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underground
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Have you neutrilized it ? I had the same results with hmtd but after the acid removed with carbonate and washed again, it was much more better.
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KesterDraconis
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That is probably it. Since I used the 6ml I make in my batches the day they are finished I didn't think it would be necessary, but thinking on it now
that would probably help a lot.
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underground
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NedsHead
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How you are containing the MEKP while attempting to detonate it could be the answer to all your problems. What is your exact procedure in detail?
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KesterDraconis
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I take the MEKP and contain it in a small straw wrapped in aluminum foil and crimped at one end. A black powder fuse is inserted in the other end and
then that end is crimped as well. I then wrap it in a piece of duct tape. I tried once with just MEKP, and then with MEKP soaked up in nitrocellulose.
Both times I just got deflagarations. Out of four times trying to get a drop to ignite and explode over a candle flame (the drop is wrapped in
aluminum foil of course) I only got it to explode once.
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Hawkguy
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Maybe your problem is the MEKP is contaminated with MEK and water. Can't you mix it with water to remove MEK, collect, and dry with anhydrous salts?
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Bot0nist
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Leaving raw MEKP in an open container and in a cool dry place allows both the more volatile MEK and water to evaporate quite well. Even so, it is hard
to get it to preform well, even when dry.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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KesterDraconis
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Perhaps, I will try neutralizing it first however. I do not like leaving EM around under any circumstances however, I and I am cautious about drying
it as you both have suggested, since that would mean an extended amount of time (a day or two), with it laying around.
(I use almost all energetic materials the day I make them at the site I make them, MEKP stretches that limit since I do it the day after I make it)
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Hawkguy
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Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  | | Leaving raw MEKP in an open container and in a cool dry place allows both the more volatile MEK and water to evaporate quite well. Even so, it is hard
to get it to preform well, even when dry. |
About the difficulty; technically, that's not a BAD thing
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KesterDraconis
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Which, I will add, is precisely why I am using this primary.
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Bot0nist
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An inconsistent and poorly effective primary is not, IMO, a safety feature. Consistent reliability and even backup initiators are a safety measure in
their own right. This keeps people from having to approach and manipulate, or remove a secondary charge when it fails to work. Not quite the same as,
but akin to approaching a dangerous firework after the fuse seems to burn out at its base.
I'm sure organic peroxides can be used as makeshift, albeit dangerous and unpredictable initiators, but they are poorly suited to this task though,
compared to the plethora of superior primaries that are within the realm of possibility for the hobbiest. The fact that they are rather poor at
consistently initiating unless used in relatively larger amounts, and or with very sensitive secondary materials is just one of the lessor troubles
they present.
Also, MEKP being a very sensitive liquid explosive almost surely presents even another level of difficulty and danger for a variety of
practical reasons.
I have in the past experimented with this compound, but if you want my opinion, and one that I'm quite sure other more experienced members share, it
is that MEKP, and other organic peroxides hold little to no use other than as novelty or curiosity.
Yes, they are very simply made and the needed reagents are available to most anyone who wants them, but I think their sensitivity, unpredictability,
and lack of efficacy as an initiator makes them a poor choice to contemplate, regardless of their convenience.
[Edited on 21-6-2015 by Bot0nist]
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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KesterDraconis
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Neither Hawkguy nor I listed the qualities of this primary being inconsistent or poorly effective as safety features, in fact, we didn't even say
either of those things regarding it in a general sense (My question is about my MEKP that I am having trouble with, not everyone and all MEKP). So I
don't understand why you mentioning those qualities as not being safety features, nobody thought they were.
What we did say is that the difficulty in getting the primary to detonate (e.g. "its not extremely sensitive", not "its unreliable") is a safety
feature in the sense that there is far less chance of accidentally setting it off and losing a finger or two, which I am sure is a far worse problem
in terms of accidents than manipulating secondary devices, which I don't even see the point of. I mean, and maybe I am simply being a fool myself in
this regard since I am not very experienced, but why would you even approach a failed device unless you definitively had to (e.g. you are EOD and
don't have a robot)? Destroy it from a distance by some means for goodness sake, I wouldn't think to go and fiddle around with one.
