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FRTZKNG
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EU Survey on Chemical Restrictions – Stop further chemical bans
The EU Commission is conducting a feedback survey on the regulation of trade with so called "high risk chemicals" until February 20, 2023. Depending
on the results of this survey, EU lawmakers may impose new restrictions on even more chemicals. So far, only six people voted on this survey.
The new restrictions may affect the following groups of chemicals: cyanides, phosphides, sulfides and hypochlorites (including other chemicals capable
of "evolving halogens" such as TCCA, hypobromites and so on). Especially a ban of hypochlorites would be of utmost concern for amateur chemists.
I don't know if it would help to accomplish anything, but the least the Chemistry community in the EU can do is to take this survey and have them take
the overwhelmingly negative feedback into account, to make it clear that restricting access to basic chemicals is not helping in terrorism prevention.
The least we can do is try.
Therefore, I beg as many of you to fill out this survey. It should take around 10 to 20 minutes – and maybe do something against the unintentional
prosecution of amateur chemists doing legitimate science at home.
The survey is also asking for feedback on restrictions already in effect, e.g. on the notorious sulfuric and nitric acid ban. You can upload a
position paper further explaining your opinion and presumably make additional demands. I propose the following:
To either
- increase the maximum concentration at which you can obtain sulfuric acid and nitric acid with a permit to 100% and make it
mandatory for all EU members to give out these permits (My home country of Germany explicitly does not issue those permits under any circumstances)
- exempt small quantities, e.g. 1 to 2 litres, from this ban; because these small quantities are not sufficient to produce anything at scale which
would be useful to trigger an explosion)
- lift the restrictions in place all together; because they do not provide an increase in national security sufficient enough to justify the serious
restriction of citizen science and thus the right to academic freedom.
I want to gather more opinions on this and take them into account in a position paper, which I will submit together with my survey on February 19th.
Links (available in all 24 EU languages):
English
Deutsch
Français
Italiano
Español
Português
Nederlands
Gaeilge
Polski
Lietuvių
Latviešu
Eesti
Suomi
Svenska
Dansk
Malti
Magyar
Hrvatski
Slovenčina
Slovenščina
Čeština
Română
български
Ελληνικά
Edit: deleted old links
[Edited on 25-1-2023 by FRTZKNG]
[Edited on 25-1-2023 by FRTZKNG]
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blogfast25
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Quote: Originally posted by FRTZKNG  | .
I don't know if it would help to accomplish anything, but the least the Chemistry community in the EU can do is to take this survey and have them take
the overwhelmingly negative feedback into account, to make it clear that restricting access to basic chemicals is not helping in terrorism prevention.
The least we can do is try.
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Effective terrorism prevention would start with changing our FP towards certain parts of the world. But as long as the EU/UK slavishly follow the US
that won't happen.
I'm UK, not EU, so can't honestly complete the survey. Thanks for sharing it though!
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sceptic
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I don't live in the EU, so I can't fill out the survey. In your position paper, are you planning to include some justification for the desirability of
amateur science? I suspect that when the EU lawmakers hear "amateur chemistry" they'll think "drug lab" or "terrorist," since those are usually the
only home labs that make it into the news. They might realise that restricting access to these chemicals probably won't do much to deter terrorism or
drug manufacturing, but they might think that even a small effect is worth pursuing, given that they probably don't think that amateur chemistry is an
activity worth preserving.
To prove that amateur chemistry is valuable, the wikipedia page for amateur chemistry has a fairly good list of notable people who worked with it, including several Nobel prize winners, computer
pioneers, and early chemists.
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Thyzoid
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I will make a video about this. Hopefully many will fill out that survey. I am tired of politicians turning Europe into a sh*thole by banning even
more chemicals without real reasons.
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unionised
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Our what?
Anyway, This is an English language forum so many/ most of the Europeans here aren't in the EU (any more).
But I hope that the message is spread to other chemistry fora across the EU.
