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Zombie
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Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  | People should consider the following thought experiment.
A thumper is full of almost pure EtOH and at equilibrium temperature. The vapour coming off the still is almost 100 % water, at about 100 C and is led
through the thumper.
What will happen? What will be the mole fraction EtOH coming off the the thumper (vapour) be? |
Point is you NEVER allow the boiler to reach 100* C.
This is where the reason for shutting down at 20% ABV comes from. Otherwise you are correct yet it does not apply here.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | Nearly pure ethanol comes off if well mixed. As to the how, if you zoomed in on a single bubble of water vapour, water diffuses from the bubble into
the alcohol and alcohol diffuses from the liquid into the bubble. When the water vapour enters the liquid at the edge of the bubble, it releases it's
enthalpy of vaporisation and this is in turn absorbed by the evaporating ethanol. This continuous until equilibrium is reached (but never quite gets
there). But that's not to say that ethanol vapour doesn't also diffuse back into the liquid as well, it is a dynamic system and molecules are
constantly zooting too and fro, all the time, the rate of ethanol evaporating is simply large than it condensing and vice versa for water.
[Edited on 17-2-2015 by deltaH] |
If you just said that an ethanol vapor bubble will strip more ethanol from the miscible liquid... Yes. That is how a fractional column works, and that
is the reason the thumper feed tube is below the liquid level. The bubbles strip more ethanol.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | The heat is supplied by the condensing of the incoming vapor from the still (latent heat). Efficient condensing would be promoted by having a high
depth of submergence of the still vapor outlet pipe.
Enrichment of the thumper outlet vapor is based on the vapor-liquid equilibrium (VLE) curve for the system ethanol-water. Enrichment is due to the
high relative volatility of alcohol to water in the region of interest, ie, around 20wt% alcohol of the liquid in the thumper. See Zombie's and
deltaH's VLE curves.
This has been stated above several times. I'm just trying to say it more succinctly.
In regard to calling people genitals, Conan O'Brien said "what kind of a dick would call a person a vagina?" 
[Edited on 17-2-2015 by Magpie] |
Agreed!
I didn't see the vid yet tho. Coming back for it.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | The heat of mixing of ethanol and water is exothermic by - 777 J/mol (Wiki), and all mixing is exoentropic.
So both ΔH and ΔG of mixing are negative (< 0).
To separate, that energy must be expended.
The idea that steam coming off the still provides that energy is fallacious. You need to look at the entire system: unheated thumpers simply introduce
more heat losses. Insulated ones act like steam pipes.
And heated ones are a little more complicated than one might think. Primary still vapour would have to condensed to just below its BP. Once the
thumper is, say, half full, a secondary distillation would be carried out by heating to BP and condensing the thumper vapours. But that wouldn't be a
real thumper...
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You are still ignoreing the fact that once both pots are at the same opperating temp... As the boiler looses Alch. IT's temp rises, and the heat
required to boil the Alch. rich thumper lowers.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | | Just saw near the bottom that they offer a two thumpers in series version, was wondering about that. I guess the enrichment effect of a second thumper
is probably much smaller than the first? |
Yes, you can run up to three thumpers in series if insulated, and reach very near azeotrope.
Thermal losses make it require more energy however than a simple 2 run distillation. Not many fellas will run multiple thumpers UNLESS they are
running FREE wood fired stills.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
It doesn't have to be. Heat is provided by the boiler. The column itself, in a ideal scenario, operates adiabatically (ΔH = 0). Things constantly
condense and re-volatise. At the end you get your energy back in the condenser(s), MINUS what was expended for the separation.
My point with regards of Magpie's Latent Heat is precisely that: condensation occurs and latent heat is released but evaporation also occurs and
consumes latent heat.
[Edited on 17-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
Your first sentence explained why a thump works.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
What's also funny is that his refluxer certainly works (despite the pompous name) but does anyone believe his little pickle jar would work? It's
certainly hopelessly under-dimensioned, looking at the size of the pot. That thing would fill up in no time! |
You are right.
These are built / sold as mis conceptions.
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Magpie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie |
You are still ignoreing the fact that once both pots are at the same opperating temp... As the boiler looses Alch. IT's temp rises, and the heat
required to boil the Alch. rich thumper lowers. |
Agreed, and this may be key to the operation. We really should be doing enthalpy balances on the still and thumper using realistic examples. We
haven't done that yet.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | | Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
What's also funny is that his refluxer certainly works (despite the pompous name) but does anyone believe his little pickle jar would work? It's
certainly hopelessly under-dimensioned, looking at the size of the pot. That thing would fill up in no time! |
I was under the impression that the liquid level in the thumper doesn't keep increasing post start-up, no?
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Mostly correct.
The amount of water vapor coming in is carefully controlled by the heat applied, and the amount of Alch. going out keeps the level fairly constant.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | | Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | I was under the impression that the liquid level in the thumper doesn't keep increasing post start-up, no?
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But Delta, HOW CAN THAT POSSIBLY BE?? An uncooled pot like that MUST act in part as a condenser, BY DEFINITION, almost! |
In part, but the heat losses to the air is small, it doesn't have a large surface area and it's convective cooling which is also not large, compared
to a water cooled condenser that is.
