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Rosco Bodine
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Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate  | Could I please get some information on bismuth triazide I could only find a paragraph about it. For example I know that it forms complexs however I
haven't found out what it will Form a complex with.
I wonder if anyone has ever been brave (or stupid) enough to make polonium azide. |
The likely starting point for an attempted synthesis of Bismuth Azide would be to dissolve Bismuth Nitrate in a moderately strong solution of Mannitol
and react by a gradual addition of sodium azide. Alternatively a solution of Bismuth Citrate in Ammonium Hydroxide could be used for the Bismuth
value, but the basic solution would be more likely to precipiatate the basic azide. The first approach using the chelation by mannitol to form a
neutral solution of the soluble bismuth is a possibility as a best guess starting point. It may be that the bismuth azide is simply not stable and
doesn't form at all. PATR mentions a possible iodine complex of bismuth azide, so a concurrent drip of iodine solution might be the next step if the
normal or basic azide doesn't result from the mannitol chelated soluble neutral bismuth nitrate precursor solution on reaction with sodium azide.
This is an unknown and experimental procedure about which I am speculating so due caution should be used in any experiments for not knowing exactly
what to expect.
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bismuthate
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Thanks! That was very interesting I think I will try to synthesize it as soon as I get some sodium azide. Also bismuth has a tendencey to make
oxy-halogen compoung, so since the azide ion is pseudohalogen I wonder if there is an oxyazide.
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Dany
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Here's a paper in Angewandt chemie on the synthesis of 3 derivatives of bismuth azide. Be carefull Bi(N3)3 is shock
sensitive explosive. it detonate @ 154°C releasing a green cloud of smoke.
the second attachement is a paper in Inorganic chemistry journal on an alternative synthesis of Bi(N3)3 along with a
structural study on this compounds and it's solvate.
Dany.
Attachment: Binary Bismuth(III) Azides- Bi(N3)3 , [Bi(N3)4]−, and [Bi(N3)6]3−.pdf (373kB)
This file has been downloaded 1307 times
[Edited on 18-10-2013 by Dany]
Attachment: Solid State Structure of Bi(N3)3.pdf.pdf (1.9MB)
This file has been downloaded 898 times
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bismuthate
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Thank you I saw that paper but I couldn't get ascess. Thaks again I realy wanted to read that. Green smoke that sounds amazing.
P.S. I found that the same journal has many other azide articles I should subscribe.
[Edited on 18-10-2013 by bismuthate]
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Boffis
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Azides from secondary nitrosamines
Following Rosco's introduction the Staudinger patent posted above (original and translation) and Rosco suggestion (in a U2U) that this might work with
Nitroso-R-salt (C.T.M.T.N.A) I thought I would give it a try with various nitrosamines. The following notes are just provisional results and I will
report full experiment details when I have completed the work after Christmas.
With R-salt ammonia was released over about 6 hours of refluxing of the reactants in methanol but no precipitate of K azide occurred; only a brown
homogenous solution resulted which did not deposit crystals even after 24hrs in the fridge. I used potassium hydroxide as the base, it is soluble in
methanol but the azide should not be appreciably so (see data earlier in this post). After 6 hours I distilled off 70% of the original methanol and
neutralised the solution with 4M nitric acid to pH7; much precipitate formed but after washing with methanol the white solid proved to be KNO3: no
surprises there!
A little of the brown solution that was left was treated with lead acetate solution, a small amount of pale brown precipitate formed, it was weakly
energetic but the substance is clearly not Pb azide.
With dimethylamine the initial nitrosamine is water soluble so I extracted it with ether and removed the ether on a warm water bath and then proceeded
as before but using water as the solvent with the intention of ppt the azide with Pb acetate but again only a trace of weakly energetic salt
precipitated though a yellow oil formed on the surface that would not crystallise.
I have saved the products and will investigate them further when I have time.
I have yet to try the reaction as described by Staudinger with diphenyl nitrosamine.
An interesting thought concerns the fate of the of the liberated sym-triazine. Staudinger states that with diphenylnitrosamine the liberated
diphenylamine can be recovered and re-used. Is the liberated triazine from R-salt likewise stable enough to be recovered and how soluble is it in
methanol? The liberation of ammonia suggested that it maybe broken down to ammonia and formaldehyde. Another possible reaction is the simple reduction
of the nitroso moiety to an amine, but this reaction would liberate nitrogen and I found the liberated gas to be highly soluble in water (ammonia
could be smelt but I can't rule out the presence of formaldehyde but in the strongly alkaline solution the latter may be destroyed as fast as it is
formed).
So... the initial results don't look too promising but I haven't tried Staudinger original method yet.
[Edited on 17-11-2013 by Boffis]
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Rosco Bodine
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Urbanski reported the decomposition of R-salt by NaOH slowly in the cold and rapidly when heated, with formaldehyde, ammonia, and nitrogen produced.
