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not_important
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Hauling most minerals up out of the gravitational well of Mars, combined with the energy cost of getting there and back, just isn't going to be very
economic. More ROI in figuring out how to do asteroid mining, as there's no gravity well to deal with.
Finding life on another planet, OTOH, has major scientific implications.
[Edited on 22-6-2008 by not_important]
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Rosco Bodine
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBzeR0uFHaY&feature=relat...
| Quote: | Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
What does that video have to do with anything? |
Hmmm....maybe H2O ? She is singing a psalm, speaking
of how the wind is the breath of God and the rain is His tears
and all that other beautiful poetic "gushing" kind of stuff
You must not be much of a romantic.
She is something of a spirit in flight too,
landing once in awhile to sing us a song,
so it seemed appropriate to me anyway.
Here's another sample from another admirer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wC9vq68yDQ&feature=relat...
| Quote: |
I mean, she's pretty, but just a little big-boned  |
She's fourteen years old there
and still carrying a lot of baby fat
But it looks like it is all developing nicely to me anyway.
Of course I like 'em with plenty of meat on their bones...
none of that anorexic stuff has quite the same "presence"
if you follow what I mean
I mean, it's like when when you buy a bowl of ice cream,
you do want to feel like you are not being jipped,
but are getting your money's worth....right?
Rubens would have turned somersaults to get this girl displayed on canvas
Big Beautiful Women, megababes, yeah that's the way I like 'em too
| Quote: |
IMO, I think it would be more worth everyone's time and money to look for valuable minerals on Mars instead of life. Water is valuable outside of
Earth. But now what? |
The water is essential for the electrolytic and photosynthetic processes
which would also be essential for colonization.
So availability of water is the first hurdle in making the
long jump to a colonization of Mars. Water is also a good indicator
for the possible discovery of extraterrestrial life.
| Quote: |
We should be looking for sources of Pt, Pd, Au, Cu, Ni etc. so someday it will be profitable to mine these elements in space. All it will take for
space exploration to explode is for it to be profitable. I think if we found a good chunk of Pt or Au it would most certainly be economically viable
to invest in the technology needed for space-mining missions. |
Minerals are defintely out there and especially certain asteroids might be interesting, but that would seem to be much further into the future than
colonization. You seem to be thinking in terms of what can be gotten out there on another world and then brought back to earth....instead of thinking
more correctly in terms of what might be the greater potential for usage right there on location in development of another world. The shipping cost
would be pretty steep for things brought all the way back to earth from space.
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MagicJigPipe
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Exactly and that could be justified if there is profit. If the value of the minerals is so high that someone can actually MAKE money by going to get
them. I realize it's expensive but perhaps with greater/cheaper technology...
IMO, the only way we are going to advance faster than a snail in space exploration is if there is money to be made. Remember, that was the motivating
force for most acclomplishments on Earth for thousands of years. Nobody except for scientists would want to spend millions just to get information.
But say you spent a billion dollars mining 500,000 tons of Pt and Au in space and you could sell it for 2 billion.
Now, if only we had the technology to push that much mass up to at least 1000 miles per hour or so without having to carry hundreds of tons of
propellant...
Anyway, I suppose my basic point is that we need to make space profitable or else we'll keep moving along like we have been (IMO, it's been pretty
slow compared to other technological advances since 1969 or so).
[Edited on 6-22-2008 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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JohnWW
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Besides the cost of overcoming the gravity of Mars to get minerals back to Earth, what about the royalties that the Martians would charge?
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Twospoons
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
Now, if only we had the technology to push that much mass up to at least 1000 miles per hour or so without having to carry hundreds of tons of
propellant...
[Edited on 6-22-2008 by MagicJigPipe] |
Its called a rail-gun, and would probably work rather nicely on Mars, given the low gravity and thin atmosphere. Even better from the ateroid belt.
Stopping the stuff at the other end could be tricky, unless someone is clever enough to figure out how to sling a ton of rock into Earth orbit .. from
Mars 
Helicopter: "helico" -> spiral, "pter" -> with wings
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chemoleo
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Not only that,the asteroids often are metallic, composed of Ni, Fe, and other metals. There should be a much higher concentration of precious metals
there than in ores.
Speaking of which, Mars will not have the same quantity of minerals and ores, as earth does.
