time his girlfreind was in the house with me flipping out
because she thought her head was going to expload if she didn't here this song she wanted to hear but couldn't remember what it was. For me it induced
time and space distortions that are hard to explain. I remember hearing someone walking down the street that I couldn't see from such a long distance
away that its not even funny. I started to question what I was hearing until that person finilly walked into my view showing me that it was distorting
what I heared making the faint sounds of walking sound as though someone was beating a drum in my ear. Sitting next to someone sleeping this whole
time I constantly had conversation with them thruout the night hearing there voice even though they where not awake. Looking at there face it was
impossible to tell if there eyes where open or closed.
Sorry but thats all about as anecdotal as it comes since I never researched it very much at all in years.
When it boils down to it though one has to ask the question if someone would already have to be highly disturbed to abuse this substance. That could
explain the incidences attributed to it.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Gary
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Evidently, my query regarding the acquisition of lab specification reagents for legitimate amateur chemistry experimentation (intellectual
entertainment) has become a discussion on illicit substances! 
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Sedit
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Yeh it is kind of sick that it happens all to often around here that if the word drugs are mentioned or if the avalibility of reagents due to drug
manufacturing comes into play then the threads quickly detour onto there way to deterius.
I say keep your nose clean and your experiments legal along with proper storage and worse case senerio is you recieve a visit that even though you
dont really want it won't be as bad as many fear.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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hissingnoise
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If we're not taking drugs, we're talking drugs . . .
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MagicJigPipe
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I do believe your stories. One question I have is whether or not they were taking JUST PCP. I'm curious as to why ketamine doesn't have similar
effects.
Sedit, do you think that, even if you abused PCP quite often, you would've been able to kill someone on purpose? I think it is VERY rare where a drug
changes someone so much that they kill when they normally wouldn't even have had the tendency. Sure, lowered inhibitions can cause some crazy person
to actually do it, but if that's what we're talking about then most drugs could fall into that category, ESPECIALLY alcohol. But I think what we are
debating is the complete change of someone's personality (i.e. from pretty normal to baby murderer). I just don't think it happens all too often.
About the discussion of drugs:
There's nothing wrong with it. It affects EVERYONE's life (especially the laws set out to deal with drugs, IMO), and it has a great effect on the
hobby we all share. It makes sense to me that something that is so important should be discussed often. This is life and death; freedom and
imprisonment. Discussion of drugs and drug laws should continue just as discussion of any other relevant issue should.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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quicksilver
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Whenever you alter the thinking process of a human being there is the POTENTIAL for a tragedy. Just as when some develops "road rage" from emotional
imbalances, some become so romantically jealous they commit atrocities, the apha and omega is not necessarily a chemical. PCP, sniffing hydrocarbons,
etc are all disgusting (IMO) but they are not the deepest contributor of the problem of horrific acts. With each example of a disgusting thing done
under the influence; there would be equally horrific things committed stone sober.
The problems of interpersonal interaction are much deeper than a simplistic answer; be it the "war on drugs" or some feelgood pop-psychology. We face
a world where children have no childhood anymore, where the most narcissistic and self indulgent agenda is considered appropriate, where the
mutilation of a woman's body is done to look more "attractive", where status is defined by wealth or fame rather than acts of productivity, where a
witless childish idiot playing a child's game makes millions of dollars rather than a man who saves a life, where popular songs reflect theft,
violence, and reducing people (women) to "bitches & "hoes". These things are not only a reality: they are EMBRACED!
We live in a wonderland of fools. Is it any wonder that the violence committed reflects that low-functioning agenda? Where marketing is the heart of
politics and the goal of a elected official is to get re-elected; is it any wonder we have no real changes that alter our perspectives? Is it any
wonder that we look for altered perspectives in chemicals? The world around us won't provide it as it stands. We have a whole selection of pills for
depression....could it be that depression is actually the logical result of a world like this?
Maybe those people called "Depressed" are actually those who think more clearly than most? THAT would be a motherfucker.
[Edited on 15-11-2010 by quicksilver]
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MagicJigPipe
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| Quote: |
Maybe those people called "Depressed" are actually those who think more clearly than most? THAT would be a motherfucker.