Before ruling out this potential method it should be tested what is the result for Dinitrosopentamethylenetetramine with the methanolic hydrazine and
possibly in the alternative using calcium hydroxide as the base, seeking calcium azide as the intermediate product.
Dinitrosopentamethylenetetramine gives the same positive Liebermann's nitroso reaction test as does diphenylnitrosamine of the Staudinger patent, and
I'm not sure if R-salt does give the same positive reaction. I thought it did but I'll have to double check. I'm thinking the R-salt may be
sensitive to the high pH of the more caustic soluble alkali base and the dinitroso compound may have better stability and less degradation by calcium
hydroxide which would be a low soluble in the methanol, but would neutralize any free HN3 and gradually go into solution as the azide. The solution
could later be made moist with some H2O and tested for reaction with sodium bicarbonate solution added gradually which would precipitate insoluble Ca
carbonate as a byproduct of reaction with any Ca azide present, leaving NaN3 in solution. This would be detectable by evaporation or by precipitation
of insoluble azide spot test by copper, lead or silver.
I wouldn't heat the mixture to reflux or even above room temperature. Leaving it stirring would during the hoped for reaction time seem right. Also
it is of interest what may happen in an entirely aqueous reaction system.
I am thinking that more towards a neutral pH as would be true for the Hodgkinson reaction conditions may be required and that strongly basic
conditions may be more favorable for the decompsoition of the nitrosamine than favoring the reaction of the nitrosamine with hydrazine. A neutral
hydrazine salt as per Hodgkinson might be required as
opposed to free hydrazine.
[Edited on 18-11-2013 by Rosco Bodine]
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Boffis
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@ Rosco; Yes I was aware that a high pH tends to decompose the nitrosamine and I may try the reaction with just hydrazine and a nitrosamine and then
add the alkali later as another alternative. The initial intermediate should be a triazine multi-triazene which is then decomposed by the alkali to an
azide salt and the free base. In the case of 1,3,5 trinitroso triazine I think the free base would decompose to formaldehyde and ammonia; the former
being decomposed under strongly alkaline conditions (hence the brown colour of the reaction mixture and small of ammonia). The reaction mixture is
moist because my hydrazine hydrate is only 38% hydrazine or about 65% HZ hydrate. I had hoped that the reaction with hydrazine would be faster than
the hydrolysis of the parent compound.
I wonder if you can reduce R-salt to a tri-N-amine the then diazotise the product and then decompose it with alkali to the corresponding azide, water
and formaldehyde?
I'll try some other variation as well as the original Staudinger method with diphenylamine when I get chance. I'll also investigate the reaction
products from my current experiments. I might also have another bash at a modified hodgkinson's method.
According to the excerpt above about the reaction of nitrous acid and hexamine, R-salt also gives a Liebermann's reaction. I'll investigate this claim
and also whether other secondary nitrosamines, particularly diphenylnitrosamine, do likewise as this may help identify potential nitrosamines. If I
can get my hands on some diethylamine I'll try this too and perhaps morpholine.
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Pard
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Is it possible to recrylise Lead Azide. most pdfs only mention the dextrion stabiltiy rouite. Tohougb I feel if youi clean it up nd then add it, You'd
have something more storable
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DubaiAmateurRocketry
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When does a salt can be hydrated by its own cation again?
‘‘ Hydrazinium Azide Hydrazinate [N2H5]+ [N3]- (N2H4) Empirically N7H9 (Nearly 92% Nitrogen). The compound is less hygroscopic and less volatile
than hydrazinium azide. Explosion of [N2H5][N3]N2H4 yielded dinitrogen (N2), ammonia (NH3) and dihydrogen (H2). I find this interesting for potential
propellant additives.’’
Is it possible to synthesize for example hydroxylammonium azide hydroxylamine? Hydroxylammonium azide has been reported on some papers and synthesized
by ion exchange with hydroxylammonium sulfate and potassium/barium azide and it have promising use in rocket propellants in theoretical calculations.
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woelen
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Just because I read a lot about azides last week, I was feeling it is time to do some actual experimenting and I tried something myself. I made a
small amount of ammonium azide and I am surprised to see that this is not as energetic as I expected it to be. I also made copper(II) azide and that
material is very energetic.
I have NaN3 as the only azide, so this is the starting material.
I prepared appr. 2 ml of a warm nearly saturated solution of NH4NO3 (appr. 50 C).
In a separate test tube I prepared appr. 1 ml of a hot saturated solution of NaN3.
Then I mixed these solutions. No precipitate is formed.
I allowed the solution to cool down to room temperature overnight. This produces some crystals of appr. 2 mm diameter.
Next, I put the solution in a fridge (at 5 C or so) and allowed it to cool down over several hours. After this, a lot more crystalline solid is
present at the bottom.
