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beerwiz
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Finding small amounts of Plutonium or U235?
I want to run some tests on small amounts of pure Plutonium (239 or 241) and U235, just need about 1 gram of each. I am willing to pay, money is no
object, I can pay up to $100k per gram if need be. These are just for testing purposes and reference material.
Any ideas or advice on where I can buy them? I know sample amounts of Uranium ore are OTC, so I thought it wouldn't hurt to ask for a small reference
amount of Plutonium and U235.
If all else fails, can I synthesize or extract them myself? Just need 1 gram of each, that's all.
[Edited on 24-9-2023 by beerwiz]
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phlogiston
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No offence, but are you serious?
What a bizarre request.
Its the combination of apparently finding it too much effort to read even a basic wikipedia page about how these materials are made and regulated, yet
being willing to pay crazy amounts of money for them. Even better, announce in advance that you'd pay that much, completely ruining your negotiation
position (further showing a complete disinterest in money).
It must be nice if you have so much money that offering to pay such amounts are easier for you than spending an hour or two on basic internet
'research'.
Forget about isolating them.
If you have large amounts of money to burn, first pay someone to look into what permits are required to buy/own/store these materials, then set up a
lab to keep them properly and finally just buy them from an official supplier of nuclear materials.
Regardless of how much money you have, you probably need a very good reason to justify being able to buy and own them. Just 'testing purposes and
reference material' won't do. You need to be way, way more specific.
[Edited on 24-9-2023 by phlogiston]
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"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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DraconicAcid
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Dangit, phlogisten, for $100K per gram, I would be willing to put a lot of effort into convincing Mark that whatever I'm selling really, really is
U-235. Honest.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
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beerwiz
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Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston  | No offence, but are you serious?
What a bizarre request.
Its the combination of apparently finding it too much effort to read even a basic wikipedia page about how these materials are made and regulated, yet
being willing to pay crazy amounts of money for them. Even better, announce in advance that you'd pay that much, completely ruining your negotiation
position (further showing a complete disinterest in money).
It must be nice if you have so much money that offering to pay such amounts are easier for you than spending an hour or two on basic internet
'research'.
Forget about isolating them.
If you have large amounts of money to burn, first pay someone to look into what permits are required to buy/own/store these materials, then set up a
lab to keep them properly and finally just buy them from an official supplier of nuclear materials.
Regardless of how much money you have, you probably need a very good reason to justify being able to buy and own them. Just 'testing purposes and
reference material' won't do. You need to be way, way more specific.
[Edited on 24-9-2023 by phlogiston] |
Yes, I have a complete disinterest in money, like I said, money is no object to me. Frankly, I'd even pay $100million for 1 gram of each, eventhough I
know Plutonium for example costs $60million per kilo. I did read the Wikipedia page, but it's hard to tell which method will really work and which
won't. Trial and error is not something I want to spend time on (been there done that), if I don't have to, due to the dozens if not hundreds
experiments that I'll need to do and the toxicity and difficulty in keeping it contained even with extensive protective measures, not to mention waste
disposal.
I did that for another similar project of mine, and despite taking all legal measures, I put myself at great personal risk. I don't want to repeat
that ordeal with this project, it will surely attract lots of gov't attention once all of the paperwork starts flowing. The truth of the matter is, I
just want to run some tests. I have some theories that I know will work, because they worked on other elements. I just need 1g of material to start.
Are there official suppliers that will sell these to a private company? Is this even a possibility?
Any other ideas?
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Fulmen
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Are you on coke or just trolling? If you had 100k to spend on this you wouldn't spend your time asking about it here.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
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unionised
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You just jumped the shark.
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clearly_not_atara
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I have some experience working in radiation safety and the control of radioactive materials.
Short answer: No.
Long answer: Nnnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooooooo. There is absolutely, intentionally, for very good reason, zero fucking legitimate way for a private
individual to obtain these substances. And anyone waving unreasonable amounts of money around is — correctly — treated with even more suspicion.
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woelen
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You're at the wrong place with your absurd requests. Most of the people over here already are struggling to find common chemicals like H2SO4 or HNO3,
due to all kinds of regulations in many parts of the world. Forget about finding a source of Pu or U-235 via Sciencemadness.
I also have the feeling that you are trolling.
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Texium
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If you read some of this member’s previous posts, you’ll see you’re talking to a self-described alchemist… Seeing as previous posts hinted at
projects with “infinite return on investment,” I’d assume that this person doesn’t have hundreds of millions of dollars to shell out, and
actually believes that they’re capable of generating that kind of capital on demand via ~Alchemy~.
Not going to Detritus this yet. I’d like to grab some popcorn and see how it proceeds.
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j_sum1
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I am with you, Tex. This feels like trolling.
But here is a related question...
Does anyone have in their element collection any visible quantities of any actinides? How did you obtain it?
I know of some Th stories. I myself have an Am button but the americium is a thin oxide layer and not realky visible. I know depleted U turnings are
technically available for some people but I don't know any good sources. Are there any other options on the table?
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pantone159
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In the USA, it is occasionally possible to get reasonable physical samples of Th and U. Beyond that though...