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Interesting question. I'd like to think that I think clearly but I'm certainly not depressed. I dislike the way the world and the nations are
heading but I can still be happy day-to-day, overall.
[Edited on 11-15-2010 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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entropy51
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Anybody not drowning in denial (not the river in Egypt) can Google "PCP" and "murder" and examine the evidence the way that real grown-up scientists
do.
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Sedit
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MJD I have to ask but you don't have to answer if you wish but do you have experiance with this substance? I feel its not the normal alteration of
sences or inhibition like EtOH causes but more of a complete disconnection from reality for someone thats not really trained in the effects of these
substances. Iv never had the "pleasure" of seeing if any major mental decline takes place with this substance because its to harsh of a drug. But take
into consideration someone who is scared of clowns as an example being high on PCP and seeing a clown. I can assure you that there is no way in hell
that this meeting could end well. If that person had a firearm I would not doubt one bit for them to off the evil demonic zombie clown that was
"attacking" them. Given that someone can think that a fat woman in a red dress is a giant walking strawberry I can envision someone commiting murder
with ease when they normally would not think of such an act. This is just a dangerous substance because the normal suddenly become schizophrinic. Hell
my uncle underwent 2 week treatment after smoking weed laced with PCP and they found him walking along side of the highway after being lost in the
swamps for over a day looking for parts for his space craft.
I have never tried Ketamine and even though I would expect the effects to be simular the reports of its effects seem highly different. Given that
there is a variety of NMDA receptors all with slightly different effects there is the possibility of there being hugely different effects from it.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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anotheronebitesthedust
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| Quote: | | We face a world where children have no childhood anymore, where the most narcissistic and self indulgent agenda is considered appropriate, where the
mutilation of a woman's body is done to look more "attractive", where status is defined by wealth or fame rather than acts of productivity, where a
witless childish idiot playing a child's game makes millions of dollars rather than a man who saves a life, where popular songs reflect theft,
violence, and reducing people (women) to "bitches & "hoes". These things are not only a reality: they are EMBRACED! |
Quicksilver it seems like you may be depressed because that sounds like a very bleak world you live in indeed. Maybe I should be more thankful I live
in Canada where I see so many displays of greater human qualities, such as empathy and understanding, on a daily basis. Here's a good example of some
fine Canadians who did everything possible to help out a troubled teen:
http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/article/890684--as...
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MagicJigPipe
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| Quote: |
Anybody not drowning in denial (not the river in Egypt) can Google "PCP" and "murder" and examine the evidence the way that real grown-up scientists
do.
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Can you please move your dick switch to the 0 position?
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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entropy51
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Your usual level of informed scientific
discourse.
You're going to catch some wierd parasitic disease swimming in Da Nile river.
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quicksilver
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You are possibly more right than wrong on that account. I'm not too sure if I would say depressed but saddened & disappointed in certain
things......brother; no question!
I love my country but I certainly don't love the condition it's in.
Bleak - but not unique. One of the most disappointing things is that as I re-read my little rant; I find those things to be self evident in many
places down here in the "48".
I only Thank God that I can still laugh at myself ranting away over the ills of the country on the internet.
On a serious level, the right move would be for me to shut the fuck up and make a personal difference again and again and again..... It's just that on
occasion it feels like urinating on a home in flames.
[Edited on 16-11-2010 by quicksilver]
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MagicJigPipe
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But if we had 10,000 people urinating on a house fire in unison! Oh, the urea! (and cyanic acid, biuret, cyanuric acid, ammelide etc...)
I think you mean that it's like urinating on a firestorm ignited by a small nuclear weapon.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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quicksilver
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HA! You got it! But you know what would happen.....
Someone would get inflamed and brand it a pissing contest.....
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IrC
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Having been there I have to agree with Entropy. In 1970 I am in Daytona Beach getting ready to walk in to a place of music and beer. No memory of the
name. Standing in line outside in front waiting to pay two bucks and get my hand rubber stamped for admission. There were over a dozen people on the
street corner holding big bottles of pills asking everyone in line if they want to buy PCP. Less than a tenth had weed or acid, PCP was everywhere.
