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blogfast25
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Quote: Originally posted by aga  | Oh.
Start with more, get more, just Less % difference.
So if the starting condition was the same in the Boiling pot and the Thumper, then the increased EtOH concentration in the Thumper pot *before* it
starts boiling Will give a higher EtOH concentration in the end product, as it will be starting from a higher EtOH conc.
If so, it should end up the case that the Thumper output will have a higher w% than a straight non-Thumping distillation. |
According to Thumper 101, yes. Not according to moi. 
Or Fulmen.
My point is simply that that would work if you condensed the primary still pot vapours into the thumper, then externally heated thumpy. That
would be 2 distillations.
Not by blowing water-rich primary vapours through it though...
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Magpie
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga |
So if the starting condition was the same in the Boiling pot and the Thumper, then the increased EtOH concentration in the Thumper pot *before* it
starts boiling Will give a higher EtOH concentration in the end product, as it will be starting from a higher EtOH conc.
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Not quite. The vapor out of the thumper is richer in ethanol than the liquid in the thumper because of the relative volatility of ethanol to water.
The thumper is acting as a vapor/liquid equilibrium stage and the increase in ethanol can be determined from the VLE diagram.
Example:
In a perfect equilibrium stage liquid at its bubble-point (at boiling) that is 0.2 mole fraction in ethanol (x-axis) will produce a vapor that is
~0.53 mole fraction in ethanol (y-axis). You can determine this from the VLE diagram I posted in my last post (which I copied from deltaH's post).
This is how a fractionation column works.
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by Magpie]
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by Magpie]
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | Not quite. The vapor out of the thumper is richer in ethanol than the liquid in the thumper because of the relative volatility of ethanol to water.
The thumper is acting as a vapor/liquid equilibrium stage and the increase in ethanol can be determined from the VLE diagram.
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You keep forgetting that you're blowing EtOH impoverished primary still vapour into the enriched thumper liquid.
It's not like you're adding dry heat.
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aga
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Erm, after all the EtOH has left the primary pot, it's all in the Thumper pot.
Thumper liquid will now be Hot.
Next the Water vapor will start entering Thumper, driving the distillation in Thumper, and changing the EtOH:Water conc as well.
Sounds like a race against time/conc.
The First distillate from the Thumper should therefore be of a Higher w% than expected from a straight distillation, with the conc steadily decreasing
as the heating steam, and the evaporating EtOH reduces the Thumper EtOH conc.
Maybe the 'Great Secret' is that the first distillate out of the Thumper is the 'Good Stuff'.
Squaring the circle, the Laws of Thermodynamics are not violated at all.
Over the entire distillation, the total volume of EtOH collected will be exactly the same Thumper vs Straight distillation.
Exactly When you collect your distillate dictates your EtOH concentration when using a Thumper.
Glad we got that sorted out without all that tedious 'actually doing anything'.
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by aga]
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Magpie
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Aga, I think you have the right idea. Moonshining is a batch process and the boys will shut the still down at a certain point to maximize the product
to their specifications.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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aga
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More than that : they developed a Time Function, where they collect distillates at differing Times into the distillations.
Each Timed portion represents a different EtOH concentration.
Heads, Flow and Tails were the billyclue.
Yeehar !
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by aga]
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | | Aga, I think you have the right idea. Moonshining is a batch process and the boys will shut the still down at a certain point to maximize the product
to their specifications. |
The overwhelming majority of your boys don't actually measure anything. 'Proof' at start and end perhaps, nothing more...
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aga
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Someone mentioned that this could be solved with a can of beer.
I think i just did.
At the very least, the basis for a definitive experiment is now available.
Distillation, EtOH conc of distillate measured say every 10ml or so.
Distillation with Thumper, EtOH conc of distillate measured the same.
Results would show one way or the other what the Thumper does or does not do.
Get on with it !
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Magpie
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It depends on which part of the batch process you are in. In the latter part you are right and that is likely where the boys will shut down the
still.
In the beginning of the distillation the vapor from the pot will be richer in ethanol than the thumper liquid.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie |
In the beginning of the distillation the vapor from the pot will be richer in ethanol than the thumper liquid. |
How much richer?
