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xxxxx
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Virally vectored immunocontraception
I was interested in whether it might be practical to modify a conventional virus that affects humans to cause infertility by modifying the virus
to produce either proteins that would cause antibodies to bind to the zona pellucida blocking sperm from attaching to the egg or a chemical that would
artificially induce the cortical reaction to make the egg impenetrable to sperm or both.
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battoussai114
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Anyway, possible? Yes! Worth it? Not at all.
You see, we've been getting our antibodies to target what we want for quite a long time by vaccinating ourselves. But just by seeing how slow vaccine
research is and how vaccines that use a proven technique sometimes go wrong I'm pretty sure it's just easier to use the good 'n old condom, surgery or the hormones as contraceptive methods.
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ziqquratu
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I think there's an important difference here between immunisation and antibody-mediated inactivation. In the former, you're training the immune system
to recognise and produce antibodies against a particular antigen; in the latter, you're simply introducing the antibodies and bypassing the immune
response all together. It's more comparable to things like the anti-D shot, in which antibodies against the rhesus protein (the "+" or "-" in your
blood group) are given to a rhesus-negative mother who has a rhesus-positive child. If the mother isn't given the antibody injection, then she may
develop immunity to the rhesus protein, meaning that if she conceives another rhesus-positive child her immune system may target it and cause
miscarriage.
Regardless, even if the science behind the idea could be considered dubious (and I don't think that that is true here), "vaccine research is slow" and
"vaccines can go wrong" are not arguments against it. After all, those statements are true of all drug development, but that doesn't stop us searching
for new drugs!
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Bert
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(In)voluntary human extinction movement?
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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battoussai114
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Quote: Originally posted by ziqquratu  | I think there's an important difference here between immunisation and antibody-mediated inactivation. In the former, you're training the immune system
to recognise and produce antibodies against a particular antigen; in the latter, you're simply introducing the antibodies and bypassing the immune
response all together. It's more comparable to things like the anti-D shot, in which antibodies against the rhesus protein (the "+" or "-" in your
blood group) are given to a rhesus-negative mother who has a rhesus-positive child. If the mother isn't given the antibody injection, then she may
develop immunity to the rhesus protein, meaning that if she conceives another rhesus-positive child her immune system may target it and cause
miscarriage.
Regardless, even if the science behind the idea could be considered dubious (and I don't think that that is true here), "vaccine research is slow" and
"vaccines can go wrong" are not arguments against it. After all, those statements are true of all drug development, but that doesn't stop us searching
for new drugs! |
He is asking about using viruses to produce proteins that would trick the immune system into thinking the reproductive system(parts of it) is a
foreign. Same concept as immunization in which you make your body recognize the proteins on the virus as a foreign and respond to them before it kills
you, except in this case you'd be using it to purposely get an auto-immune response due to the protein/chemical you'd be injecting yourself in the
hope of making your immune system act.
And yes, the statements are true to all drug development, which is why you won't get a big lab to spend money on it when they can use the non-novel
very well established and cheaper method since, as you may know, medical research tends to be done with the purpose of getting that money thingy, the
one makes the world go round.
Besides, the vaccine that caused the body to go around attacking its own receptors making people narcoleptic is an argument to show that sometimes
unrelated markers are similar enough to be attacked by your own immune system when it should be targeting the foreign influenza virus... now imagine
trying to make your body attack parts of itself without going haywire and destroying everything in the way. IF this is possible, it would be hard and
medical researchers would probably be more interested in using this sort of concept to fight something like cancer, which doesn't have a completely
reliable treatment, instead of reinventing the wheel when its not necessary. And a google search shows that this is what they're doing.
[Edited on 5-8-2015 by battoussai114]
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crazyboy
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Yes something like what you are describing is possible and apparently has undergone considerable investigation as an alternative for castration,
animal control, and human contraception. Most studies seem to be focused on vaccines rather than viruses for obvious reasons.
I attached a paper of interest though I only skimmed it it seems they had the virus express zona pellucida proteins and let the organism mount the
immune response rather than have the virus itself encode an antigen.
This Wikipedia article also has a lot of info https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunocontraception
Attachment: Immunocontraceptive effects on female rabbits infected with recombinant myxoma virus expressing rabbit ZP2 or ZP3.pdf (547kB)
This file has been downloaded 613 times
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Metacelsus
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Wow. This could really fuel those conspiracy nuts who think polio vaccination is a Western plot to sterilize Third World countries . . .
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poliomyelitis_eradication#Oppo...)
Anyway, seems like an interesting immunological idea. Potential side effects could be a problem, though -- how selective can you make it?
