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Niklas
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Quote: Originally posted by Maui3 ![](images/xpblue/lastpost.gif) |
Also, I had a hard time finding a procedure for the oxidation of isoamyl alcohol to isovaleric acid with potassium permanganate (though I did find one
with dichromate). I finally found someone oxidizing the isoamyl alcohol with permanganate on youtube, but they only got a 5% yield (if I remember
correctly). I would like to get more than a 5% yield, since the reagents are expensive lol. Is that low of a yield expected? |
Generally I would expect quite a bit higher for such a substrate, NileRed got 60% when oxidizing butanol for example (https://youtu.be/M8VSKqPYdHI?si=W5D8y9_pLo07mNnI), and this one shouldn’t be too different.
What I would do is to mix 1 eq of the alcohol with an aqueous solution of 0,4 eq sodium carbonate, add a solution of 2,2 eq potassium permanganate,
let that stir for maybe two hours, acidify with sodium bisulfate, slowly add H2O2 until all the MnO2 dissolves, extract with ether, evaporate things
down, and optionally distill under vacuum.
Regarding the plan, I see two issues with it:
First the minor one, as you have carbonyls on the substance you are acylating, you‘ll have to add at least as many equivalents of the lewis acid, as
the carbonyls will all complex and therefore make it unreactive towards the desired ester carbonyls.
And now to the major one, the fact that you‘d be doing a Fries doesn’t change the issue of the already acylated ring just not being able to react
further, so for each alkyl group you‘ll have to do a separate O-alkylation, Fries, Wolff-Kishner cycle, so it’s really going to be quite lengthy
and annoying unfortunately..
Also I think you skipped a step on installing the acetyls? At least I don‘t think that type of acid catalyzed direct acetylation is an option here,
as the phenol groups will most definitely react first, and I don’t know if catalytic p-TSA can properly mediate a type of Fries as well.
Something I didn’t consider before, you may have to do things in the order of installing one isovaleroyl group, then the two acetyls, and then the
remaining isovaleroyl, as ortho should be favored as soon as that one bulky alkyl group is placed in para. Unfortunately that also comes with the
downside that you can’t take a shortcut with the two ethyls being installed in one FC-alkylation (as you wouldn’t have to worry about over
alkylation if it’s the last two), but would really have to do three steps for every alkyl chain..
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Maui3
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Gotcha.
Yes, you are definitely correct - I forgot a step in installing the acetyls in the picture.
For the major issue, it's fine - I can do it like that.. What I am most worried about is how much product I am going to lose in the process. Do you
think, for example following the alkylation to the fries, I do have to isolate the product? I expect if I just calculate how much AlCl3 to add,
roughly, it will be fine. Though I'll have to remove side products first. Allso thank you very much for pointing it out! Looking on the bright side of
things - I am going to walk out of this project as a expert in Alkylation, Fries, Wolff-Kinshner cycle, lol :p
So something like this?
![](https://i.imgur.com/177QNA3.png)
NOTE: Like last time, I probably made a mistake in my chemdraw again. It's quite a lot to write haha.
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Niklas
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Yeah, that looks about right. I feel like a one-pot approach for the Fries and FC should definitely be possible, so that will save you some steps at
least.
On a different note, I don’t know if that’s of any relevance to you, but I thought I’d share it anyway. I tried coming up with a less
conventional approach where the ring is constructed from non-aromatic components (isohexanal and butanal), as for some highly substituted aryl
structures that actually results in a shorter overall path. Just thought it was a nice little challenge, but maybe it can serve as inspiration for
some future projects
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bnull
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Three-fourths of the initial catechol at least.
Assume each step yields 90%, which would be wonderful. Being 12 steps, the final yield would be about 0.9012 = 0.28 (28%) of the initial
catechol. I don't think you would get very close to that actually.
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Maui3
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Niklas, thank you! Sounds good - as always: I'll keep you guys updated - both with my succeses, and when I need help !
Also, that approach is very interesting. I definitely serves as inspiration. Heck, I might even try it after this one. Since I don't have access to
NMR, and my basic analysis methods are either melting point or biological (aka. tasting or smelling). It would be interesting to see if I got similar
results. Haven't looked through your whole approach yet though - so I might not try it if it contains n-butyllithium or similar LOL.