I am curious though, what would you suggest that I use as a primary? Considering of course the availability of materials I have and my experience are
not very high.
[Edited on 21-6-2015 by KesterDraconis]
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Bot0nist
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I see, and may have misunderstood, since IIRC, organic peroxides and devices employing them are notoriously sensitive and prone to accidental and
unexpected detonation. I also am pretty sure there is legit documentation that compares their sensitivities to various stimuli is available.
A common fallacy with these materials seems to be that one can be lulled into complacency and false security after several first hand experiences
indicate that they are not overly sensitive or unpredictable. Organic peroxides have a long and full track record of accidents. The simple fact that
even during the shortages and desperation of wartime, they were only briefly considered and quickly dismissed of having any practical value.
As far as a good primary is concerned, almost any are superior to peroxides for a variety of reasons. Each has its own pros and cons of course.
Mercury fulminate, lead azide, basic lead picrate, silver acetylide DS, and other are all not unreasonably difficult. DDNP, and azo-clathrates seem
to be excellent, but more difficult.
I meant no offense if I came off as.terse or scolding. I was only trying offer what I could from my experiences and from all I've gleaned on the
subject reading and discussing in my few years on the forum. By all means, keep experimenting, have fun, and stay safe.
Best of luck,
Bot.
[Edited on 21-6-2015 by Bot0nist]
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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NedsHead
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I think Hawkguy's right, your MEKP May still be saturated with MEK/water and your problem might be solved by thoroughly neutralizing, washing and
drying.
It's odd to me that people are having trouble initiating their MEKP reliably as I have found it to be TOO sensitive to flame and shock, although I did
once test sensitivity of a fresh batch without proper drying, absorbed into paper towel and all I observed was mild popping, fizzing and smoking.
Another thing to note is I have never tested straight MEKP, only always absorbed into cellulose, paper towel or sawdust, all detonated easily and
reliably with shock, open flame and electric igniter.
Have you tested shock sensitivity?
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KesterDraconis
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Don't worry, you didn't offend me Bot0nist, and honestly if I need scolding then go ahead and do so. I won't deny that I am an ignorant eighteen year
old who still has much to learn.
I've been considering mercury fulminate actually. Primarily because I do have the breathing apparatus to keep me safe and I understand the process for
the synth, I simply need the mercury.
Ned, I have only his my MEKP with a hammer when its absorbed in a paper towel. Then it went off somewhat easily (easier than the nitroglycerin I
tested with it, which was to give me a sort of reference material). However, lighting one of these towels only results in a violent deflagaration (it
is quite flammable), rather than a detonation. I will probably try again tomorrow, as I will once more have access to my testing site, however I am
considering simply abandoning it for all the trouble it is, and following Bot0nists advice. (besides this, I have some interest in fulminates, which
I've not yet synthesized)
[Edited on 21-6-2015 by KesterDraconis]
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NedsHead
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I think that's a wise decision KesterDraconis, there are more reliable, safer options out there that are also more challenging and rewarding to
synthesize than MEKP.
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Akira990
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Ammonium nitrate + MEKP solution
I guess we all know many types of ANFO (ammonium nitrate + fuel oil) , i've been making ANFO with diesel as fuel oil. I know about ammonium nitrate +
nitromethan (or ethan) ANNM and i guess you can combine AN with anything flammable to make some explosive. I recently found some MEKP solution, it is
from Turkey so not much information but i think it is 60% solution. I can only guess dimethylphthalate is used as solution for MEKP so what i am
thinking maybe i can use it as substitute for diesel in ANFO mixture.. I am thinking to make some changes and use 10% of this MEKP solution with AN
insted of regular 95% / 5% ANFO.. Anyone tried something like this ?
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Bot0nist
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Not sure about commercial MEKP solutions for use in ANFO, but members have made improvised "dynamite" by soaking dry and finely ground nitrate salts
(ammonium, potassium) in homemade MEKP. I can't recall what proportions were used to achieve detonation via fuse, as if it were a primary, or
initiation with a primary as if it were a secondary. The search engine may yield more information on this.