One of the guys in the little group of us out partying buys and eats one. Later I noticed he was not involved in reality, sitting there like a zombie.
He had been drinking beer and was soaked in piss as he could not get up to go. After a long time we finally got him moving and he started acting
violent. I had known this guy for years, through many circumstances where anger or aggression should have been his response in certain situations he
was as always meek and timid like Pee Wee Herman. Never before had I ever seen anger or aggression, no matter how much beer he drank. No idea how much
the combo with beer added but I knew nothing about this drug other than seeing him convinced me to never find out. I assure you this guy was gentle
and meek, PCP turned him into someone I had never seen in years of knowing him.
Anyway not why I came here, the author of this thread is correct all of this detracts from the subject. Rather than start a new thread I thought my
question fits the thread title enough to ask here.
Recently I saw an article where they busted a bomb maker. He got 14 counts of possessing chemicals for destructive devices combined with counts for
the bombs , etc.. No mention of what chemicals. I spent a while searching Cornell and what not but I am convinced they go out of their way when they
write this stuff to make it impossible for people like us to know the full law. If power over us is their goal it makes sense to keep us from
protecting ourselves, i.e., 'secret stuff' they can nail you for when they are throwing the book at you. I say secret as many hours of searching
yields little information or lists of what chemicals are 'list' for explosives. Other than of course the usual items like the explosives themselves.
So what is the list? If I have KNO3, nitric, zinc and Al dust, etc., and they raid me like they did United Nuclear how many of my Lab chemicals are
going to create 'added charges'? Not exactly all organics but I thought the question fits here.
How can I try to maintain a legal, private, amateur lab when they work to suppress the information about what they can and will use against me?
If anyone has a list of the chemicals they can now charge you for as explosive precursors please post. Not asking about nitro or RDX in the list,
rather everything we need for so much chemistry not related to the dual use LE is going to go after us for. Also I do not see much in the way of an
answer to Gary after two pages. While I do not use organics often it would be good if this was also covered. Possibly a thread on this site building
up a list of the things we need to be cautious about would save many much time trying to answer this question. I for one cannot afford teams of
lawyers to find out.
[Edited on 11-26-2010 by IrC]
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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Magpie
lab constructor
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I have long felt that you have 2 options for this kind of behavior by LE:
1) hire the best lawyer money can buy, if you have that kind of money. This might cost you your life savings.
2) petition the ACLU to help you. Although many people don't like this group I have noticed that they will stick up for a person's civil rights and
they have a lot of clout.
[Edited on 26-11-2010 by Magpie]
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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SelfStarter
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| Quote: Originally posted by entropy51 | I respectfully disagree, madscientist.
In this area, in those days, PCP was everywhere. It was more available than marijuana. Those types of atrocities were not uncommon. Neither were
ether explosions caused by manufacturers of PCP. The local branch of a major chemical supplier was closed down when they were implicated in the
supply of precursors.
As far as I know, PCP is rarely encountered here nowadays. I have not heard of a PCP related murder in probably over 10 years. Something certainly
had an effect. |
Entropy, your assertions about there being a rash of PCP related violence is ridiculous. Drugs don't make people violent. Drugs do not have that
capability.
I suggest you read this book and watch this video as they both come from an author who unlike you, has done a lot of RESEARCH on the subject.
http://reason.com/blog/2009/03/24/recently-at-reasontv-jacob...
http://www.amazon.com/Saying-Yes-Jacob-Sullum/dp/product-des...
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Sedit
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| Quote: Originally posted by SelfStarter |
Entropy, your assertions about there being a rash of PCP related violence is ridiculous. Drugs don't make people violent. Drugs do not have that
capability.
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...... I don't understand....
My only reply is BULLSHIT!!!
Drugs make people violent,
Drugs make people someone they are not,
Drugs turn people into something they don't want to be.
Drugs wreak havok on the society around them.......
This is comming from ME people. Its about as unbias as it gets because I love drugs.... in the right hands.
You pott heads are convincing yourselfs that drugs are safer then they really are and they are the type of people we hear about on the news shooting
up a shopping mall full of zombies....