Bnull, ah - thank you for your estimate. Assuming I do a one-pot I will probably save a lot of yield. But it would still suprise me if I got 28%.
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clearly_not_atara
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I don't think there is a one-pot solution to this. And that final acylation is not going to yield anywhere near 90%.
I like bnull's approach, at least on the side of the dienophile. However, I think I would replace his diene by 2,5-diethyl-3,4-diethoxyfuran, which in
turn might be obtained by the dimerization of 1-chloro-1-ethoxy-2-butanone, the latter obtained by chlorination of 1-ethoxy-2-butanone, and that from
the product of perethylation of glycolic acid and a selective addition of nucleophilic ethyl. This has the advantage of avoiding the smelly sulfur
oxidation, and ensuring that the double bonds are in the appropriate orientation for the Diels-Alder reaction.
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bnull
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It wasn't me.
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Niklas
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Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara ![](images/xpblue/lastpost.gif) | However, I think I would replace his diene by 2,5-diethyl-3,4-diethoxyfuran, which in turn might be obtained by the dimerization of
1-chloro-1-ethoxy-2-butanone, the latter obtained by chlorination of 1-ethoxy-2-butanone, and that from the product of perethylation of glycolic acid
and a selective addition of nucleophilic ethyl. This has the advantage of avoiding the smelly sulfur oxidation, and ensuring that the double bonds are
in the appropriate orientation for the Diels-Alder reaction. |
That‘s a good idea, actually thought of going via a furan derivative as well, tho I wasn’t sure how one could pull of a simple enough synthesis.
What exactly do you imagine for the dimerization? I obviously see the Paal-Knorr part, but how would one do this Wurtz type reaction with the ketone
still present?
I guess ketal protection could get around it, but combined with the fact that you would somehow have to obtain the 1-ethoxybutanone as well, that
would result in quite a long path overall..
I agree on the sulfur aromatization being less than ideal tho, personally would want to avoid it as well xd. The obvious alternative would be some
benzoquinone type oxidants, like chloranil or DDQ. Chloranil is available from paracetamol (https://youtu.be/Fr3__SWwpXc?si=lt2CLsX4QCVu1T5-), it is rather annoying in terms of solubility tho. Or one could attempt a Saegusa-Ito type
oxidation as far as they have palladium on hand.
[Edited on 29-1-2025 by Niklas]
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clearly_not_atara
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The coupling is achieved directly by iron pentacarbonyl (the safest metal carbonyl):
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/jo00981a011
as well as by reduced titanium isopropoxide:
https://www.thieme-connect.com/products/ejournals/abstract/1...
or by tetrakis(dimethylamino)ethylene:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00404...
or by the reduction product of NiBr2(PPh3)2 with Zn:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00404...
In our specific case, the compound is not only an alpha-chloroketone but an alpha-chloroether, both functional groups tending to increase the
reactivity of the alkyl halide. My hunch is that a less active metal, like copper powder, might be sufficient to induce the reaction. The stability of
the substrate may prove to be a greater challenge.
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Niklas
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Pretty neat, especially that approach using TIPT seems quite achievable. The use of NiBr2(PPh3)2 and Zn seems pretty good in terms of accessibility as
well, tho they seem to only have tried it on aryl substrates (tho I don’t see much of a reason why it should fail on an alkyl substrate in this
case).
I agree on the potential problem regarding the instability of the starting chloride, but I don’t think it’s one of those cases where it should
make the process straight up impossible. The details of this concern would probably have to be figured out experimentally tho.
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clearly_not_atara
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That's my great weakness, reading
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Maui3
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I think actually I might do Niklas' approach instead, and use all the catechol I made for mass-producing dopamine, lol .
There are just a few things I need clarified. If you don't mind, could someone please send me the new synthesis scheme with all of your changes?
Thanks a lot! :-)
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Maui3
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I ideally want to avoid using the TiCl4, it seems quite expensive..