The reason is that geological processes (plate tectonics, water, erosion, oxygen catastropy (achieved by living organisms), and immense quantity of
time where all these could act) never happened on the same scale on Mars. Check this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ore_genesis
You'll be therefore hard-pressed to find significant concentrations of ores or mineral that are economically feasible to refine.
Better stick to the asteroids!
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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MagicJigPipe
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I'm sorry. I didn't mean to give the impression that I was saying we could find lots of ore on Mars. I'm just saying we know that Earth isn't the
only place with these elements. And certainly not the only place in the solar system.
I wonder what concentration of PGMs is average in asteroids along the belt? IMO, we would have to start with those because of their low weight to
cost ratio.
Twospoons, that would need to be a MASSIVE rail gun! Not to mention the electricity that would need to be generated. I suppose after it was built
and operational it would be much cheaper. But do we REALLY have the technology to undertake something like that? Or a better question, the money?
Probably not, unless there was capital being invested. See, it all comes back to the buck!
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Twospoons
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Oh, I agree it would be massive, and expensive to build, but not beyond current technology. Once in place it could sit there for years using solar
electrictiy to fire high value metal slugs back home. Mining space is never going to be cheap, but when there is no minable Pt, Ir, Ru etc left on
Earth that asteroid belt is going to look mighty attractive.
Back when oil was 50 bucks a barrel, bioethanol was a laughable idea only being promoted by die-hard treehuggers. Now it doesn't seem quite so silly
...
[Edited on 25-6-2008 by Twospoons]
Helicopter: "helico" -> spiral, "pter" -> with wings
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not_important
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MagicJigPipe...
I wonder what concentration of PGMs is average in asteroids along the belt? IMO, we would have to start with those because of their low weight to
cost ratio.
... |
For C-Type asteroids, a part per million on down to a hundred parts per billion. See the table at
http://www.tricitiesnet.com/donsastronomy/asteroidtable.html
which is slightly different than the numbers I have, but not that different considering the limited sampling we've got.
I kind of like the concept of tossing tonne-sized chunks of dense metal in the direction of Earth with the assumption that there are no software bugs
or hardware glitches. Hopefully salvage rights will be allowed to those living near the impact points, over claims by those who set up the mining
operation.
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Maya
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<<
Its called a rail-gun, and would probably work rather nicely on Mars, given the low gravity and thin atmosphere. Even better from the ateroid belt.
Stopping the stuff at the other end could be tricky, unless someone is clever enough to figure out how to sling a ton of rock into Earth orbit .. from
Mars >>>
You're kidding me right?
You would wreck every single earth satellite doing that
\"Prefiero ser yo extranjero en otras patrias, a serlo en la mia\"
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Maya
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<<< I was 3.5 miles from the pad when Apollo 11 took off, that was in the press area 1.5 miles inside the danger zone. The blasts pulsed
like a heartbeat, and pushed me backwards from three and a half miles, like a hand planted in my chest. Unforgettable. I was 19 at the time
>>>
Thats cool , I was about 10 miles away at the time and it was a huge thunderous blast! Yeah , I was only six tho.
\"Prefiero ser yo extranjero en otras patrias, a serlo en la mia\"
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MagicJigPipe
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| Quote: |
You would wreck every single earth satellite doing that
|
How so? It is my belief that because of the vastness of space that even uncalculated projectiles would only hit a satellite very rarely.
Rocks fly into Earth's atmosphere all the time. When's the last time we lost a satellite to one?
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Twospoons
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You could even use the moon as a giant catchers mitt! Makes the long range shot a little less critical.
Helicopter: "helico" -> spiral, "pter" -> with wings
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MagicJigPipe
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Well, if we can launch an object to Mars and have it land within a few square miles of a target, I see no reason why we couldn't launch rocks to Earth
and have them land in Death Valley, Siberia, or the Sahara Desert for example. Especially with the technology/knowledge we will have once the time
comes.
Is this becoming too OT?
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Maya
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ummm,
do we really want another form of pollution?
http://www.space.com/news/ap_060120_space_junk.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_debris
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/06/science/space/06orbi.html
\"Prefiero ser yo extranjero en otras patrias, a serlo en la mia\"
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Rosco Bodine
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Phoenix may be end of mission 
Extreme cold and lowered light levels on the
photo-voltaics have depleted the batteries
and the lander has stopped responding to
ground commands
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/10_29_pr.php
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/main/index.html
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JohnWW
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That is because winter is setting in, in the high northern latitude (well above the Martian Arctic Circle) on Mars where Phoenix landed. Assuming that
it survives the winter, it will be almost a year before spring arrives, and there will again be enough light to run it.