The UK still has to pay attention to the EU- they just not longer get the chance to influence it. (This was called "taking back control").
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Keras
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Thanks for that. I’ll prepare a submission of my own.
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FRTZKNG
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| Quote: Originally posted by sceptic | I don't live in the EU, so I can't fill out the survey. In your position paper, are you planning to include some justification for the desirability of
amateur science? I suspect that when the EU lawmakers hear "amateur chemistry" they'll think "drug lab" or "terrorist," since those are usually the
only home labs that make it into the news. They might realise that restricting access to these chemicals probably won't do much to deter terrorism or
drug manufacturing, but they might think that even a small effect is worth pursuing, given that they probably don't think that amateur chemistry is an
activity worth preserving.
To prove that amateur chemistry is valuable, the wikipedia page for amateur chemistry has a fairly good list of notable people who worked with it, including several Nobel prize winners, computer
pioneers, and early chemists. |
I will definitely take this into account. The whole point is that amateur chemistry isn't just drugs and terrorism. That there is a legitimate use for
chemistry and especially that these proclaimed risks do not outweigh any legitimate uses. Because, that would be like proclaiming
that legitimate uses of flour, e.g. baking, are banned due to the risk of misusing flour to create dust explosions. Which would sound absolutely
asinine. But this is the level of reasoning we're talking here with the EU legislators.
Also, at least in Germany, someone who really wants to use those chemicals in large quantities with malicious intent, could just open a business and
thus circumvent the entire legislation. So can any amateur chemist, but proper storage equipment that passes security checks is expensive.
[Edited on 26-1-2023 by FRTZKNG]
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blogfast25
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FP = foreign policy
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Lionel Spanner
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| Quote: Originally posted by unionised |
The UK still has to pay attention to the EU- they just not longer get the chance to influence it. (This was called "taking back control").
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They're not obliged to enact EU legislation, though.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by sceptic | hey might realise that restricting access to these chemicals probably won't do much to deter terrorism or drug manufacturing, but they might think
that even a small effect is worth pursuing, given that they probably don't think that amateur chemistry is an activity worth preserving.
To prove that amateur chemistry is valuable, the wikipedia page for amateur chemistry has a fairly good list of notable people who worked with it, including several Nobel prize winners, computer
pioneers, and early chemists. |
All true.
In addition I think wondering about the world and universe should really be a universal human right, not tinkered with by petty and ignorant
bureaucrats, wherever and whoever they are.
I've been doing this marvelling and wondering since I was about 14, first in a corner of my dad's garage that he had assigned to me.
[Edited on 26-1-2023 by blogfast25]
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sceptic
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Where could we find more information about the proposed regulations? I looked at the links you gave, and did a search on the EU website, but I wasn't
able to find any details about the proposal. In particular, I couldn't find a page that listed chemicals that would be affected.
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blogfast25
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So laws regarding restriction of chemicals enacted by the EU BEFORE Brexit will now be repealed by the UK, right? No, I didn't think so.
Recently imposed draconian restrictions in the UK on H2SO4 and HNO3 simply follow the EU lead too.
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Herr Haber
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On a sidenote, we're *still* not allowed liquid in aircrafts because of a bogus alert, with terrorists didnt have a plan or a target and nowadays the
chemicals they were supposed to use are even harder to get for the general public.
FFS, detonating H2O2 and Tang powder...
We're not allowed liquids because of that !
The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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paulll
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| Quote: Originally posted by sceptic | | Where could we find more information about the proposed regulations? I looked at the links you gave, and did a search on the EU website, but I wasn't
able to find any details about the proposal. In particular, I couldn't find a page that listed chemicals that would be affected.
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Presumably on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.'
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber |
On a sidenote, we're *still* not allowed liquid in aircrafts because of a bogus alert, with terrorists didnt have a plan or a target and nowadays the
chemicals they were supposed to use are even harder to get for the general public.