Get it? One hit of PCP into you new age hippys brains and you would understand where im comming from, but instead go on about how its all good to
ingest a substance that an analog of what is pissed out by schizophrinics.... go ahead..... then tell me drugs are great...
G'damnit
[Edited on 27-11-2010 by Sedit]
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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IrC
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What Are the Effects of PCP?
From National Institute on Drug Abuse
PCP, developed in the 1950s as an intravenous surgical anesthetic, is classified as a dissociative anesthetic: Its sedative and anesthetic effects are
trance-like, and patients experience a feeling of being "out of body" and detached from their environment.
PCP was used in veterinary medicine but was never approved for human use because of problems that arose during clinical
studies, including delirium and extreme agitation experienced by patients emerging from anesthesia.
During the 1960s, PCP in pill form became widely abused, but the surge in illicit use receded rapidly as users became dissatisfied with the long delay
between taking the drug and feeling its effects, and with the unpredictable and often violent behavior associated with its
use.
Powdered PCP - known as "ozone," "rocket fuel," "love boat," "hog," "embalming fluid," or "superweed" - appeared in the 1970s. In powdered form, the
drug is sprinkled on marijuana, tobacco, or parsley, then smoked, and the onset of effects is rapid. Users sometimes ingest PCP by snorting the powder
or by swallowing it in tablet form. Normally a white crystalline powder, PCP is sometimes colored with water-soluble or alcohol-soluble dyes.
When snorted or smoked, PCP rapidly passes to the brain to disrupt the functioning of sites known as NMDA (N-methyl-D-aspartate) receptor complexes,
which are receptors for the neurotransmitter glutamate. Glutamate receptors play a major role in the perception of pain, in cognition - including
learning and memory - and in emotion. In the brain, PCP also alters the actions of dopamine, a neurotransmitter
responsible for the euphoria and "rush" associated with many abused drugs.
At low PCP doses (5 mg or less), physical effects include shallow, rapid breathing, increased blood pressure and heart rate, and elevated temperature.
Doses of 10 mg or more cause dangerous changes in blood pressure, heart rate, and respiration, often accompanied by nausea, blurred vision, dizziness,
and decreased awareness of pain.
Muscle contractions may cause uncoordinated movements and bizarre postures. When severe, the muscle contractions can result in bone fracture or in
kidney damage or failure as a consequence of muscle cells breaking down. Very high doses of PCP can cause convulsions, coma, hyperthermia, and death.
PCP's effects are unpredictable. Typically, they are felt within minutes of ingestion and last for several hours.
Some users report feeling the drug's effects for days. One drug-taking episode may produce feelings of detachment from reality, including distortions
of space, time, and body image; another may produce hallucinations, panic, and fear. Some
users report feelings of invulnerability and exaggerated strength. PCP users may become severely disoriented, violent, or suicidal.
Repeated use of PCP can result in addiction, and recent research suggests that repeated or prolonged use of PCP can cause withdrawal syndrome when
drug use is stopped. Symptoms such as memory loss and depression may persist for as long as a year after a chronic user stops taking PCP.
http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/lsd/f/lsd_faq05.htm
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2,430,000 results google search "pcp effects", every one of them saying the same thing. SelfStarter you, and everyone as ignorant of the facts as you,
are making me wretch at the thought you are all coming here claiming to be 'men of science'. Yes you know so much. Your brains are very big. Your
facts come from some 'researcher' you claim has credibility? What about the two million four hundred thirty thousand pages on the internet all saying
the same damn thing! Namely you are wrong.
OK I'll bite. Forget 'research'. What about experience? I saw violence and death from PCP and drugs like it in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 2K's,
and on until the end of flesh humans on earth. How many people have you seen die from drugs? Any? I HAVE! Not just once either.
Why don't you give up your membership here and go back to abovetopsecret where you belong and leave science to those who do not have oatmeal for
brains.
Go talk to every police officer in every town for a hundred miles around you. Ask and get their real life experience stories about the violence they
have had to deal with most especially from PCP, far more than nearly every other drug known. In fact likely more than every other drug they have had
to deal with.
Is anyone ever going back on topic and answering poor Garry's question or not? Or mine concerning inorganic's?
[Edited on 11-27-2010 by IrC]
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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