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whombat
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how can I recreate the smell of a fart?
No joke folks. I need to come up with a gas that smells as much like a fart as possible for an invention. I am aware of ammonium sulfide, but that
won't work. It's too flammable. I need this gas to be put in a small cylinder with a cigerette lighter injector. Can anyone help? any ideas?
Thanks
[Edited on 11-6-2007 by whombat]
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chemrox
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How juvenile!!!
place parafin and sulfur in a test tube and heat the two together. The product is H2S gas, a poison.
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12AX7
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Hmm... All kinds of aromas. Very complex I'm sure. I'm just groovin' to some right now, myself...
 
Tim
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whombat
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Thank you for your reply chemrox. As juvenile as it is...is is also BIG business. Therefor, a poison gas will not work either. Can't be killing my
customers.
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whombat
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Thanks for the reply Tim and I'm glad I am not sitting next to you!
Seriously, I thought that smart people like yourselfs could help. I am good at business...bad at science. I have tried talking to BOC also, they could
only come up with the afore mentioned gas.
I really hope someone can help.
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not_important
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Variable composition, mostly :
hydrogen sulfide, carbonyl sulfide, low molecular weight mercaptans, sulfides and disulfides, C3 through C6 fatty acids, skatole, indole , other
amines from decarboxylation of amino acids as well as acids aldehydes from the loss of both NH2 and the carboxylic group.
[Edited on 12-6-2007 by not_important]
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whombat
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Just saw your link there Tim. Thank you. Good stuff.
Damn, I don't know how you guys can understand this stuff!
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12AX7
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Yeah sorry I can't really be of much help... If there is an untapped million-dollar market for Oude de Flatus, it might be worthwhile to obtain
samples of some particular farts (keeping in mind there's a whole wide spectrum, from meal to meal and person to person!) and send them to an odor
analysis lab. Gas chromatography and/or mass spectrometry is probably the way to go.
Tim
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bereal511
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Hmmm, I'm interested to know what your product is exactly, whombat. Never knew that anyone was interested in odors for cigarette lighters.
I'd venture to say skatole might be worth looking into, though I suppose the smell isn't quite right and I'm not too sure if its aromatic (?)
properties would be damaged by the flame. Could you give some specifications on the release mechanism of your invention?
As an adolescent I aspired to lasting fame, I craved factual certainty, and I thirsted for a meaningful vision of human life -- so I became a
scientist. This is like becoming an archbishop so you can meet girls.
-- Matt Cartmill
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evil_lurker
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1 taco bell bean burritos
1 mcdonalds hamburger, double rehydrated onions
2 deviled eggs
2 beers
1 half cup broccoli and cheese
If that don't make you go "super atomic" then nothing will. 
Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in
beer.
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not_important
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| Quote: | Originally posted by 12AX7
Gas chromatography and/or mass spectrometry is probably the way to go.
Tim |
It's been done already, that's where I got my list from. If you really want it, the original papers can be tracked down.
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Phosphor-ing
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Whombat you should check out Mythbusters, Episode 48: Franklin's Kite. It shows what is in flatus. I think that would be as good a starting point as
any.
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whombat
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not important: You are correct sir! It has been done. Patents prevent me from using the formula. Good Idea on the odor analysis tim!
Sorry Breal...! There is no way I am even going to give a hint of my product to a roomful of geniuses!!! Not without a non- disclosure.
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whombat
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thanks phosphoring...I love that show. I will check it out tonight!
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not_important
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Might be tough to recreate an odor without using anything that makes up the odor. And there's recent patents on this?!? Much research was done for
the US space program, over 40 years ago. And there much earlier attempts at analysis as well, less complete because of the low concentration of many
compounds.
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jimmyboy
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the paraffin and sulfur will make too much H2S -- besides I think he wants it to be at room temp -- mix ferric sulfide and citric acid -- both
nontoxic - and the the resulting gas will be in a pretty low concentration but plenty stinky
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bereal511
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It's hard to give much advice on what you should be using to produce the odor effect if the specifications for the product are not explained. But I
understand, business is business. It's just hard to know what you're looking for, seems like anything that will combust or thermally decompose will
be of no use to you.
As an adolescent I aspired to lasting fame, I craved factual certainty, and I thirsted for a meaningful vision of human life -- so I became a
scientist. This is like becoming an archbishop so you can meet girls.
-- Matt Cartmill
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Ramiel
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I worked at a minesite with an on-site sulphuric acid plant (which regularly almost killed us all, adorable little thing), and it used
H<sub>2</sub>S in the process. I'd say after testing H<sub>2</sub>S solutions for months and eating minesite food, that the
smell of H<sub>2</sub>S is different to flatulence. There seems to be a <i>je ne sai quoi</i> in addition to
H<sub>2</sub>S. Scatole would be interesting, I understand that it's used in perfumes.
[Edited on 13-6-2007 by Ramiel]
Caveat Orator
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DerAlte
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It is indeed, Ramiel. So is indole, almost equally offensive - skatole is beta methyl indole, IIRC. It always used to amuse me that young women, after
very carefully bathing, may be undoing some of their effort by using perfume! It's a good job men don't have analytical noses like dogs.
The original question is moot. There are too many varieties of the gas in question...
DerAlte
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not_important
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| Quote: |
The original question is moot. There are too many varieties of the gas in question...
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The ranges of composition are well known, some of the variation is modifying the basic composition and oder, while others are just changing the nature
of the carrier gases.
For reasonable healthy humans:
Oxygen 0-10%
Hydrogen 5-35%
Methane 0-30%
Carbon Dioxide 5-50%
Total minor components (listed below) <1%
So 99+ percent is oderless carrier gases, the variations of which don't matter much.
