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Laboratory of Liptakov
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Unfortunately, using calcium nitrate in composition was not tested. Is possible that acetic acid catalyse better properties of guar gum as binder.
But also not tested. Measurement in cavity showing density 1.6 g/cc. Not 1.7. Composition is castable at 80 C without guar gum. Repeatedly.
Composition, respectively his surface is partially hygroscopic. It was observed. Ferocene was not tested. Yes, was tested different acrylic
pigment colors. Yellow, red, green, orange. Interest: This dry (any color) acrylic pigment create
with NH4ClO4 pretty explosive mixture at ratio AP 75 / color 25. Without change of nice color of pigment.
https://www.google.com/search?q=pigment+to+wall+color+paint&...
Maybe colors works as catalyseur of shockwave. (no confirmed, no measured)
But confirmed is better binding effect with acrylic colors. (acryl is binder itself)
Yes, different colors is possible use as identificator.
Else composition can looks: NaClO4 75, DEG 25, liquid pigment (red from link) 11, dH2O 4, guar gum 1. In of part by weight. 20g sensitive on No.8,
confirmed.
[Edited on 10-1-2023 by Laboratory of Liptakov]
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Bert
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I just spent a few minutes going over solubilities of various perchlorates in various liquid fuels.
One combination that struck me: Barium diperchlorate, 125g soluble in 100ml ethanol @ 25° C. And barium (di) perchlorate is DENSE at around 3.1 g/cc.
Not so cheap as technical Sodium perchlorate, toxic like all water soluble barium salts- but also NOT HYGROSCOPIC.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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Is it slightly exotic composition, but should by works. Ba(ClO4)2 with OB + 38.06 is also soluble in acetone (OB - 220.3) ethanol OB - 208.7 on CO2.
In acetone is soluble (as binder) nitrocellulose, camphor, rosin. In ethanol is soluble camphor , rosin. Testing mixture can be:
1) Ba(ClO4)2 80 + 20 ethanol, final OB - 11.29 on CO2.
2) Ba(ClO4)2 80 + acetone 20 .........final OB - 13.61 on CO2.
3) Ba(ClO4)2 75 + ethanol 20 + rosin 5 ..........final OB - 26.39 on CO2
4) Ba(ClO4)2 75 + acetone 20 + nitrocellulose/12,4N/ .... 5 ........final OB - 17.3 on CO2
All mixtures looks no hygroscopic. Problem can be evaporation of solvents. Any way, interesting idea with Barium perchlorate. It seems , that adding
Alu powder is possible.
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Bert
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Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  | Is it slightly exotic composition, but should by works. Ba(ClO4)2 with OB + 38.06 is also soluble in acetone (OB - 220.3) ethanol OB - 208.7 on CO2.
In acetone is soluble (as binder) nitrocellulose, camphor, rosin. In ethanol is soluble camphor , rosin. Testing mixture can be:
1) Ba(ClO4)2 80 + 20 ethanol, final OB - 11.29 on CO2.
2) Ba(ClO4)2 80 + acetone 20 .........final OB - 13.61 on CO2.
3) Ba(ClO4)2 75 + ethanol 20 + rosin 5 ..........final OB - 26.39 on CO2
4) Ba(ClO4)2 75 + acetone 20 + nitrocellulose/12,4N/ .... 5 ........final OB - 17.3 on CO2
All mixtures looks no hygroscopic. Problem can be evaporation of solvents. Any way, interesting idea with Barium perchlorate. It seems , that adding
Alu powder is possible.
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In pyotechnics, it has been traditional to include a small % of a weak acid such as boric acid in compositions containing powdered aluminum and
intended to be bound with water activated adhesives. Mixtures containing nitrates which are prone to evolving ammonia, undergoing self heating and
thermal runaway leading to ignition in particular.
At this point, my questions regarding your HE mixtures video have lead us far from the original topic of this thread- Although it began with sourcing
diethylene glycol to use as an energetic precursor chemical for propellants, we're now talking about fuel use "as is" and detonation rather than
deflagration?
Laboratory of Liptakov, I propose to split this thread, do you concur? If so, should our side trip into HE mixtures with soluble in fuels oxidizer
salts be rejoined with one of the related earlier threads or would you like to start a new thread with this?