I have no experiance with commercial MEKP solutions, but I would be extremely cautious trying to sensitize ammonium nitrate with it for use as a
blasting agent, knowing the reactivity and unpredictability of pure MEKP. Many other fuels can and have been used with ammonium nitrate, all of which
have a history of use and supporting data.
[Edited on 23-8-2015 by Bot0nist]
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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Akira990
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Bot0nist, thank you for your answer and help. I am not trying to sensitize AN i am just trying to make ANFO mixture which is more poverful than
original (AN + diesel)
I know ANNM (nitromethan or ethan) is more sensitive than regular ANFO with diesel and also produce more poverful detonation but nitromethan or
nitroethan is not something you can find easily and cheap in my country. I have tried to synthesize nitroethane from sodium ethyl sulfate but it
proves to be very difficult and not worthy so i am searching for alternatives. I also know i can add aluminium powder to regular ANFO but i am
currently looking for best option as fuel for ANFO, when i say best i mean easy to obtain, not too expensive and better results than original AN
diesel mixtures..
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PHILOU Zrealone
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Nitroaromatic fuels are also good options:
Nitrobenzene, DNB, TNB
Nitrotoluens, DNT, TNT
Nitronaphtalenes, DNN, TNN, TeNN
...
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Akira990
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TNT, yea thats good option for fuel i can probably try to synthesize but in that case i would go straight for RDX..
I am looking for something that is easily obtainable and can be used as fuel oil in mixture with AN and one more thing to be much effective than
regular diesel. I would probably go for nitromethane or nitroethane and Al so end product would be ANNMAl but that staff is hard to get in my country
and even if i get it i would be on drug manufacturer list, i will try MEKP 60% solution it cant be worse than regular diesel i only hope it prove to
be much better something like ANNM..
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Praxichys
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The mixture with MEKP might perform worse than diesel fuel.
From what I have gathered, the MEKP is diluted with various phthalate esters and methyl ethyl ketone. Diesel fuel is just a hydrocarbon with C-H
bonds, which rearrange to CO2 and H2O in an explosion with an oxidizer. The esters and ketones in MEKP already have C-O and C=O bonds, which will
reduce the total energy output. MEKP may make the mixture more sensitive though. Also, the density of diesel is ~0.75g/cc and the MEKP mix is
~1.12g/cc, so there may be some help there.
100% MEKP and AN are very powerful and surprisingly brisant:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=20#pid...
http://www.axson-na.com/MSDSs/MSDS%20-%20MEKP%20Liquid%20Har...
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Akira990
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That is why i asked here, before i try it myself and waste AN and other materials on this. I have just one little correction 60% MEKP is diluted with
dimethylphthalate, there is no methyl ethyl ketone just methyl ethyl ketone peroxide and dimethylphthalate.
I am also thinking if there is good way to obtain 90%+ methyl ethyl ketone peroxide from this solution ?
dimethylphthalate boiling point is ~280 C and MEKP flash point is just 82 C so that way is not possible. Melting point of dimethylphthalate is 2 C and
MEKP between -5 and -10 C..
So if i put this solution to 0 C dimethylphthalate should freeze and MEKP stay liquid ?
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Praxichys
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Thanks for the clarification. I have posted some images so others can visualize the players in this game.
MEKP:  Dimethyl phthalate:
Thinking out loud, you might be able to run an acid/base extraction if you could acid hydrolyze the phthalate in water without destroying the MEKP. It
seems possible in theory but may not work at all in practice.
Also, I think you might be confusing flash point with autoignition temperature. Flash point is the temperature when the liquid produces enough vapor
above it to be ignitable with an open flame. The autoignition point is the temperature where something bursts into flames by itself. Personally,
however, I would never heat MEKP past even room temperature.
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Bert
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Google is your friend...
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=20&...
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Bert
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24-8-2015 at 12:46 |
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