To answer the OP's post directly, in the USA, if you are able to obtain the relevant NRC permit to handle Special Nuclear Material, you can probably
buy samples of both Pu and U-235. Once upon a time, there was even a government lab webpage that offered 1 g of metallic Pu for a price of $3499. That
website is no more, but if you have the permits, such may still be available. I think I even looked once at the application cost for a permit, it was
of the order of $7000. So if you somehow would qualify for the permit, you might be able to get your samples for a mere $10K or so.
Of course, I would expect that the chances of getting the relevant permits are about zero.
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beerwiz
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Plutonium seems to be too complex to source or synthesize. But I can definitely substitute it with U-235 and it seems to be more doable.
I can get an infinite amount of U-238, no questions asked, but it's of no use for my needs. I do have a large plain old centrifuge that can do 4kg at
a time. If I grind down the U-238 metal to very fine nano particle size, can I use that centrifuge to separate the isotope to a purity of 99.99%
(fully enriched)? What are the alternatives? I just need 1g of fully enriched U-235, but can settle for 100mg. I can set aside a large budget for a
custom made centrifuge (gas?) to isolate the isotope if that's the only way. This way I don't have to file any paperwork and nobody will know,
otherwise just applying for the NRC permit may put me on some kind of a gov't watchlist.
Any suggestions on the best way to separate the U-235 at 99.99% purity for a small amount (1g)?
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DraconicAcid
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If you send me a kg of uranium, I'll try to separate it for you and let you know.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
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Tsjerk
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The combination these two is just not going to happen. Forget about it. You won't be able to buy U-235 without a permit.
Have a look at the Manhattan project to find out what it takes to enrich uranium. You could have done that before you asked the last question though.
When countries like Iran and North Korea have so much trouble getting to any amount of enriched uranium, what makes you think you can do it? And if
so, how would you do it without any government finding out?
[Edited on 26-9-2023 by Tsjerk]
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unionised
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| Quote: Originally posted by beerwiz | If I grind down the U-238 metal to very fine nano particle size, can I use that centrifuge to separate the isotope to a purity of 99.99% (fully
enriched)?
This way I don't have to file any paperwork and nobody will know, otherwise just applying for the NRC permit may put me on some kind of a gov't
watchlist.
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No, it won't
and you are almost certainly on a govt watch list.
Do you think they don't read discussion fora?
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woelen
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If it looks like a troll, and if it smells like a troll, then most likely it is a troll.
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phlogiston
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I still can't tell whether you are trolling or not, so good job there if you are. It's a useless thread but I am enjoying it so I'll bite and keep
fueling you a bit more.
1g is not a small amount. It took a huge amount of effort and money for the first scientists to first isolate these materials to obtain -micrograms-
of them.
Just as a theoretical excercise (because, let's be real, you aren't ever going to obtain these materials), for starters, the fact that you have a
factor of 10 uncertainty in the amount that you actually need shows that you didn't think through very well what you want to do with it. Considering
the huge amount of effort necessary to painstakingly obtain micrograms, wouldnt it make sense to first figure out how much you actually need? Maybe
there is further room for optimisation there.
If it were possible to improvise some mcgyver isotope separation process that would allow you to isolate grams of weapons grade U235 easily and in
your home, that would itself be far more important/worrying than whatever you are planning to do with it once you have it.
Fortunately, after many decades of international state-funded research failing to come up with a way to do so, we can be fairly confident that beerwiz
isn't going to accomplish that, not even even after getting help from unfunded amateur scientists on an obscure internet forum.
If you do, however, actually start experimenting with depleted U filings in your clothes centrifuge, please do keep us updated, if only for the
entertainment factor. If governments are doing their job, you very likely already are on some watchlist, so you can stop worrying about that.
[Edited on 26-9-2023 by phlogiston]
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"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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Texium
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Not to mention that they're talking about acquiring U-235 starting from U-238, which is of course, impossible, rather than starting
with natural uranium ore containing ~0.7% U-235.
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Tsjerk
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| Quote: Originally posted by Texium | | Not to mention that they're talking about acquiring U-235 starting from U-238, which is of course, impossible, rather than starting
with natural uranium ore containing ~0.7% U-235. |
Not if you, as beerwiz, can nanomize it and get perfect separation by putting it in a centrifuge. Then you only need a couple dozen kilograms from
which you can get that last bit of U-235.
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beerwiz
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| Quote: Originally posted by woelen | Most of the people over here already are struggling to find common chemicals like H2SO4 or HNO3, due to all kinds of regulations in many parts of the
world. Forget about finding a source of Pu or U-235 via Sciencemadness.
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H2SO4 and HNO3 are the essential chemical building blocks of modern civilization. It is true that therse are restricted in many places, it saddens me
but at the same time your post gave me a good laugh because I am way past that stage of experimentation, it does remind me of the early days though.
| Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk |
Have a look at the Manhattan project to find out what it takes to enrich uranium. You could have done that before you asked the last question though.
When countries like Iran and North Korea have so much trouble getting to any amount of enriched uranium, what makes you think you can do it? And if
so, how would you do it without any government finding out?