[Edited on 1-11-2023 by Bert]
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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The trip can be plugged with some related thread. Thanks, Bert. Maybe after testing described mixture (on BaP base) can be serious reason create a new
thread....
[Edited on 11-1-2023 by Laboratory of Liptakov]
Development of primarily - secondary substances: CHP (2015) neutral CHP and Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023) Nitrocelite and KC primer (2024) Diper
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pjig
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| Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov | Unfortunately, using calcium nitrate in composition was not tested. Is possible that acetic acid catalyse better properties of guar gum as binder.
But also not tested. Measurement in cavity showing density 1.6 g/cc. Not 1.7. Composition is castable at 80 C without guar gum. Repeatedly.
Composition, respectively his surface is partially hygroscopic. It was observed. Ferocene was not tested. Yes, was tested different acrylic
pigment colors. Yellow, red, green, orange. Interest: This dry (any color) acrylic pigment create
with NH4ClO4 pretty explosive mixture at ratio AP 75 / color 25. Without change of nice color of pigment.
https://www.google.com/search?q=pigment+to+wall+color+paint&...
Maybe colors works as catalyseur of shockwave. (no confirmed, no measured)
But confirmed is better binding effect with acrylic colors. (acryl is binder itself)
Yes, different colors is possible use as identificator.
Else composition can looks: NaClO4 75, DEG 25, liquid pigment (red from link) 11, dH2O 4, guar gum 1. In of part by weight. 20g sensitive on No.8,
confirmed.
[Edited on 10-1-2023 by Laboratory of Liptakov] |
It is nice to see some more research on this patent . I have been chasing my tail for years trying to dissect the original patent. It is very
misleading and full of rabbit holes . Using AP as the perchlorate it is very insensitive and I believe a massive primer is needed to get it to go.
One question I have is if there is a gain to using sodium chlorate vs perchlorate. More likely to det with less stimulus , but less powerful.
Solubility is the desired effect for intimate comp .
One other thing that bothered me was what nitrate would be the most effective to cross link the matrix . I fought the calcium nitrate .
The mix never solidified to a solid waxy comp. That was mechanically strong .
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pots-o-potash
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Might substituting NG with ETN be worth investigating for a cordite-type composition? (with adjusted oxygen balance taken into account and possibly a
larger percent of petroleum jelly or mineral oil moderator/stabilizer to adjust burn rate and combustion temperature properties)
NG is known to crystalize out of double base compositions with high NG content when at below freezing temperatures. (Cordite does this, as do some
modern powders, like Hodgedon Lil'Gun) In extreme cases, this can lead to overpressure and/or partial detonation when fired. (flattened and distorted
case heads and malfunctions noted in .300 blackout and .450 bushmaster when used at below freezing conditions, with experiments done by storing
batches of loaded ammo in the freezer able to replicate the behavior)
Petroleum jelly and mineral oil also has issues with sweating out at high ambient temperatures (somewhere above 40C), but this doesn't lead to the
same sorts of high pressure or detonation conditions, and old British handling manuals point to stores of unloaded cordite simply being allowed to
settle at room temperature until the petroleum was reabsorbed. (in loaded ammunition, this wasn't necessary)
So, with ETN being sold at all relevant ambient temperatures, it should be able to be dissolved in acetone along with NC and be made near homogeneous,
then stay such when the solvent evaporates.