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clearly_not_atara
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The most practical option in terms of price and safety is almost certainly going to be NiBr2(PPh3)2. Triphenylphosphine is widely used, whereas TDAE
is sort of a specialty thing, and much easier to ship than TiCl4 or Fe(CO)5. NiBr2 is easily prepared from the elements or by various kinds of salt
metathesis. And in fact, the nickel complex is used catalytically. Et4NI is also used, but this is also not rare nor does it require hazmat
shipping IIRC.
The downside is that the rxn is only tested on the phenacyl substrates. Our substrate is very reactive, but extrapolation is always a little risky.
Attachment: iyoda1985.pdf (233kB) This file has been downloaded 20 times
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Maui3
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Thanks. You mentioned a furan-deriative as well - I am a bit confused, could you send the new reaction scheme please?
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Niklas
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Here would be a complete scheme of things (left in both potential diene paths), instead of the McMurry addition-elimination sequence for the
dienophile I came up with an alternative approach going via the hydrazone of the corresponding diketone and eliminating with HgO.
For the 1-ethoxybutanone precursor I thought of an approach resembling the Nugent-homologisation using ethoxide as a nucleophile rather than the
classic chloride (the sulfur species should be available from methyl iodide and DMSO followed by treatment with base).
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Maui3
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Thanks Niklas - that's a really big help!
For the 1-ethoxy-2-butanone, I really do not want to work with methyl iodide, do you think there could be another way to make it - that also uses
accesable starting materials? I have played around in ChemDraw for a while now, but somehow can't find a way :/. Maybe something starting from
glycolic acid, acetic acid or chloroacetic acid? I have *too much* ethyl bromide on hand, so I would love to use that, if possible ![:P](./images/smilies/tongue.gif)
Secondly, for the hydrazine part, could I use an alternative to HgO? I really do not want to work with mercury compounds either.
Oh, also, how would you make the isohexanoic acid? It's quite hard to find where I have looked, or very expensive - like 25 mL = 80 €.
Again, thank you for you help in explaining this to me!
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Niklas
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One alternative tho longer approach I would have in mind for the 1-ethoxyburanone would be to start from acetonitrile, monobrominate in GAA, make the
ethyl ether by reaction with sodium ethoxide (would likely have to use two equivalents as the product would quickly get deprotonated), and then react
with the Grignard reagent of ethyl bromide, what should selectively result in the ketone as nitriles have no way of reacting twice.
For the isohexanoic acid a classic Grignard approach using CO2 is probably best, this would take you back to isopentyl bromide which itself is
available from the cheap alcohol by reaction with HBr.
Regarding alternatives for the alkyne synthesis I‘ll have to look through some literature, it is worth noting out tho that the HgO in the proposed
path is only catalytic (the diphenylacetylene synthesis on Orgsyn uses 2-4 g for 0,5 mol), so it’s not like you would have to handle equimolar
quantities of mercury salts, but yeah getting around its use is definitely still preferable even if one has the capabilities to handle and dispose of
it.
[Edited on 1-2-2025 by Niklas]
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Maui3
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Thank you Niklas!
So would our approach be something like this?
![](https://i.imgur.com/Wyrz3XU.png)
It's quite a few steps longer, but do you think still it's plausible?
If it is theoretically possible, this method is also quite cheap for me:
- Acetonitrile = 6 EURO
- KMnO4 = 3 EURO
- TPP = 6 EURO
- NiBr2 = IDK?sulfate?
That is excluding CO2, which I do not really know where to find cheaply.
Can Nickel chloride be used instead of the bromide? The bromide is quite hard to find even on chemical websites, too.
[Edited on 2-2-2025 by Maui3]
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Niklas
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The CO2 would go directly to the carboxylic acid, you can simply generate it from sodium carbonate and sulfuric acid or add it as dry ice. Other than
that it looks about right, haven’t seen that kind of coupling of the carboxylic acid to the alkene before, but if you put it there I presume you
found it somewhere in literature so nothing wrong with that either.
I doubt nickel chloride would work nearly as well, but I guess you could simply make NiBr2 from bromine and nickel metal as you need Br2 for some of
the other steps anyway.
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Maui3
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When you say the coupling of the carboxylic acid to alkene before, do you mean this?