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That was a long time ago and only the beginning. North Korea already has nukes and has had them for a long time. Not sure about Iran.
I can do this because I've done the impossible many times before. As a matter of fact, when I posted this thread the idea just occured to me, less
than 24 hours later I already found the best method, it can easily do 1g with 99.99%+ purity in less than 2 days.
| Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston |
Just as a theoretical excercise (because, let's be real, you aren't ever going to obtain these materials), for starters, the fact that you have a
factor of 10 uncertainty in the amount that you actually need shows that you didn't think through very well what you want to do with it. Considering
the huge amount of effort necessary to painstakingly obtain micrograms, wouldnt it make sense to first figure out how much you actually need? Maybe
there is further room for optimisation there.
If it were possible to improvise some mcgyver isotope separation process that would allow you to isolate grams of weapons grade U235 easily and in
your home, that would itself be far more important/worrying than whatever you are planning to do with it once you have it.
Fortunately, after many decades of international state-funded research failing to come up with a way to do so, we can be fairly confident that beerwiz
isn't going to accomplish that, not even even after getting help from unfunded amateur scientists on an obscure internet forum.
If you do, however, actually start experimenting with depleted U filings in your clothes centrifuge, please do keep us updated, if only for the
entertainment factor. If governments are doing their job, you very likely already are on some watchlist, so you can stop worrying about that.
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Theoretically I can run my tests on 1 microgram, but 1g would be much easier to handle, a luxury I take comfort in. The issue here is not the amount
but ease of physical handling.
I was never a fan of microchemistry, I prefer to work with 100mg+. Easy MacGyver type separation processes are out there, as easy as a precipitation,
but the know-how is the key.
I already improvised a MacGyver type of process that I'm sure will work 100%. The only thing I'm worried about now is handling the pure isotope and
physical safety. Mostly secondary issues like proper waste disposal, decontamination of work areas, and proper storage without irradiating the whole
neighborhood.
| Quote: Originally posted by Texium | | Not to mention that they're talking about acquiring U-235 starting from U-238, which is of course, impossible, rather than starting
with natural uranium ore containing ~0.7% U-235. |
The U-238 billets are not separated, they still have the U-235 isotope.
| Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk |
Not if you, as beerwiz, can nanomize it and get perfect separation by putting it in a centrifuge. Then you only need a couple dozen kilograms from
which you can get that last bit of U-235. |
Do you think that will work? I can nanomize it easily in the 2-5nm range.
Another question I have is, when melting large multi kilo amounts of U-235 to cast into molds, should I do it under Argon to prevent oxidation? What
type of PPE is recommended? Is there any risk of detonation when molten or when pouring into a mold?
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Texium
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| Quote: Originally posted by beerwiz | | I can do this because I've done the impossible many times before. As a matter of fact, when I posted this thread the idea just occured to me, less
than 24 hours later I already found the best method, it can easily do 1g with 99.99%+ purity in less than 2 days. |
Oh, really, care to enlighten us about this method of yours?
| Quote: Originally posted by beerwiz | | Another question I have is, when melting large multi kilo amounts of U-235 to cast into molds, should I do it under Argon to prevent oxidation? What
type of PPE is recommended? Is there any risk of detonation when molten or when pouring into a mold? |
Can't
tell if trolling or actually insane...
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beerwiz
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| Quote: Originally posted by Texium | | Quote: Originally posted by beerwiz | | I can do this because I've done the impossible many times before. As a matter of fact, when I posted this thread the idea just occured to me, less
than 24 hours later I already found the best method, it can easily do 1g with 99.99%+ purity in less than 2 days. |
Oh, really, care to enlighten us about this method of yours?
| Quote: Originally posted by beerwiz | | Another question I have is, when melting large multi kilo amounts of U-235 to cast into molds, should I do it under Argon to prevent oxidation? What
type of PPE is recommended? Is there any risk of detonation when molten or when pouring into a mold? |
Can't
tell if trolling or actually insane... |
The small scale way is using MS with a large collector, if properly configured, it can do about 1g in less than 2 days.
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Texium
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| Quote: Originally posted by beerwiz | | The small scale way is using MS with a large collector, if properly configured, it can do about 1g in less than 2 days. |
No, it most certainly can’t. Not even a real particle accelerator can achieve that level of yield. Once again, I can’t tell if
this is trolling or pure delusion.
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j_sum1
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Big claims. Unrealistic resources. Poor grasp of the science. Requests and questions that are trivial compared to the rest of the project.
I get the feeling I have read all of this before.
Dang. It is not even interesting enough to make a bucket of popcorn.
Beerwiz. I hate to pour cold water on your dream project, but I think this thread is destined for Detritus. I will keep it open long enough for you to
give us the specs on your MS and tell us how you calculated a gram in two days. (Is that product or raw material? Either way, it is one hell of a
throughput for an atom by atom process. That ioniser is gonna be white hot.)
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mayko
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this fellow seems like a reputable vendor
al-khemie is not a terrorist organization
"Chemicals, chemicals... I need chemicals!" - George Hayduke
"Wubbalubba dub-dub!" - Rick Sanchez
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