Additionally, since both NC and ETN can be made to precpitate as fine pulp, strands, or particles when dissolved (or gelatinized) in solvent, then
diluted with water, they could be made to co-precipitate in a relatively homogenous mixture that would be finely devided and porous, and more easily
able to incorporate petroleum jelly or mineral oil into it. (which are poorly soluble in acetone and more difficult to hmogenize; albeit I suppose
forming an emulsion of PJ/mineral oil in acetone would be another option)
There's also some historical compositions (developed and patented around the same time as Cordite and Ballistite in the 1880s/90s) that used castor
oil as a moderant/stabilizer in double-base compositions and possibly some single base ones. That would be much better soluble in acetone, but I'd be
a bit concerned over long term oxidative stability. (though normally stored in air-tight containers and even non-air-tight ammunition has low
permeability, so diffusion of oxygen into it would be quite slow)
One might also experiment with semi-smokeless powders incorporating potassium (or possibly sodium) nitrate into gellatinized NC, or similarly with
nitate+Charcoal mixture with a relatively high oxygen balance. (charcoal itself, including the phenolic/aromatic fraction of it, should have some
stabilizer and moderator effects on NC, while nitrates would increase the oxygen balance and make combustion properties somewhat closer to black
powder or black powder substitutes, or that of 1890s era semi-smokeless powders)
Note: most commercial semi-smokeless powders from the 1890s (like Lesmok or King's SemiSmokeless) also contained sulfur and would thus be
significantly more corrosive and potentially less stable than the above suggestion. (and were also known to be more prone than black powder to
accidental ignition and explosion during commercial manufacture, likely due to increase risk of sulfur + NC dust ignition even worse than that of
conventional black powder: sulfur dust being the likely main source of static electric spark ignition accidents as in dust-air explosions; as black
powder itself, even that ground to fine dust and without graphite, can't be ignited with high voltage static spark/arc directly)
The other type of early smokeless or semi-smokeless powder from as far back as the 1860s was based on nitrated wood meal (effectively a complex
mixture of nitrolignin and nitrocellulose, likely containing a mixture of nitrrophenols and polyphenols). This often had potassium or barium nitrate
added to it and could be partially gelatinized with solvent (usually ether-alcohol) or left as porous woody granules as earliest examples of "Schultz"
type powders used.
(Schultz powder was the most common/popular powder of this type, and the earliest to be commercialized, parimarily as a shotgun powder, potentially
used in pistol cartridges or carefully used in reduced loads for some rifle cartidges as well, as later smokeless shotgun powders were or still are)
There was at least one major attempt at using wood-based powder in refined by an Austrian inventor, fully gelatinized forms, cut, rolled, or extruded
into various particle shapes and sizes and made suitable for high pressure rifle cartridges of the day (in the 1870s), but Austro-Hungarian military
weren't sufficiently interested to pursue this further and the inventor didn't try to commercialize it (unlike Schultz).
I can also only assume that Ferdinand Mannlicher was unaware of such developments, otherwise he'd have been extremely interested in adapting such
early smokeless powders to his attempts at self-loading mechanisms he was working on, with use of black powder being a major limiting factor at the
time.
Chlorates and perchlorates should be avoided in any case corrosion would be a problem, as chloride residue is really hard on iron/steel parts and more
difficult to clean than the highly soluble potassium or sodium carbonate residue left by nitrate compositions. (and the alkaline nature has some
corrosion inhibiting properties with steel, while avoiding the free elemental sulfur content present in conventional black powder residue, and to
lesser extent the sulfate and sulfide content; though hypothetically a very low sulfur composition might avoid free sulfur and be less problematic,
it would still probably hurt NC stability to some extent due to trace acid content)
This is, of course, aside from the other dangers specific to chlorates, particularly with anything that can produce trace acids (as NC can). Though a
charcoal + chlorate composition or mix of chlorate and nitrate might have good performance to smoke output ratio, and likely more tolerable flame
temperatures for the nitrate+chlorate mix than chlorate alone (plus alkaline residue would reduce chloride corrosion), it still probably wouldn't be
that practical of a propellant compared to simply using a larger quantity of a sulfurless BP derivative alone. (or compared to using some NC content
to boost energy density and reduce smoke)
Though, for historical investigative purposes, a chlorate-doped sulfurless BP composition as a "what if" for the early 1800s might be more
interesting, particularly once percussion caps were invented. (Berthollet's attempt to use KClO3 as a direct replacement for KNO3 in gunpowder in 1788
was obviously not a sensible composition, particularly using an existing gunpowder stamp mill ... though the realization of friction and impact
sensitivity of chlorate+sulfur compositions might have inspired an earlier development of percussion caps)
(this is well outside the main topic of this thread, and more of an alternate history sort of topic)
I do mention the semi-smokeless powder type compositions as relevant here as the residue and smoke produced should be more compatible with and less
harsh on designs and cartridges intended for smokeless powder (including less likely to foul mechanisms), potentially even some self-loading designs.