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aga
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S'wot i just said, rehashed.
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aga
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OK.
Seems i just got Brilliant, and the fact is being ignored.
Praise, even Worship please, and lots of of it.
Anyway, enough Said, and 0 actually Done.
There's a possible explanation of Why moonshiners use a 'Thumper', and why they claim it to be a 'doubler' etc, and a way to answer the Original
Question.
Experiment.
The data will show whether my Genius Moment was such, or whether Thumper Theory is in fact Hogwash.
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blogfast25
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It seems to be the only way out of the quagmire. Let this not be another Vietnam.
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Magpie
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I'll get back to you on this (soon). Mrs Magpie just called me for supper. We're having steak flambe (just kidding).
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie |
I'll get back to you on this (soon). Mrs Magpie just called me for supper. We're having steak flambe (just kidding). |
Lobster Thermidor here. NOT kidding (?)
Give my regards to the lady.
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aga
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Thinking about it, if my drunken theory is right, the Levels of the distillation pot and the thumper are irrelevant : they need not be at the same
height at all.
A quick search on moonshine thumpers found a few images of 'stills where the thumper pot is suspended in the air, above the output of the 'still pot.
Heating of the Thumper should also be undesireable, as you'd want as much of the EtOH from the 'still pot to reach it, and condense in there before
Thumper starts boiling, which rules out thumper heating being desirable.
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Crowfjord
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How do you guys plan on measuring ethanol concentration in your experiments? Depending on how small of a scale you're working with, it might be too
little for a hydrometer.
I think I might join in on conducting an experiment. Maybe. I've been considering making some rum the past few weeks anyway.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Crowfjord | How do you guys plan on measuring ethanol concentration in your experiments? Depending on how small of a scale you're working with, it might be too
little for a hydrometer.
I think I might join in on conducting an experiment. Maybe. I've been considering making some rum the past few weeks anyway. |
We're looking into refractometry. Very small sample only needed. But we need to test that properly for accuracy and repeatability.
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aga
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That'd work better than titrations.
From experience, EtOH titrations on 100s of samples would take quite a while ...
Edit:
A quick look on ebay for 'alcohol refractometer' turns up many results, and very affordable too.
I think i'll get one.
The actual accuracy would not be too important, as it would be a Comparison of straight distilled w% vs thumper distilled w%.
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by aga]
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga |
The actual accuracy would not be too important, as it would be a Comparison of straight distilled w% vs thumper distilled w%.
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Correct. The absolute values are less important. Relative but statistically relevant numbers are far more important.
Absolute Values opens a can of worms like the use of Absolute Material Standards. Not easy. Big Science territory.
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: | | Pot / thumper as close together as possible. |
We may not be able to do that but we will insulate the vapour line from still to thumper.
| Quote: | | Both at same level (bases) |
We can do that but why? What does gravity have to do with anything?
| Quote: | | Flow rate of output is critical. Minimum product condensing water flow, and minimum heat required to maintain a broken stream into collection vessel.
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Slow distillation we can do. What does minimum condensing water flow have to do with anything? We don't want to LOSE any EtOH.
| Quote: | The outcome has no teams or bragging rights.
I have too much respect for all of you that are involved to make this a pissing contest. |
Pfff...
Question. Say 100 volume parts of 10 ABV feedstock. How much in the still, how much in the thumper at start of run?
Are we allowed to heat up thumper liquid at start, just to save a little time? Thumper heating will be switched off once it starts simmering. Heating
by still pot vapours then takes over.
I also note that many of these demand are COMPLETELY ignored by all thumper people on the tinkerwebs but anyway.
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Sorry, I got held up, making up for time lost yesterday.
I just wanted to catch up on the thread, and I'm still reading.
The first part. I think insulating will be ok. Keeping the vapor HOT is the key to how a thumper works. It is after-all the power source (hot vapor).
If it is NOT hot enough the result will be the thumper will fill, and not deliver product out so that will be obvious.
Second, I can't say that Grav. wil / wil not be an issue. I run my thump below the fluid level of the boiler, and for the sake of replicating what I
know to work, that is the basis.