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Rosco Bodine
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There is still one remaining still operating Mars rover Opportunity
http://marsrover.nasa.gov/mission/status_opportunityAll.html...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piZrbTRbyLM Opportunity: 5 years on Mars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY5dEKWxnWQ Opportunity: 8 years on Mars
Mars rover Curiosity due to arrive August 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_9BYSDtwRc Animation for earlier mission
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4boyXQuUIw Animation for Curiosity mission different final powered descent soft landing scheme
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KLxmGLZQSY Curiosity landing scheme detail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUzvGGqvZLA Curiosity launch November 26, 2011
stay tuned
[Edited on 10-3-2012 by Rosco Bodine]
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neptunium
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Stunning!!!!!!
i remember when the Vickings touch down and the first analysis responses we,ve got from them.
everybody was holding their breaths!
[Edited on 10-3-2012 by neptunium]
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Rosco Bodine
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Look Ma ......no solar panels What makes her go ?
Curiosity is a plutonium decay thermoelectric generator powered probe .....
and that should help to ward off those cold Martian winter chills
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JOPW8aAcgE New Mars Rover Powered By Plutonium
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY_7d55vJko Clean Room Assembly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8p9YGovb_0 cumulative press release video
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Rosco Bodine
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A not well known detail about the Spirit and Opportunity spaceframes, is there's an interesting story about those particular choices of Mars rover
parts bearing an american flag as a makers mark for an alloy having special origin
September 08, 2011 JPL Press Release
Tributes to Terrorism Victims Are on Mars
Interplanetary Memorial to Victims of Sept. 11, 2001
The piece of metal with the American flag on it in this image of a NASA rover on Mars is made of aluminum recovered from the site of the World Trade
Center towers in the weeks after their destruction.
Image Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/Cornell University
In September 2001, Honeybee Robotics employees in lower Manhattan were building a pair of tools for grinding weathered rinds off rocks on Mars, so
that scientific instruments on NASA's Mars Exploration Rovers Spirit and Opportunity could inspect the rocks' interiors.
That month's attack on the twin towers of the World Trade Center, less than a mile away, shook the lives of the employees and millions of others.
Work on the rock abrasion tools needed to meet a tight schedule to allow thorough testing before launch dates governed by the motions of the planets.
The people building the tools could not spend much time helping at shelters or in other ways to cope with the life-changing tragedy of Sept. 11.
However, they did find a special way to pay tribute to the thousands of victims who perished in the attack.
An aluminum cuff serving as a cable shield on each of the rock abrasion tools on Mars was made from aluminum recovered from the destroyed World Trade
Center towers. The metal bears the image of an American flag and fills a renewed purpose as part of solar system exploration.
Honeybee Robotics collaborated with the New York mayor's office; a metal-working shop in Round Rock, Texas; NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, Calif.; and the rover missions' science leader, Steve Squyres, at Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y.
"It's gratifying knowing that a piece of the World Trade Center is up there on Mars. That shield on Mars, to me, contrasts the destructive nature of
the attackers with the ingenuity and hopeful attitude of Americans," said Stephen Gorevan, Honeybee founder and chairman, and a member of the Mars
rover science team.
On the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, Gorevan was six blocks from the World Trade Center, riding his bicycle to work, when he heard an airliner hit the
first tower. "Mostly, what comes back to me even today is the sound of the engines before the first plane struck the tower. Just before crashing into
the tower, I could hear the engines being revved up as if those behind the controls wanted to ensure the maximum destruction. I stopped and stared for
a few minutes and realized I felt totally helpless, and I left the scene and went to my office nearby, where my colleagues told me a second plane had
struck. We watched the rest of the sad events of that day from the roof of our facility."
At Honeybee's building on Elizabeth Street, as in the rest of the area, normal activities were put on hold for days, and the smell from the collapse
of the towers persisted for weeks.
Steve Kondos, who was at the time a JPL engineer working closely with the Honeybee team, came up with the suggestion for including something on the
rovers as an interplanetary memorial. JPL was building the rovers and managing the project.