I read http://homedistiller.org/equip/designs/thumper to try to answer this issue of the size of the thumper, they make the point that you don't want it
too small because the extra alcohol has to come from the volume of what was originally placed there and as it's depleted, it works worse and worse
until it has little effect. That makes sense to me, so yes, that jar does look a little small, but then again, it is recommended to use distillate
tails to charge it, which would help to have more alcohol in a smaller volume of course.
There's probably an optimal size born out of experience with these things. I'd say it's probably made as large as the tails generated from
distillation from a certain sized rig. |
1/2 the size of the boiler.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by deltaH |
In part, but the heat losses to the air is small, it doesn't have a large surface area and it's convective cooling which is also not large, compared
to a water cooled condenser that is.
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Totally subjective. What if you use a fairly large copper thumper on a cold night in the Appalachian Mountains? 
The point stands: the thumper MUST fill up, slowly or quickly is fairly irrelevant.
| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH |
There's probably an optimal size born out of experience with these things. I'd say it's probably made as large as the tails generated from
distillation from a certain sized rig. |
Look at the designs on the Tinkerwebs: there's no real discernable pattern.
[Edited on 17-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
You are correct. This is why Moonshining" has a season.
Some run year round but they either insulate or run in small confined (dangerous) spaces.
Thermal losses ARE important. Even a simple pot still will not run in extreme cold. It all condensates in the cap
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blogfast25
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And because we're contrarians in this part of the world, I now have to go to bed, stomach full of lobster! 
'Hostilities' to resume tomorrow.
Night night. Don't let the thumpers bite.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | | Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | That makes sense to me, so yes, that jar does look a little small, but then again, it is recommended to use distillate tails to charge it, which would
help to have more alcohol in a smaller volume of course.
|
Why not put 100 % proof in it? Then claim you're 'doubling'? Could work but not what we're discussing here.
Yep, turn it into a proper refluxer, again: not what we're talking about. Not the thumpy people either...
[Edited on 17-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
The thing is, as I understand it, there's no need for a proper reflux for making 'likker' since it's not that difficult an enrichment based on the
phase equilibrium discussed earlier. So really, this seems to be a very simple solution that gets the job done. If so, then hats off 
The only advantage from more trays and employing reflux is you can increase the alcohol recovered because employing a reflux ratio gives you that
extra degree of freedom, but that comes at the cost of extra energy consumed to run the boiler, so really that 'ain't free neither'.
Apologies... I feel the need to start speaking 'billy. |
We have "New Billy" meatins evury Tuusday.
Bring a jar!
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | delta H:
Of course it's not free, whatever you do. No contest.
Secondary argument (already made to be fair):
If this little trick works, how come you don't read about it in engineering textbooks, journals or even half-decent internet sources (you know, the
ones that might feel the need to substantiate things with experimental data)?
I posit it to you that it's for the same reason no decent person would publish anything substantiating the 'HOH' crapola: it DOESN'T WORK!
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We've already covered that.
It's not efficient enough to be heralded as a "breakthru" technology. But it does it's job at allowing you to up the proof of your "hootch" in one
run.
More proof = more $$$'s. That's the only reason for this.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
Lily-livered librul academics are 'fraid they's gonna beat up by them billys with their baseball bats, for publishing their Appalachian secrets, bro.
What goes on in Appalachia stays in Appalachia!
[Edited on 17-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
I probably should have kept this to myself. Them Billies do mean business now.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | In reference to the submergence of the vapor pipe from the still: I don't know how much the typical moonshiner submerged the outlet but it would
elevate the bp of the wash in the pot above that obtained using atmospheric pressure. 2.3 ft of water submergence is equivalent to 1 psi.
Zombie is likely taking one much needed nap, or he had to go to work, or both. He has been giving his all for science.
[Edited on 17-2-2015 by Magpie] |
You're right on all counts Magpie.
I still haven't made dinner, and it's not looking likely.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
From that link:
| Quote: | | Alcohol boils as at lower temperature (78.3° C) to water 100° C. So when the pot still is heated, alcoholic vapour will be released before water is,
it passes into the low wine retort, a second copper vessel which contains an alcoholic mix of low wines and water. The hot vapour
passing through, boils the liquid in the retort, releasing its most volatile components. This vapour is now more concentrated in flavour and is
carried through to the high wines retort, where the process is repeated. The vapour is now high strength and is condensed. By
adjusting the composition of liquids in the low and high wines retorts, a distiller can create a range of different flavours. |
The 'thumpers' are already charged with alcohol.
Eatsdrinksandsleeps, science 101 indeed!
Oh, yes: 'chestofbooks', Zzzzzzz....
Is that all you've got?
[Edited on 17-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
We are doing exactly the same thing. 10% Alch. in both.
Low wines are the actual boiler left overs, and actually contain only 2 3% alch. far less than the boiler in that case.
