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Magpie
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Quote: Originally posted by chemrox  | | The stuff called fusel oil is made up of higher boiling alcohols. Higher boiling but not so high boiling they don't co-distill with the ethanol/water
but a lot of them drop out just after the first bend in the copper. This is where the thumper collects them. I'm going to make one with glass and try
it with different columns and straight still configurations. |
Fusel oil, I understand, is mostly amyl alcohol. I've been trying to figure out how to synthesize this for years. Yeah, I know you can buy it. But
what's the fun in that.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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deltaH
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Do you mean tert-amyl alcohol (2-methyl-2-butanol, aka 2M2B)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tert-Amyl_alcohol
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DJF90
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No, he means n-amyl alcohol, aka 1-pentanol/pentan-1-ol.
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deltaH
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Ah thanks, but the 2M2B sounds interesting though. Sorry for the tangent, it shall stop here.
[Edited on 20-2-2015 by deltaH]
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | | Quote: Originally posted by chemrox | | The stuff called fusel oil is made up of higher boiling alcohols. Higher boiling but not so high boiling they don't co-distill with the ethanol/water
but a lot of them drop out just after the first bend in the copper. This is where the thumper collects them. I'm going to make one with glass and try
it with different columns and straight still configurations. |
Fusel oil, I understand, is mostly amyl alcohol. I've been trying to figure out how to synthesize this for years. Yeah, I know you can buy it. But
what's the fun in that. |
You're going to have to look this up but I believe the fuesil's come from the spent or dead yeast cells.
My grandfather had told me to never use too much yeast because you get more "tails", and that's where the Fueslis come in. These keytones, and
alcohols have a higher BP than EtOH, and near that of water.
[Edited on 20-2-2015 by Zombie]
[Edited on 20-2-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Luke
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Interesting, maybe thats why turbo yeast gives so many fusels, even when doing a 10% wash (it shouldnt stress the yeast)
| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie | | Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | | Quote: Originally posted by chemrox | | The stuff called fusel oil is made up of higher boiling alcohols. Higher boiling but not so high boiling they don't co-distill with the ethanol/water
but a lot of them drop out just after the first bend in the copper. This is where the thumper collects them. I'm going to make one with glass and try
it with different columns and straight still configurations. |
Fusel oil, I understand, is mostly amyl alcohol. I've been trying to figure out how to synthesize this for years. Yeah, I know you can buy it. But
what's the fun in that. |
You're going to have to look this up but I believe the fuesil's come from the spent or dead yeast cells.
My grandfather had told me to never use too much yeast because you get more "tails", and that's where the Fueslis come in. Theses keytones, and
alcohols have a higher BP than EtOH, and near that of water.
[Edited on 20-2-2015 by Zombie] |
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blogfast25
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Here's a Billy getting ready to boil an academic librul in a pot with some failed likker:
http://ww.homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6...
And this one, despite the beautiful construction, seems to have over engineered his thumpy a little bit:
http://ww.homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6...
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deltaH
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Yes... that coil around the thumper seems totally redundant.
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blogfast25
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In another variant I saw, that kind of thumper with an external coil, was then immersed in a (cold) water bath. He called it a 'self-tuning thumper'
but provided no elucidation re. the meaning of that term. He's of course only delaying things unnecessarily.
[Edited on 20-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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deltaH
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
In another variant I saw, that kind of thumper with an external coil, was then immersed in a (cold) water bath. He called it a 'self-tuning thumper'
but provided no elucidation re. the meaning of that term. He's of course only delaying things unnecessarily.
[Edited on 20-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
Yes I also just read about that... seems silly to me because the beauty of the thumper lies in its simplicity, if you're willing to make an improved
design then I'd rather build a refluxed tray.
Also noticed that they seem to have the problem of not being able to run their stills at high boil up, complaining that when they did, it resulted in
a 'hot liquor', I assume that means more crap in the end product... but that just sounds like bad thumper design, specifically a mass transfer issue
(inadequate diffuser) leading to vapour by-passing the thumper in effect and so negating the benefit of that stage.
[Edited on 20-2-2015 by deltaH]
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Luke | Interesting, maybe thats why turbo yeast gives so many fusels, even when doing a 10% wash (it shouldnt stress the yeast)
| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie | | Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | | Quote: Originally posted by chemrox | | The stuff called fusel oil is made up of higher boiling alcohols. Higher boiling but not so high boiling they don't co-distill with the ethanol/water
but a lot of them drop out just after the first bend in the copper. This is where the thumper collects them. I'm going to make one with glass and try
it with different columns and straight still configurations. |
Fusel oil, I understand, is mostly amyl alcohol. I've been trying to figure out how to synthesize this for years. Yeah, I know you can buy it. But
what's the fun in that. |
You're going to have to look this up but I believe the fuesil's come from the spent or dead yeast cells.
My grandfather had told me to never use too much yeast because you get more "tails", and that's where the Fueslis come in. Theses keytones, and
alcohols have a higher BP than EtOH, and near that of water.
[Edited on 20-2-2015 by Zombie] |
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The active ingredient in "Turbos" is Ammonium Nitrate. Some of them also contain Magnesium Sulfate.
Basically they (Turbo yeasts) are Miracle Grow. without the coloring agents.
Where or if they have anything to do with Fuesils, I am not smart enough to know.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie |
The active ingredient in "Turbos" is Ammonium Nitrate. Some of them also contain Magnesium Sulfate.
