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PHILOU Zrealone
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Quote: Originally posted by Motherload  | | H3PO4 cannot be distilled past 85% .... Anymore heating and it turns into meta phosphoric acid HPO3 which is a solid. |
HPO3 (or (-O-P(O)(OH)-)n) is related to P2O5 because it contains anhydric link P-O-P between each P atom.
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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PHILOU Zrealone
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| Quote: Originally posted by arkoma | Is the specific gravity of liquids affected by altitude?
edit---oops, wrong quick questions thread!! (I did UTFSE, but didn't realize there were two quick questions threads, energetics ain't my thing)
[Edited on 6-14-2014 by arkoma] |
Yes depression (altitude) induces an expension of the liquids; so specific gravity will be less than at level "0". Some volatile liquids near the sea
may even turn into gases in altitude.
Water boils arround 80°C instead of 100°C up there.
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Dany
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It is the first time that i hear that the density of liquid change with pressure...the volume of liquid will increase with increasing temperature (so
density drops). water is an exception because it has a negative thermal expansion coefficient, it will contract upon heating...what will change with
altitude is the boiling temperature of the liquid because the ambient pressure decreases with altitude. However, the bulk density will remain
unchanged.
These claims PHILOU(density of liquid drops with decreasing the pressure) need to be backed up with a new theorem...
Dany.
[Edited on 17-6-2014 by Dany]
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Rosco Bodine
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http://rmbel.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/water.density.j...
http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/explan2.html
[Edited on 17-6-2014 by Rosco Bodine]
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PHILOU Zrealone
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| Quote: Originally posted by Dany | It is the first time that i hear that the density of liquid change with pressure...the volume of liquid will increase with increasing temperature (so
density drops). water is an exception because it has a negative thermal expansion coefficient, it will contract upon heating...what will change with
altitude is the boiling temperature of the liquid because the ambient pressure decreases with altitude. However, the bulk density will remain
unchanged.
These claims PHILOU(density of liquid drops with decreasing the pressure) need to be backed up with a new theorem...
Dany.
[Edited on 17-6-2014 by Dany] |
Dany,
I don't know what is your education level, experience, work or fields of specialities... but I think your studies are far away and maybe you didn't
got physical chemistry and thermodynamic?
Maybe you are not familiar with the isothermic p(V) curves the diagram of gas-liquid near the critical point explaining the perfect gas laws and the
variation with real gas showing distillation plates (during liquefaction of gas, the pressure remains constant). I'll put you a picture.
Water has also a positive thermal expansion coefficient...it only display a singularity between 4 and 0°C!At ambiant pressure, between 4 and over
4000°C it dillates; between -270 and 0°C also ice dillates!
If liquids were uncompressible, why would sound travel through?
[Edited on 18-6-2014 by PHILOU Zrealone]
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Dany
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PHILOU my friend, i didn't tell you that liquids are incompressible. liquids are compressible, even solid are compressible but to a much lesser
extent. The propagation of sound in liquid compresses and decompress successively the liquid, however the compression is infinitesimally small to make
a density variation in liquid (or solids). However, under high dynamic shock wave liquid and solid will be compressed to a smaller volume. this is
obvious from the unreacted Hugoniot diagram (the P-V diagram). This phenomena is observed under several GPa of dynamic pressure. For example liquid
TNT has a density of ρ= 1.473 g/cm3 at ambient pressure. A shock wave entering the liquid with an amplitude of P=10.855 GPa (approx. 109
kbar) will compress the liquid TNT to a density of 2.259 g/cm3 [1]. of course the P-V diagram for the liquid TNT is called the unreacted
liquid TNT, so no detonation is observed (the density of 2.259 g/cm3 do not correspond to the density at the Chapman-Jouguet point because
as is already told, it is the unreacted Hugoniot). Your example of density change between sea level and the mountain peak is meaningless. Btw, you are
telling me that at ambient pressure the water will dilate between 4 and over 4000°C, the question: is water still a liquid at these temperature 
Reference
[1] LASL SHOCK HUGONIOT DATA, LOS ALAMOS SERIES ON DYNAMIC MATERIAL PROPERTIES.