To carry out the idea, an early hurdle was acquiring an appropriate piece of material from the World Trade Center site. Through Gorevan's contacts, a
parcel was delivered to Honeybee Robotics from the mayor's office on Dec. 1, 2001, with a twisted plate of aluminum inside and a note: "Here is debris
from Tower 1 and Tower 2."
Tom Myrick, an engineer at Honeybee, saw the possibility of machining the aluminum into the cable shields for the rock abrasion tools. He
hand-delivered the material to the machine shop in Texas that was working on other components of the tools. When the shields were back in New York, he
affixed an image of the American flag on each.
The Mars Exploration Rover Spirit was launched from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, Fla., on June 10, 2003. Opportunity's launch followed on July 7.
Both rovers landed the following January and completed their three-month prime missions in April 2004. Nobody on the rover team or at Honeybee spoke
publicly about the source of the aluminum on the cable shields until later that year.
"It was meant to be a quiet tribute," Gorevan told a New York Times reporter writing a November 2004 story about Manhattan's participation in the
rover missions. "Enough time has passed. We want the families to know."
Since landing on the Red Planet, both rovers have made important discoveries about wet environments on ancient Mars that may have been favorable for
supporting microbial life. Spirit ended communications in March 2010. Opportunity is still active, and researchers plan to use its rock abrasion tool
on selected targets around a large crater that the rover reached last month.
One day, both rovers will be silent. In the cold, dry environments where they have worked on Mars, the onboard memorials to victims of the Sept. 11
attack could remain in good condition for millions of years.
The Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif., a division of the California Institute of Technology, manages the Mars Exploration Rovers for NASA.
http://marsrover.nasa.gov/newsroom/pressreleases/20110908a.h...
[Edited on 11-3-2012 by Rosco Bodine]
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phlogiston
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| Quote: | How so? It is my belief that because of the vastness of space that even uncalculated projectiles would only hit a satellite very rarely.
Rocks fly into Earth's atmosphere all the time. When's the last time we lost a satellite to one? |
This is becoming a serious risk, actually. The problem is that one collision produces multiple fragments, each of which can collide with another
object, and so on, eventually resulting in completely unusuable orbits. This is already becoming a problem with the current density of satelites and
debris, and some believe a critical density for this problem has already been reached.
In 1996 the french Cerise satelite was lost due to a collision with debris. In 1993, a 1 cm hole was found in an antenna of the hubble space
telescope. The space shuttle has been hit multiple times, at least once producing a pit in one of the windows.
The debris travels so fast, even small pieces are dangerous. Much like a bullet. This, for instance, is the radiator from the space shuttle after a
flight:
-----
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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MrHomeScientist
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Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston  | | This is becoming a serious risk, actually. The problem is that one collision produces multiple fragments, each of which can collide with another
object, and so on, eventually resulting in completely unusuable orbits. This is already becoming a problem with the current density of satelites and
debris, and some believe a critical density for this problem has already been reached. |
I was just reading about this the other day, actually. It's called the Kessler Syndrome, pretty interesting read.
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Rosco Bodine
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80 days to touchdown for Curiosity Mars mission
Curiosity is go for Mars landing
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/msl/index.html
http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/
Also of interest is the scheduled launch early morning Saturday May 19, 2012 of a SpaceX commercial spacecraft for an orbital flyby of the
International Space Station to flight test maneuvering and docking capability.
http://www.spacex.com/
http://www.nasa.gov/offices/c3po/partners/spacex/index.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhoX5XcqnfA Falcon 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj1qwDxw9nk Falcon 9 flight 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3u0IIQj6FY
<iframe sandbox width="622" height="350" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/H3u0IIQj6FY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
[Edited on 18-5-2012 by Rosco Bodine]
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Rosco Bodine
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Here is the HD video feed for the launch
http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/ustream.html
<iframe sandbox width="633" height="390" src="http://www.ustream.tv/embed/6540154" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" style="border: 0px none
transparent;"> </iframe>
<br /><a href="http://www.ustream.tv/everywhere" style="padding: 2px 0px 4px; width: 400px; background: #ffffff; display: block; color:
#000000; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10px; text-decoration: underline; text-align: center;" target="_blank">Live video from your Android device
on Ustream</a>
[Edited on 19-5-2012 by Rosco Bodine]
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