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by Zombie]
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen | | deltaH: The last link shows a pipe that I interpret as the return flow, making it a full stage. The first one is harder to tell, but there is
something there as well. |
Those returns are only drains into the boiler to empty the doublers AFTER a run is complete. They have NO bearing on this.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen | | It's the same principle really. Whether the reflux is controlled by an external condenser and divider or by partial condensation in the stage itself
is irrelevant for the principle. It acts like a cooled fractionating column, not unlike what we would set up in the lab. |
Sort of. You have to factor in the increasing temp of the vapor in, and the reduced boiling points of the products in the thump.
It is a combo of what you said, and what I said that makes it work
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | To my simple mind it seems like this :-
Start Condition: Boiling pot & Thumper pot contain e.g 50w% EtOH, equal volumes
Begin heating Boiling pot.
EtOH starts leaving Boiling pot, and instantly condenses in the cooler Thumper pot liquid.
This increases the Thumper pot volume, temperature and w% of EtOH.
Eventually the temperature in the Thumper pot is sufficient for the EtOH in there to begin leaving, to be recovered in the condenser.
The main difference is that the now boiling Thumper liquid has a higher w% of EtOH than the original Boiling pot liquid.
Would anyone here have any experience in Ethanol/water distillation where the w% of the stock liquid has a marked impact on the w% of the distillate
in a simple distillation ?
Would a higher concentration of ethanol:water impact in any significant way on the distillate concentration ? |
Yes Mr. Aga.
I posted the graph of the BP of the liquids many pages ago.
EVERYONE keeps ignoring this ONE base fact that makes this work!!!
The BP is lower in the thumper, and always will be once Evap starts in the boiler.
The boiler temp. is ALWAYS higher in the boiler than needed in the thump. This process get stronger as the action continues.
ALWAYS!
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by aga | Oh.
Start with more, get more, just Less % difference.
So if the starting condition was the same in the Boiling pot and the Thumper, then the increased EtOH concentration in the Thumper pot *before* it
starts boiling Will give a higher EtOH concentration in the end product, as it will be starting from a higher EtOH conc.
If so, it should end up the case that the Thumper output will have a higher w% than a straight non-Thumping distillation. |
According to Thumper 101, yes. Not according to moi.
Or Fulmen.
My point is simply that that would work if you condensed the primary still pot vapours into the thumper, then externally heated thumpy. That
would be 2 distillations.
Not by blowing water-rich primary vapours through it though...
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
100% incorrect.
You are blowing ethanol rich vapor at a higher temp than required to vaporize more eth.
The WHOLE idea is to leave the water out of it, and compare the shifting boiling points.
The light bulb moment is near.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | Not quite. The vapor out of the thumper is richer in ethanol than the liquid in the thumper because of the relative volatility of ethanol to water.
The thumper is acting as a vapor/liquid equilibrium stage and the increase in ethanol can be determined from the VLE diagram.
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You keep forgetting that you're blowing EtOH impoverished primary still vapour into the enriched thumper liquid.
It's not like you're adding dry heat. |
Carrying MUCH more heat than required to vaporize the thumper product.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | Erm, after all the EtOH has left the primary pot, it's all in the Thumper pot.
Thumper liquid will now be Hot.
Next the Water vapor will start entering Thumper, driving the distillation in Thumper, and changing the EtOH:Water conc as well.
Sounds like a race against time/conc.
The First distillate from the Thumper should therefore be of a Higher w% than expected from a straight distillation, with the conc steadily decreasing
as the heating steam, and the evaporating EtOH reduces the Thumper EtOH conc.
Maybe the 'Great Secret' is that the first distillate out of the Thumper is the 'Good Stuff'.
Squaring the circle, the Laws of Thermodynamics are not violated at all.
Over the entire distillation, the total volume of EtOH collected will be exactly the same Thumper vs Straight distillation.
Exactly When you collect your distillate dictates your EtOH concentration when using a Thumper.
Glad we got that sorted out without all that tedious 'actually doing anything'.
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by aga] |
Close. Add in the fact that the first distillate collected is of higher proof, and shut down both runs at the same point ie 20%, and the overall proof
of the run IS higher. That is the only goal.
In real world practice this is approx. 25% increase.
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by Zombie]
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | Not quite. The vapor out of the thumper is richer in ethanol than the liquid in the thumper because of the relative volatility of ethanol to water.
The thumper is acting as a vapor/liquid equilibrium stage and the increase in ethanol can be determined from the VLE diagram.
|
You keep forgetting that you're blowing EtOH impoverished primary still vapour into the enriched thumper liquid.
It's not like you're adding dry heat. |
The thumper will always contain more alch. until there is nothing left. That is why the boiler always contains more heat energy than required to boil
the thumper.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | | Aga, I think you have the right idea. Moonshining is a batch process and the boys will shut the still down at a certain point to maximize the product
to their specifications. |
The overwhelming majority of your boys don't actually measure anything. 'Proof' at start and end perhaps, nothing more... |
Now who is speculating...
A billy is VERY well aware of what is happening during the run
You went to school to learn how to use a slide rule, and these boys spent their lives reading bubbles in a jar.
They know more about this than you sir. Respectfully said.
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