![](https://i.imgur.com/mHHPThg.png)
Clearly_Not_Atara said this "The most practical option in terms of price and safety is almost certainly going to be NiBr2(PPh3)2. Triphenylphosphine
is widely used, whereas TDAE is sort of a specialty thing, and much easier to ship than TiCl4 or Fe(CO)5. NiBr2 is easily prepared from the elements
or by various kinds of salt metathesis. And in fact, the nickel complex is used catalytically. Et4NI is also used, but this is also not rare nor does
it require hazmat shipping IIRC." so I understood that as TPP and Zn could be used instead of the TiCl4. I might have misunderstood it.
Also, for the grignard reagents.. I do not have argon or nitrogen, and it is very expensive where I live. How sensitive are they really? I am a bit
nervous that that will make my project fail :/
[Edited on 2-2-2025 by Maui3]
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Niklas
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Quote: Originally posted by Maui3 ![](images/xpblue/lastpost.gif) | Clearly_Not_Atara said this "The most practical option in terms of price and safety is almost certainly going to be NiBr2(PPh3)2. Triphenylphosphine
is widely used, whereas TDAE is sort of a specialty thing, and much easier to ship than TiCl4 or Fe(CO)5. NiBr2 is easily prepared from the elements
or by various kinds of salt metathesis. And in fact, the nickel complex is used catalytically. Et4NI is also used, but this is also not rare nor does
it require hazmat shipping IIRC." so I understood that as TPP and Zn could be used instead of the TiCl4. I might have misunderstood it.
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I think that was purely referring to the coupling of the 1-bromo-1-ethoxybutanone to the furane intermediate. But yeah I‘ll see what else I can find
for this type of conversion then.
Regarding the sensitivity of Grignard reactions, the main problem is generally moisture, and while they do have some oxygen sensitivity as well, as
you are using really volatile diethylether as the solvent this more or less creates a blanket for the reaction mixture, so it’s generally doable
without argon. Just make sure to properly dry the solvent and all the reagents beforehand, heat out the apparatus with a heatgun before adding the
reagents, and attach a drying tube to things.
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Maui3
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Again, thank you so much! You are a big help! :-)
Quote: Originally posted by Niklas ![](images/xpblue/lastpost.gif) | Regarding the sensitivity of Grignard reactions, the main problem is generally moisture, and while they do have some oxygen sensitivity as well, as
you are using really volatile diethylether as the solvent this more or less creates a blanket for the reaction mixture, so it’s generally doable
without argon. Just make sure to properly dry the solvent and all the reagents beforehand, heat out the apparatus with a heatgun before adding the
reagents, and attach a drying tube to things. |
Gotcha! Will do, then.
Are you at all concerned with the amount of steps in the procedure - and how much can fail lol? I mean I can get a lot of the starting materials, so I
can try it multiple times, on a smaller scale, until it works.
[Edited on 2-2-2025 by Maui3]
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bnull
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Poking my nose in here again.
Treat the procedure not as a multi-step synthesis but as a series of independent syntheses whose products you intend to use later. Each product would
be a goal in itself. It may seem the same thing but there are differences. The most important seems to be on the pressure that you may not feel but
there always is about failure. Botching one attempt won't doom the rest.
If a product from a step is stable, keeps well etc., then the synthesis of this product is an independent procedure and you should make enough of it
for the next procedure. If the product degrades or polymerizes or rearranges itself on storage, then this product is an intermediate in a more complex
procedure. Once you're satisfied about the conditions, yield, side-reactions, go to the next procedure.
Edit: It looks like programming.
You're not in a sort of "Fieser's Martius Yellow Challenge", are you?
[Edited on 2-2-2025 by bnull]
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Maui3
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Thank you bnull - those are some really good points!
I think that I didn't treat each product as a goal in itself, but the way you suggest sounds like a lot better way to do it. I'll keep that in mind
from now on! ![:D](./images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
I geuss: once you successfully synthesize one product, it opens up even more ways to go about the total synthesis, than if you couldn't synthesize
that product.
For each step I will probably update you all on here! Even when it doesn't work - I can hopefully get some tips.
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