[Edited on 18-6-2014 by Dany]
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arkoma
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Quick question:
Eloctrocell bumping 5volts, max amps with MgCl2 electrolyte. Mg(ClO3)2 expected product? NO Mg(OH)2 evident.
"We believe the knowledge and cultural heritage of mankind should be accessible to all people around the world, regardless of their wealth, social
status, nationality, citizenship, etc" z-lib
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jock88
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Try this
http://oxidizing.typhoonguitars.com/chlorate/mag_chlorate.ht...
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arkoma
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Thanx, jock88! I came up on a bunch of Mg Chloride yesterday (ice melt) and just HATE not seeing my cell do SOMETHING LOL.
"We believe the knowledge and cultural heritage of mankind should be accessible to all people around the world, regardless of their wealth, social
status, nationality, citizenship, etc" z-lib
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Stortulling
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Testing of EM's
Hi
I started with EM's again, but have moved away from no mans land and has therefore gained a new problem. Sound! How can I best test the EM's
in a good scientific manner and keep the volume as low as possible. It will be a little expensive if I should ruin a bucket for each
detonator I'll test. I do not have any water / lake within acceptable distance apart from the sea. It is too much traffic on the sea in my area so it
is excluded. Testing of larger charges such as shape charge, the sound will become a big problem.
What can I do?
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Turner
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Do your tests in heavy thunder/rain storm.
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NeonPulse
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If th have an area where you want to test maybe you could look into hiring a post hole borer machine and do testing in there. These machines can dig
nice deep perfectly round holes and a few of them placed close to eachother and linked up by a shovel would make an ideal test site for smaller
charges muffling the doing to a level it may not even be noticed. The problem of cave ins and retrieving of your target could pose problems though..
tests for detonators could be done in a smaller hole filled with sand-saving your buckets. Otherwise the storms/heavy rain is the only other option.
Or pick a day for all your tests and drive out to where nobody will hear and blast away.
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SirViking
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How Crystal Surface Area and Geometry affect Explosive Qualities
To what extent will the recrystallization processes affect explosive materials such as PETN. I have conducted various experiments, altering variables
such as the water to acetone/PETN ratio,as well as temperature and the rate at which water is introduced to the solution.
For example, by lowering the temperature of the acetone/PETN solution and the water to just above 0 C prior to the introduction of water to the
solution, I have found crystals to be formed with very high surface area.
I am curious as to what other processes you guys have used to recrystallize energetic materials, and what effect the crystal shape, surface area, and
geometry had on any tests you conducted.
If you come upon a fork in the road, take it.
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Thanatops1s
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Yes, I tried searching but still have a quick question. Unlike say organic peroxides, if someone had some well washed and totally acid-free and
recrystallized ETN, it there any risk with it sitting on its own in a sub-gram quantity(say 750mg tops)? Would maybe having it wet be better(I assume
most likely)?
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Stortulling
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ETN synth.
Hi again ..
I wonder if there is a synthesis of ETN without sulfuric acid? I have phosphorus pentoxide ( P2O5 ), and wonder
if it can be used as a substitute for SA.?
Thanks for the suggestions on the testing of EM's, it appears that it is best to build a mini bunker which is about 1.5x1.5x1.5 meters into a hillside
some distance away from buildings and trails.
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VladimirLem
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| Quote: Originally posted by Stortulling | Hi again ..
I wonder if there is a synthesis of ETN without sulfuric acid? I have phosphorus pentoxide ( P2O5 ), and wonder
if it can be used as a substitute for SA.? |
it will, im pretty sure
but be careful...i have no expierince with P2O5 but it seems to be very aggressive to water (like contained in HNO3)...
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Stortulling
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| Quote: Originally posted by VladimirLem | | Quote: Originally posted by Stortulling | Hi again ..
I wonder if there is a synthesis of ETN without sulfuric acid? I have phosphorus pentoxide ( P2O5 ), and wonder
if it can be used as a substitute for SA.? |
it will, im pretty sure
but be careful...i have no expierince with P2O5 but it seems to be very aggressive to water (like contained in HNO3)...