FFS, detonating H2O2 and Tang powder...
We're not allowed liquids because of that ! |
It's relatively easy to bring in new legislation but much harder to get rid of obsolete laws. What legislator would take a chance with banning the ban
on (passenger) liquids on board of planes?
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FRTZKNG
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| Quote: Originally posted by FRTZKNG | The EU
Therefore, I beg as many of you to fill out this survey. It should take around 10 to 20 minutes – and maybe do something against the unintentional
prosecution of amateur chemists doing legitimate science at home.
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I may have miscalculated the time it takes to complete this survey. It should take around 40 minutes to an hour; if you take more than 60 minutes the
vote may not be valid. Sorry for the inconvenience.
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FRTZKNG
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| Quote: Originally posted by sceptic | | Where could we find more information about the proposed regulations? I looked at the links you gave, and did a search on the EU website, but I wasn't
able to find any details about the proposal. In particular, I couldn't find a page that listed chemicals that would be affected.
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I couldn't find too much information either, but I'll have a look into it. The listed substances affected are:
Cyanides
Phosphides
Sulfides
Hypochlorites (or similar compounds capable of easily evolving halogens).
Seeing how the infamous "Explosive Precursors" list is structured, even possession may become illegal; with the former three being off-limits to
private individuals. I don't know how they'd deal with FeS, which is easily produced from Fe and S8, and is regularly used in labs to generate H2S on
demand. Cyanides and phosphides don't see regular use in home chemistry, for the better, as with these, things can go wrong very quickly if you don't
know what you're doing. Obtaining these is already hard for a good reason.
Hypochlorite is in a lot of cleaning products and pool disinfectants; so completely outlawing its sale to ordinary customers is very unlikely. (Though
while the rest of the world uses 90+ per cent H2SO4 as a drain cleaner, we do not; but in the case of OCl there aren't many viable alternatives)
They may however restrict the concentration of NaOCl sold to private customers, down to percentages where you'd be dealing with a burdensome amount of
water during syntheses.
I assume the reason for this proposed restriction is to prevent any kind of guerrilla chemical warfare, despite there being no major instances of such
a thing happening in the EU, that I am aware of. Please refer to the Wikipedia article on 'Moral Panic' for further explanation of the reasoning
behind such proposals. Even the Tokyo subway attacks in the 90s were carried out with Sarin, something no one in their right mind would synthesize,
never mind being able to buy the specialty precursors for. And those who don't have a right mind won't care about some stupid EU law anyways.
[Edited on 28-1-2023 by FRTZKNG]
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by FRTZKNG | | Please refer to the Wikipedia article on 'Moral Panic' for further explanation of the reasoning behind such proposals. |
Yeah, that and 'politicians wanting to be seen "doing the right thing"'!   
For backyard scientists, additional risks will now have to be incurred for synthesising must-haves like H2SO4 and
HNO3...
[Edited on 29-1-2023 by blogfast25]
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Waffle_staffel
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I'd just like to point out that non-EU citizens are allowed to submit comments, and 20% of the submissions
are from outside the EU.
As with the airport body scanners, this is not and never was about safety (the first director of DHS, Michael Chertoff, represented the scanner
manufacturer and had a financial interest in their mandated sales). I'd go further and disagree that it's about moral panic and foreign policy, which
is not to say that Western foreign policy doesn't cause the majority of conflict in the world, rather it is about absolute control,
about stifling creativity, curiosity and self-directed education, and ultimately about completely disarming the population and neutering their ability
to mount any form of resistance to tyranny.
Okay, now, everyone take out your safety pencil and a circle of paper and let your displeasure be known.
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BJ68
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May be true for nitric acid, but the ban of sulfuric acid was a farewell gift from UK.
See point 3. in http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=23212&...
Both documents are not available anymore....
Would not be the first time, that governments are playing the game indirectly (in Deutsch "über Bande spielen")
bj68
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blogfast25
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The ban on H2SO4 is now less than 20% (about 2 M).