Basically they (Turbo yeasts) are Miracle Grow. without the coloring agents.
Where or if they have anything to do with Fuesils, I am not smart enough to know. |
Actually the ammonium nitrate acts as yeast nutrient (food). Not sure about MgSO4.
Re. fusel chemistry, I think it's still fairly poorly understood. The same for heads chemistry: methanol and ketones. There are some decent academic
papers on both though.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | | Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
In another variant I saw, that kind of thumper with an external coil, was then immersed in a (cold) water bath. He called it a 'self-tuning thumper'
but provided no elucidation re. the meaning of that term. He's of course only delaying things unnecessarily.
[Edited on 20-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
Yes I also just read about that... seems silly to me because the beauty of the thumper lies in its simplicity, if you're willing to make an improved
design then I'd rather build a refluxed tray.
Also noticed that they seem to have the problem of not being able to run their stills at high boil up, complaining that when they did, it resulted in
a 'hot liquor', I assume that means more crap in the end product... but that just sounds like bad thumper design, specifically a mass transfer issue
(inadequate diffuser) leading to vapour by-passing the thumper in effect and so negating the benefit of that stage.
[Edited on 20-2-2015 by deltaH] |
This is actually a very real issue. It is why I stressed the output rate soooooo many times.
If you run too hot you introduce more water vapor (low abv), and more of the tails or Fuesil oils.
It absolutely negates the use of the thumper in the first place.
The rules of operation are very strict, and within a narrow window of error.
Hot Liquor refers to the Amyl Alch, and its "bite". It's very much like Isopropyl on the palate.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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Completely second that. A controlled refluxer/tray would be far more efficient and demonstrably effective.
Even simpler: a decent fractionating column. Easy peasy and highly effective.
[Edited on 20-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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The MgSO4 is a ph buffer. That is all it is there for.
Some mashes (grain ferments) tend to get acidic, Some lean towards Vinegar infection, and that is unhealthy for the yeast.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
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blogfast25
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This guy here is a bit like watching paint dry but he knows what he's doing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IquAY0AB_tw
Beautiful craftsmanship...
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blogfast25
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Impossible: a salt of an electropositive metal (magnesium) and a strong acid (H2SO4) cannot have buffering properties.
It's 'pH', BTW, not 'ph'.
[Edited on 20-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
Completely second that. A controlled refluxer/tray would be far more efficient and demonstrably effective.
Even simpler: a decent fractionating column. Easy peasy and highly effective.
[Edited on 20-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
That's where all this comes full circle back to the nature of the builders, and operators of thumpers.
For the most part they were back woods Tennessee hill folk.
The most they understood was basic trading math, and how to fit a lid on a bucket.
If you think about the origin, it's actually quite a leap in evolution for them.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
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aga
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As i understand it so far, an 'improved' design would be to simply isolate the boiling pot when most of the EtOH has distilled over, and move the fire
over to the Thumper.
Patent Pending: Aga's Flames on Wheels Distillation Technique.
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blogfast25
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Get a license and open a restaurant: 'Aga's Flames on Wheels Likker and Burgers'. Can't go wrong.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
Impossible: a salt of an electropositive metal (magnesium) and a strong acid (H2SO4) cannot have buffering properties.
It's 'pH', BTW, not 'ph'.
[Edited on 20-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
Then in that case you cracked your very first "Moonshine Myth."
It's widely heralded in the "shine" community that the Epsom salts play a role in buffering as well as an added nutrient for the yeast.
Re: Nutrients - Epson Salts
Postby olddog » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:06 pm
Making a good wash is a bit like baking a cake, you need food for the yeast: sugar, Neutrients to keep the yeast healthy, and a healthy enviroment for
the yeast to multiply and ferment: the PH level. The acid: lemon juice etc, and the alkaline: epson salts, baking soda etc, provide the correct
enviroment for the yeast to live in (PH 4.5 - 5). Like baking a cake, ingredients like all bran, gerber, cracked corn (UJSSM) can be varied to bake a
different cake as long as the basics stay the same.
OD
OLD DOG LEARNING NEW TRICKS ......
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olddog
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http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1300...
[Edited on 20-2-2015 by Zombie]
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hyfalcon
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If you want an improved design WITHOUT a thumper. Check this out.
http://www.hillbillystills.com/category_s/94.htm
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Magpie
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | As i understand it so far, an 'improved' design would be to simply isolate the boiling pot when most of the EtOH has distilled over, and move the fire
over to the Thumper.
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A moonshiner doesn't stop with just one batch. That scenario would be inefficient in the long run as there's the next batch to consider, IMO.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Zombie
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Here's a trivia bit for you.
The fella "Old Dog" in the above post was the first guy to venture into Plated Columns for the hobby level distiller.
I'm not sure of the year but it was somewhere near 2009. Before him, and his work there were no plated columns at the home level.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
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blogfast25
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Zombie:
The problem is common: conflation of terms.
That some washes need buffering is possible but non-chemists use that term very, very loosely.
A buffer is comprised of a weak acid plus the salt of that weak acid. Best knowm/most used is probably the acetate buffer: a mixture of acetic acid
(vinegar, if you prefer) and sodium acetate. It has a precise pH and resists additions of small amounts of acid or base quite well, without change in
pH.
Mg citrate plus citric acid would be a buffer but whether it would work in mashes/washes I do not know. Citrate buffers are very common.
And buffers are very common in biological systems (like cells) that operate only well in narrow pH windows.
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