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That was my "guess", but I have not done any synth. myselfe with P2O5 yet. I guess that it might be possible with
Ac2O allso, or am i wrong? I've not read up on that kind of synth either, but from what i understand it should be possible.. I haven't
found any synth on ETN this way, probably due to that H2SO4 is the "simple" way.. But since it is hard to get SA where i live (
if you don't count used battery acid) other synth's are interesting to look at. Can someone point me in the right direction please. (Refs or
literature)
Thanks
[Edited on 4-7-2014 by Stortulling]
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Motherload
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It seems like such a waste of P2O5. It's impossible for me to buy it here in Canada.
I cannot see any reasons why it wouldn't work.
Someone here used 70% HNO3 and P2O5 for RDX synth.
[Edited on 4-7-2014 by Motherload]
"Chance favours the prepared mind"
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PHILOU Zrealone
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In principe erythritol ca be halogenated to 1,2,3,4-tetrachlorobutane or 1,2,3,4-tetrabromobutane.
The later compounds can be reacted with excess saturated AgNO3 in aceton or methanol (not ethanol because of the risk of formation of silver
fulminate).
This test is usually used for the identification of organo-halogenoalcanes.
Primary alcohols reacts faster than secondary ones!
HOCH2-CHOH-CHOH-CH2OH + 4 HX ==ZnX2/heat==> XCH2-CHX-CHX-CH2X + 4H2O
(X being Cl or Br)
XCH2-CHX-CHX-CH2X + 4 AgONO2 --> O2NOCH2-CHONO2-CHONO2-CH2ONO2 + 4 AgX (s)
The AgX is a precipitate that can be decomposed by light for recovery of the silver and recycling with HNO3; the halogen can also be recovered.
2 AgX(s) -light-> 2 Ag(s) + X2 (g)
The adaptation of this procedure to iodo compounds is not possible because geminal iodocompounds tends to spontaneously deiodinate and produce
alcenes...
ICH2-CHI-CH2I ==> ICH2-CH=CH2 + I2
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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aldofad
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Is PETN recrystallization mandatory?
Hello world,
Is PETN recrystallization a mandatory step?
The batch will be used in a couple of days after preparation.
Thanks in advance
Aldo
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VladimirLem
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| Quote: Originally posted by aldofad | Hello world,
Is PETN recrystallization a mandatory step?
The batch will be used in a couple of days after preparation.
Thanks in advance
Aldo |
if you want to use it the next days there will be no problem if it is neutral (acid washed away)...i had some small unrecr. amount for years with no
visible negative reaction to the product (~18C, dark storage)
if you want a high quality product (for shaped charge or so) it may be better to recrystilize it...
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aldofad
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Thanks for replying with such a good answer
Aldo
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NeonPulse
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The recrystallization step is pretty important imoh. It gives a nice clean product of a slightly higher density and will eliminate any undue risk to
yourself just in case you do need to store it. Its not entirely needed but it is good practice. I think that if you went to the trouble of making PETN
why not finish it properly. It won't take long and the time spent is worth it.you may not even notice a different between the re and non
recrystallized products power wise but the handling and loading properties do differ a bit. I have just started using PETN and it is a brilliant
explosive which deserves that extra bit of attention
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aldofad
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| Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse | | The recrystallization step is pretty important imoh. It gives a nice clean product of a slightly higher density and will eliminate any undue risk to
yourself just in case you do need to store it. Its not entirely needed but it is good practice. I think that if you went to the trouble of making PETN
why not finish it properly. It won't take long and the time spent is worth it.you may not even notice a different between the re and non
recrystallized products power wise but the handling and loading properties do differ a bit. I have just started using PETN and it is a brilliant
explosive which deserves that extra bit of attention |
I'm now waiting for PETN to dry after nitration and washing. Thanks for your opinion. I'll go through recrystallization so.
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Motherload
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If you used mixed acids then I would definitely recrystalize.
My recrystalized product has been odour free for almost 2 years now along with my ETN.
"Chance favours the prepared mind"
"Fuck It !! We'll do it live !!"
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