The reason for minimum PC cooling is it is the only way to be sure the boiler is heated at the correct settings.
You can heat the boiler on the sun, and a pc can knock it down but you will be evaporating too much water, and thereby negating the reason for doing
this in the first place.
Minimum PC cooling to reduce vapor is a mandatory requirement in Whiskey making, and this IS what we are doing.
You will have a boiler / 1/2 size thumper. The boiler should be 3/4 full, and the thumper 1/2 full.
I will avoid answering all the speculative stuff, and only the Tech. stuff till I catch up on the thread.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by macckone | One important fact that is missed a lot here is that the vapor stream has a
higher heat content than the azeotrope. This isn't some miracle violation
of the laws of thermodynamics. A thumper is going to be less efficient than
a true plate but more efficient than a second distillation based on heat input.
Once the thumper reaches steady state it loses its effectiveness. |
This was the "free (+)" energy I refereed to in the beginning.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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Ok, welcome back.
No gripes except with that quote. We'll be using say a V (volume) pot still and a V/2 (half that volume) thumper. If the total feedstock was say A,
how should we allocate that over both? Example: 75 % in pot still, 25 % in thumper?
It'll be a small set up, probably 500 ml pot still, 250 ml thumper. Insulation on the primary vapour line, slow distillation.
Final distillate condensing will not interfere with anything, I guarantee you that.
Set up will be revealed before any distillations take place.
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | | Quote: Originally posted by macckone | To answer a couple of blogfast's questions. The usual ratio is 1:3 from the original link. Assuming
that the starting and final abv are the same for the pot and thumper that would give 33% enrichment.
note that is simple mass transfer and doesn't account for heat transfer. Starting off with a cold
thumper seems to make more sense thermodynamically. Initially the stream will condense in the
thumper producing a higher abv in the thumper. Then the stream will start to pass through with the
water condensing out and alcohol being absorbed into the vapor stream. Once it reaches steady
state, the amount of water condensed must equal the amount of alcohol evaporated at a heat value
level. Note this is lower than when the thumper is absorbing heat. If the thumper is losing heat
to the environment the enrichment could be greater but never more than the mass value. Hypothetically
the thumper could be alcohol depleted at the end of the run yielding a higher gain than 33%. |
My simulations showed that a cold thumper does no enriching, enrichment only starts from about 73C under my conditions where it peaks rapidly, then
decreases with increasing temperature. In really, the thumper would operate somewhere above 90C I would imagine and reach that pretty quickly. I
would't proof a distillate sample before the thumper gets hot and reaches pseudo steady state.
[Edited on 17-2-2015 by deltaH] |
This is exactly right. The thumper will follow the heat curve of the boiler, and that makes it imperative to maintain the product stream as the
indicator of power management.
Too little power, and the thumper fills.
Too much power, and you are spewing unwanted water vapor, thereby negating the purpose.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Magpie
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Thank you.
Lobster for breakfast! That's awesome. (You are 7-8 hours ahead of me (PST), right?)
---------------
Assuming the still is charged with a wash that is 10wt% ethanol (I'm sorry I just can't talk ABV), the mole fraction ethanol would be 0.042*. Now I
can use the VLE diagram. The vapor would be 0.33 mole fraction ethanol (56 wt% ethanol) per the diagram. So this would then be sparged into the
thumper. The thumper liquid would be at ambient temperature or a little warmer, depending on when the still was shut down at end of the previous
batch. If the minimum spec for alcohol off the system was 30wt% (0.14 mole fraction ethanol), then the thumper liquid mole fraction ethanol would be
~0.015 (4wt%) Heating of the liquid in the thumper would continue as well as building of ethanol concentration until the bubble point in the thumper
was reached. At this time vapor would start coming off the thumper. Just when all this would happen would be dependant on still charge volume,
residual temperature of the thumper, thumper liquid volume, product specifications, and likely other factors.
*convert 10wt% ethanol to mole fraction ethanol as follows:
mole fraction = (10/46)/[10/46 +90/18] = 0.22/(0.22 +5) =0.042
MW ethanol = 46; MW water = 18
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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