Carboxylic Acids 1-100 ppm butyric, propionic, and valeric are listed as main, C2 to C10 acids were found
Hydrogen Sulfide 0,5-10 ppm
methyl mercaptan 0,05-0,4 ppm
dimethyl sulfide 0,02-0,1 ppm
carbonyl sulfide 0,005-0,01 ppm
indoles 0,5-10 ppm indole and 3-methyl-indolce (skatol) being the major ones
pryrroles less than 10 ppm
Also 0,01-0,1 ppm of other amines, aldehydes, and carboxylic acids formed from amino acids:
RCH(NH2)CO2H => RCH2NH2
RCH(NH2)CO2h => RCHO => RCO2H
Cadaverine is produced from lysine, putrescine from ornithine
Gulping food or drink, or otherwise swallowing air, boosts the amount of nitrogen and may add oxygen. Eating food high in fiber or other
non-digestible carbohydrates pushing up the amounts of CO2 and hydrogen, and inbout a third of the population increases the amount of methane (the
other 2/3 don't produce methane). Eating food high in proteins increases the amine content, which includes the indoles, and some of the minor
carboxylic acids and aldehydes. Food high in organic sulfur increases the amount of hydrogen sulfide and organic sulfides.
And you're not going to recreate the smell without H2S, nor without fairly flammable compounds.
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DerAlte
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A masterly (if not doctoral?) piece of research, not_important !
In the days of my depraved youth, at beer parties as an engineering student, a favorite trick was to practice ignition of the gases, with an over 50%
success rate, IIRC. The sulphur compounds then seemed to be oxidized to SO2, a far more acceptable odor. In view of your data, this is hardly
surprising.
One wonders where the H2 comes from. It is not a common product of organic degradation. CH4 is easily understood. But there again, biochemistry is
quite fascinating and the most remarkable reactions are carried out with ease by various enzymes.
Sulphur compounds, sulphides and mercaptans, and also Indoles, seem to be the key to the odor,
Regards,
DerAlte
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Ozone
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not_important had it right.
You need the fatty acids for the greasy "body", the mercaptans for the "broccoliness" (for this you need ethyl and maybe at trace of propanyl
mercaptan, butyl is a dead ringer for skunk, and I've never had a fart like that). You will also need the old H2S, but a trace of COS would do as well to give it that "egg zing". As for skatole and the like, this is a fart, not
a turd; maybe trace, but most of my farts do not seem to have much of a "shit odor".
Free cysteine and methionine are definite components which add to the broccoliness (watch the methionine or your "farts" might smell too much like
catfood. mmm.
Maybe a trace of benzaldehyde and phenylacetaldehyde (product of decarboxylation of phenylalanine) would add the "sweetish" smell that seems common to
some farts.
I think a trace of ammonia might help too--the aldehydes you get on decarboxylation will react with this (and amino acids) to yield compounds of
unknown taste and smell (at least in shit).
I think a good fart is like a good spaghetti sauce--it's much better the second day (after it has reacted and become *one*).
Don't know how to give it the "moistness", which in farts, I think you can (abstractly) smell.
Bless you (if you can sneeze out your soul, could it not be lost farting?),
EDIT: Bummer, the three posts before this one were not there when I submitted this one?!
O3
[Edited on 15-6-2007 by Ozone]
-Anyone who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
--Albert Einstein
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Lambda
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Why shoot, stab or hit people.
Just use; SMELLY PEPELLANTS and the Mob will ripple apart like Marbles on a table top.
It may however turn out to be rather difficult to make any arrests in this way.
Smelly Repellents:
http://www.riverdeep.net/current/2002/01/011402_smells.jhtml
Chemistry of Skunk Spray:
http://www.humboldt.edu/~wfw2/chemofskunkspray.html
Everything You Wanted To Know About Farts:
http://www2b.abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/archives/archive52/ne...
Here you have some real ass bangers:
Ask PoopReport: The Smell Of Everyone Else?
http://www.poopreport.com/Ask/Content/others.html
Fun with Feces:
http://www.poopreport.com/Fun/index.html
FACTS ON FARTS:
http://www.heptune.com/farts.html
A compound called "Scatole" is the main component giving rise to the smell of human waste, and compounds called "Fatty Acids" give off a sour smell. I
personally find Indole as shitty as it can get, even without Scatole. Scatole and indole with a twitch of Butyl Mercaptan (Butyl Thiol) and Propionic
acid will probably make every SHIT LOVER water mouth into a frenzy.
Collecting the gases of rotting cabbage, potatoes, beans etc. and then condensing the gas may turn out to be an easy sources to making your own fart
propellant. Or just hire a "professional farter":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatulist
Bon Appetite,
Lambda.
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not_important
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DerAlte
A masterly (if not doctoral?) piece of research, not_important ! |
Easy - left behind by a space colonization crazy housemate, who dissappeared into the forest years ago.
| Quote: |
One wonders where the H2 comes from. It is not a common product of organic degradation. CH4 is easily understood. But there again, biochemistry is
quite fascinating and the most remarkable reactions are carried out with ease by various enzymes.
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Bacterial fermentation, just like in anaerobic sewage treatment. Apparently less than a third of the population hosts the bacteria that convert H2
and CO2 to CH4 and H2O. Carbohydrates feed acid formers, who generate the H2, CO2, and some of the fatty acids.
The indoles concentration is on the borderline of smelling fecal, but not solidly into that range; below 10 ppm the aroma changes into floral. Some
of the 'sweetness' may be from them triggering several smells at once. They are less volatile than most of the 'aromatic' compounds, and lag behind
in reaching you noise.
[Edited on 15-6-2007 by not_important]
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whombat
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thank you to all! I REALLY appreciate it. Look for mention of this website and all of your help when I launch my product. You will know it when you
see it.
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