I decanted the liquid from the crystals and put the crystals on a piece of coffee filter paper. Nearly all liquid is sucked from the crystals and they
are quite dry already.
Next, I allowed the material to dry at room temperature. This works quite well. The material is not hygroscopic.
Now I have a small amount of NH4N3 sitting in a small glass vial.
I heated some of the material in a flame. When this is done, then the material ignites and simply disappears with a soft hissing sound. No explosion
and only a pale orange flame. No smoke or visible vapor. When the material is not allowed any direct contact with the flame, then it melts and then
suddenly it quickly disappears with a soft hissing sound.
As a control experiment I did the same with NaN3. When that is kept in a flame, it burns with a bright orange sparkling flame and it gives white smoke
(most likely Na2O and/or NaOH).
I also made some Cu(N3)2 by adding a solution of NaN3 to a solution of CuSO4.5H2O. When this is done, then a very dark brown precipitate is made,
which is flocculent, but quite compact. When some of this wet precipitate is taken out of the liquid and kept in a flame, then first most of the water
evaporates and then suddenly there is a sharp and high pitched report of the exploding Cu(N3)2. This material is really powerful and also quite
dangerous. Even when still wet it can explode.
---------------------------------
I now feel the need to have some KN3 as well. Using KN3 and perchlorate salts it is possible to make a whole bunch of azides which normally are hard
to make or at low yield only. E.g. making NH4N3 is very simple with KN3 and NH4ClO4 because KClO4 is nearly insoluble in cold water. If I have KN3
then I can also try making azides of all kinds of metal complexes of which I now have the perchlorate salts (e.g. copper(II) ethylene diamine complex
or nickel(II) ethylene diamine complex). Maybe I will try one of the synths for KN3 based on an organic nitrite and hydrazine hydrate in alkaline
alcohol solution.
[Edited on 20-4-14 by woelen]
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DubaiAmateurRocketry
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Interesting! take a video!
You have some hydroxylammonium salts right? Please make a little bit of that, it might be much more energetic than ammonium azide. If
you could try testing its sensitivity that'd great!
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woelen
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I have some hydroxylammonium salts (the chloride and sulfate), but with these it is very hard to obtain the azide. The reason for this is that the
solubility of the azide is not much different than that of the chloride or sulfate and the sodium salts also do not differ very much in their
solubility.
The reason why I could make NH4N3 easily is because
1) NH4N3 is much less soluble than NaN3, NH4NO3 and NaNO3 near 0 degrees Centigrade.
2) NH4N3 is not hygroscopic
Both advantages do not hold for the hydroxylammonium salt. Probably another solvent than water is needed, but there are not that many solvents which
dissolve NaN3 and hydroxylammonium salts easily, while hydroxylammonium azide does not dissolve well.
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PHILOU Zrealone
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Ca(N3)2 and di-hydroxylamonium-sulfate should lead to CaSO4 precipitate and HONH3N3 in solution...
But hydroxylamine might not be sufficiently basic to react with the mild acidic HN3.... probably very sensitive to CO2 from air thus care!
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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DubaiAmateurRocketry
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| Quote: Originally posted by woelen | I have some hydroxylammonium salts (the chloride and sulfate), but with these it is very hard to obtain the azide. The reason for this is that the
solubility of the azide is not much different than that of the chloride or sulfate and the sodium salts also do not differ very much in their
solubility.
The reason why I could make NH4N3 easily is because
1) NH4N3 is much less soluble than NaN3, NH4NO3 and NaNO3 near 0 degrees Centigrade.
2) NH4N3 is not hygroscopic
Both advantages do not hold for the hydroxylammonium salt. Probably another solvent than water is needed, but there are not that many solvents which
dissolve NaN3 and hydroxylammonium salts easily, while hydroxylammonium azide does not dissolve well. |
Ahh I see, I think this works.
Potassium Carbonate + Sodium Azide > Sodium carbonate + Potassium azide.
Potassium azide + Hydroxylammonium sulfate > Potassium sulfate + Hydroxylammonium azide.
If you can make calcium azide for PHILOU Zrealone 's method, that'd be great too.
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The_Davster
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Silver azide and hydroxylammonium chloride 
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Dornier 335A
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That one might work. Silver azide is reported to be about ten times as soluble as silver chloride in water.
Barium azide is likely better than calcium azide. Both because its sulfate is almost completely insoluble in water and because barium azide is much
less explosive than the calcium salt.
PHILOU Zrealone, Bis(hydroxylamino) azide is mentioned in Encyclopedia of Explosives and Related Items. It was prepared by
evaporating a MeOH solution of hydroxylamine and hydrazoic acid. Its explosive properties were not investigated however.