(with the residue fine and soft enough to not build up to the point of malfunction within the operating mechanisms or gas tubes; plus be low corrosion
enough to avoid wear/erosion even of gas systems not using stainless steel; where presence of sulfur or chlorides could cause significantly worse high
temperature corrosion during operation)
Also note: even the chloride (from chlorate), sulfur, and powdered glass components of corrosive type military primers contributed significantly to
bore erosion (and especially) throat erosion, especially when combined with hotter burning double-base powders. (many examples of double-base poweders
of the 1890s through 1930s known for heavy throat or bore wear were shown to no longer cause such wear with non-corrosive primers introduced in the
inter-war period, though a handful of very hot burning, high NG content powders, like "Sharpshooter" were still erosive with non-corrosive primers,
though likely not as badly so)
(paradoxically, the hottest burning, highest NG content powders of any given burn rate or type also produced much higher velocity/energy for any given
chamber pressure, and also benefited more from longer barrels, likely in part due to the higher combustion temperatures maintaining the gas pressure
for longer, as also happens with black powder to a more dramatic extent for short vs long barrels)
I also mention sodium nitrate rather than just potassium nitrate as it's lower molar mass and greater density should make for better energy density by
mass and volume (though combustion and decomposition properties differ a bit from KNO3). Its critical relative humidity is also high enough to be
non-hygroscopic in a variety of dry/arid climates for most of the year (so even humidity ingress into slightly permeable cartridges would be avoided
so long as not stored out in the open during rain, or a particularly damp shed/shack/garage).
The CRH is around 72 to 73% near room temperature.
It also doesn't form hydrates, so any transient humidity that does get absorbed is also emitted more easily when conditions drop below the equilibrium
relative humidity point. (though in severe cases, with partial deliquescence occurring, sufficient to exceed the absorbent properties of a charocal
matrix, you'd end up with efflorescence and change in the combustion properties, plus possible corrosion of brass)
Still, the conditions suitable for sodium nitrate are vastly broader than most other nitrates, and worth considering under the right climate
conditions. Barium nitrate was used historically in the 1890s for semi-smokeless powder, but is more costly and notably toxic.
Ammonium nitrate has a critical relative humidity closer to 59% near room temperature, limiting its non-hygroscopic conditions a great deal more, plus
it's especially corrosive to brass and can cause stress corrosion cracking. (steel cases might be less problematic, and tend to be coated already,
though additional paraffin wax or other coating might be better, and tiny flaws in the coating or scratches caused during loading friction would be
less problematic than brass)
Trace decomposition of ammonia from trace alkali components (as with mineral content in charcoal) also isn't a problem for steel where it is for
brass.
Of course, there's also AN's crystal phase change issues if not stored exclusively at cooler ambient temperatures (or basically limited to -16C to
+32C storage conditions), unless a suitable double-salt is formed for stability. (KNO3 can be used, NaNO3 can't)
Though for lose, fine powder derivatives of ammonpulver, the crystal change might not be so much of a problem.
Ignition of pure AN+Charcoal compositions are very difficult, even confined in cartridges and need either very powerful primers or a booster charge to
allow proper ignition. (this could include conventional black powder or sulfurless BP-type composition, or conventional smokeless powder) Or a portion
of sodium or potassium nitrate could be included in the AN based propellant to make ignition qualities somewhat closer to more conventional sulfurless
black powder type compositions. (precipitation of an AN-KNO3 double-salt into charcoal might be one option addressing the crystal phase change and
ignition difficulties, though not the hygroscopic or corrosion issues, and partial deliquescence and subsequent recrystalization could lead to
separation of the double salt; so preserving the temperature-phase stable qualities would require consistently dry or air-tight containment of such
double salt compositions)
That said, straight ammonpulver type compositions should be completely smokeless (aside from trace mineral content from charcoal) and also have
non-corrosive combustion products, provided the oxygen balance is negative and decomposition is complete.
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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You have just written a thesis on the topic of energy materials.......
Development of primarily - secondary substances: CHP (2015) neutral CHP and Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023) Nitrocelite and KC primer (2024) Diper
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