It will turn all drugs makers into distillers, of course... 
“The only thing that we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history.”
Hegel
[Edited on 30-1-2023 by blogfast25]
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Fantasma4500
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well unrealistic things are happening that i would never have put my money on- and it will take some very unrealistic change in society for this to
turn around, as i see it this is very obviously an agenda thats being pushed worldwide. one small step at a time like boiling a frog slowly
the simplest way around this is to prepare for the worst, to not stash your money but rather turn money into resources that you indeed can use to
survive with and staying far away from densely populated areas, i have seen some claims about statistics and oftenly the year 2030 pops up- thats in 7
years. anywhere in society you look at statistics its going downhill- it will get incredibly bad until it hits rock bottom and can only get better,
their newest sport is to test out travel restriction zones in the UK- now the ambulances cant get around. restrictions and control. they do this
because they MUST- if they dont, their plan has more chance of failure. to me it seems eventually that their plan will fail, much like seeing nature
pierce up through asphalt- eventually.
theyre pushing for digitalization of currency, but do you really need money? we have lived for thousands of years without money. you need food. water.
shelter. you do not need money, and especially not a fancy time-of-the-year jacket
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Syn the Sizer
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I am not European, but I absolutely do not support fascism. Europe is turning into a fascist state. Individual nations under authoritarian rule by the
EU and it's head of state so to say. They have a centralized currency for the EU, and the members national funds have been converted and as explained
to me, essentially EU funds now. Any person who wishes to loose gets the book thrown at them. They do not support individualism and treat immigrants
better than many of the locals who helped build the land to what it is now. They restrict people rights, and I feel practicing chemistry (and all
other sciences) is a right, the first chemists were alchemists working in their shop, some of the greatest discoveries were made by people working at
home. Modern day example is NerdRage perfecting the solvent extraction of potassium and all his video documentation.
Sorry for the political comment as I know politics is strictly prohibited here, but this is a scary truth and I am sure at least some here will agree
and very least not disagree with some of my statements.
I think people world wide need to sign this petition, we are all united in a common hobby, we cannot let our European brothers and sisters lose their
passion without at least trying. We need to realize as this becomes more of a fact in the EU, it will spread to other locals. Who knows, maybe your
country (not the Europe is a country) will be next.
I know if Canada tries I would fight to the end, though I honestly cannot see that happening here. Nothing is explicitly restricted aside for Schedule
substance under the Controlled Drugs and substances Act. Even purchase and synthesis of Class A Precursors are not outright restricted. It is the
seller that is restricted without a licence.
Though some of them may draw attention if you are open about making them like P2P, but they cannot get you with any law as long as you don't sell it.
They may ask to see your log book, which is exactly why we keep log books, and do some surveillance, but there is no probably cause there.
Others (not synthed but bought) like Lysergic acid and tryptamine are similar, there is only 1 product synthed with lysergic acid that is illegal and
2 with tryptamine that are illegal here and the rest not even listed in the act. Sale of products containing pseudo are not restricted or watch, you
can buy a bottle every day and nobody bats an eye. So with how loose our Drugs and Substances Act is, I don't see them restricting farther here
anytime soon.
Edit:
Looks like I can't, maybe only open to EU residents. I still mean what I said though...
[Edited on 14-2-2023 by Syn the Sizer]
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charley1957
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I just submitted the survey from Texas. There were choices you can check and one of them was Non EU Citizen, and I listed USA as my country. There was
a pie chart that showed a percentage of other folks outside the EU had also answered the survey. Couldn’t hurt to try. Mine submitted successfully.
You can’t claim you drank all day if you didn’t start early in the morning.
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charley1957
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There’s plenty of opportunity in the survey to tell your side of things or elaborate on your answers in your own words. I submitted some pretty
lengthy answers and never hit any limits on length of answer.
You can’t claim you drank all day if you didn’t start early in the morning.
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