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aldofad
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Lead azide and PETN ina copper tube
Hello world,
is it safe to load 500mg of lead azide and 500mg of PETN in a copper tube (8mm external diameter) in terms of contact between the energetics and
copper? The device will be detonated in a couple of days after loading.
I know there are some energetics that do not react well with copper, but I can't remember which they are.
Cheers, thanks for help.
Aldo
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PHILOU Zrealone
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Cu is not compatible with azides because Cu azide is very sensitive.
To avoid any such risk...plate your inner copper tube with a lacker.
Or do as I do...I use drinking straw ...then fill it and press it sothat it fits perfectly the inner diameter of the copper pipe.
Also that way detonator is stored in the straw and made "effectively" contained by the copper pipe on site or little before use. Less risks of
shrapnells in case of mishaps during storage.
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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markx
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| Quote: |
Hello world,
is it safe to load 500mg of lead azide and 500mg of PETN in a copper tube (8mm external diameter) in terms of contact between the energetics and
copper? The device will be detonated in a couple of days after loading.
I know there are some energetics that do not react well with copper, but I can't remember which they are.
Cheers, thanks for help.
Aldo
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Safe....it most definately is not! Best not to use any metal containment of sizeable wall thickness...the risk of shrapnel is very serious. It can
travel for respectable distances and carry some serious penetrating power. And please do not press the primary on top of the secondary in the metal
tube with a metal loading pin. This is about the worst combination I can think of. It is the choice of industry, but it should not be the method for
an amateur setting. I'm almost sure your press is not shielded either, right? Use the primary separately (in separate containment) and a small amount
of loose secondary inbetween the two. Besides, 500mg of LA is serious overkill for PETN. Even 50mg would be more than enough to ensure reliable
initiation.
[Edited on 4-7-2014 by markx]
Exact science is a figment of imagination.......
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | | Hello world, is it safe to load 500mg of lead azide and 500mg of PETN in a copper tube? |
Anyone who needs to ask such a question should probably steer well clear of explosives . . . ?
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aldofad
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Thanks for replying
Aldo
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Bert
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Threads Merged
8-7-2014 at 16:55 |
NeonPulse
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Airbag propellant question
After a lot of sawing I was able to get into an old airbag gas generation unit. I have a question for somebody who has gotten the NaN3 seperated from
the oxidiser contained in the pellets. I have looked at some of the threads here and other places and they all seem to say the pellets were black.
These are green. It is from a 2003 model ford from the steering wheel unit. Could this be something else newer and not NaN3? There actually is not a
lot of information out there on this subject and I've read what's available so any help would be appreciated. There was only 45g and other people have
said that they got upto 90g What could the oxidiser be that is green? The Boron potassium nitrate was in a separate little compartment and easily
seperated.the green substance seems insoluble in water so if there is azide it should be easy to reclaim via filtration and evaporation of the water,
and provided there is nothing else water soluble I should get back reasonably pure NaN3.
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Hennig Brand
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I have only seen black pellets so far, but then again I have only taken pellets from two different automobiles. The last bunch I had came from an old
(1996) Honda Civic. I went to the patent literature from the years leading up to the year the car was made which gave me a good idea of approximately
how much sodium azide was in the pellets. Dissolving a known mass of pellets in water, filtering and then using the solution to make lead azide with
an excess of lead nitrate and weighing the final dry yield confirmed that the pellets contained ca. 65wt% sodium azide which was approximately what I
had assumed after reading the patent literature of the time.
Haven't read about it for a while, but IIRC there were/are various things (oxidizers, fuels, etc) used in an attempt to get away from azides. You
still may have azide though. I would try to make a small amount of lead azide, measure a yield and do a little qualitative/explosive testing of the
product (if you get a product). Seems to me there was only about 50g or so in the steering wheel airbag in the 1996 Civic, but the passenger side
airbag contained several times more.
"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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markx
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Clean and controlled primary of known quality is the key part of safety in any initiation attempt that relies upon it. It is not a sound approach
trying to cut on the cost by using precursors of unknown composition in producing that part of the device. I would suggest to order/acquire a clean
and controlled batch of precursors if possible, nevermind the cost. Unknown mixtures can have severe effects upon the stablity of the final product
and cause a very nasty accident. Please be safe, friends!
Exact science is a figment of imagination.......
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NeonPulse
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Not to worry but I won't be mixing any of these things with anything since they don't contain NaN3. It happens that I got one of the newer, safer gas
generation units. Another SM member who just happens to be involved in airbag manufacturing filled me in on what he thinks these disks are as quoted
form another thread:
the generant is usually a highly compressed pellet of a mixture of guanidine nitrate, 5-ATZ, and basic copper nitrate, along with some pentaerythritol
for binding and carbon black for anti-static, and some other miscellaneous (and proprietary) bonding agents/burn rate modifiers.
I tried to delete my original post once I found out but couldn't work out how for some reason even though I've done so in the past.
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