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ziqquratu
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| Quote: Originally posted by battoussai114 |
He is asking about using viruses to produce proteins that would trick the immune system into thinking the reproductive system(parts of it) is a
foreign. Same concept as immunization in which you make your body recognize the proteins on the virus as a foreign and respond to them before it kills
you, except in this case you'd be using it to purposely get an auto-immune response due to the protein/chemical you'd be injecting yourself in the
hope of making your immune system act. |
Ah, you're right... I misread the original post. Apologies!
Despite that, novel methods of contraception, which would contribute to their profitability, are of major interest to drug developers. The idea of a
male contraceptive pill, for example, is something that a lot of researchers are interested in. For females, a new contraceptive that was more
effective, more convenient or simply had fewer side effects than hormonal contraceptives would get a large bite of the market. In this example, I
imagine many people would consider permanent contraception via immunisation to be better than having it done surgically.
This is not to say that the idea here would result in any of these outcomes; just that novel therapies would not be ignored because they would, in
fact, have potential for profitability. The fact that we have a reliable treatment for a problem does not preclude interest in finding new ones -
particularly if the new ones can be patented and yet still compete for market share because of their advantages over the current (generic) drugs...
As you state, the possibility of the immune system going after self in a harmful way is significant and well known, and people are certainly trying to
harness that. That said, it might be entirely reasonable to expect that you could achieve selectivity in a case like this - it's not unreasonable to
expect that sperm may produce proteins solely for recognising eggs, and vice versa, and that these would not appear on any other cells. And if it is
possible to target modified self proteins found on tumor cells, why not go after rare self proteins on gametes?
Finally, the link crazyboy provided proved interesting - and demonstrates that the original idea is not only not crazy, but has in fact been seriously
studied. And, from what I gather, autoimmune disorders have not been the major stumbling block - rather, poor efficacy appears to be the major issue.
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xxxxx
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The reason I am interested in PZP or cortical reaction infertility is that it is essential a form of barrier contraception which can be defeated by
microsurgery, to mechanically introduce the sperm into the egg.
This procedure would be expensive, maybe US$100K, so that the cost of having a child would be up front and prohibitive for the vast majority of
persons.
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crazyboy
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| Quote: Originally posted by xxxxx | The reason I am interested in PZP or cortical reaction infertility is that it is essential a form of barrier contraception which can be defeated by
microsurgery, to mechanically introduce the sperm into the egg.
This procedure would be expensive, maybe US$100K, so that the cost of having a child would be up front and prohibitive for the vast majority of
persons. |
You lost me. First of all are you sure immunocontraception can be defeated by microsurgery? After all an immunogenic response to the ovum may prevent
adhesion to the uterine lining or may induce attack by natural killer cells.
Second why would this be a good thing? I haven't figured out how you are imaging that this is used. If it's an alternative contraceptive I think a
vaccine is a much better choice than a virus. But I get the vague impression you are imaging that this would be a virus that is released into the wild
causing sterilization which is only reversible by the very wealthy.
Which is it?
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franklyn
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New and improved methods of contraception are not objectionable , infertility as a bio weapon is a crime against
humanity. The prospect of covert actors fielding do it yourself biological weapons for mass effect is one of the motives justifying the surveillance
state we now find ourselves in.
Techniques to Disrupt, Deviate and Seize Control of
an Internet Forum In case you wonder W T F ! is going on here
?
www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-10-28/cointelpro-techniques-dilution-misdirection-and-control-internet-forum https://web.archive.org/web/20120814124000/www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/08/the-15-rules-of-internet-disinformation.html
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xxxxx
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For involuntary sterilization to be a crime there would have to be an inalienable right to reproduce.
If persons can be executed or imprisoned, losing the right to life and liberty, the right to reproduce cannot be absolute.
Under exceptional circumstances it can be lost.
There are other rights to consider, such as the right not to be born into a life too terrible to endure (about what would cause an ordinary person
to commit suicide) and the right not to be forced to reproduce against one's will.
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franklyn
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It is the practice that such decisions are the province of individual choice.
Where this is not so , cannot by any measure be considered a free society.
Techniques to Disrupt, Deviate and Seize Control of
an Internet Forum In case you wonder W T F ! is going on here
?
www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-10-28/cointelpro-techniques-dilution-misdirection-and-control-internet-forum https://web.archive.org/web/20120814124000/www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/08/the-15-rules-of-internet-disinformation.html
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xxxxx
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Well, suppose people started doing incest en mass as an act of civil disobedience with the specific intention of producing the most deformed
offspring possible.
Since incest is illegal, for the purpose of preventing persons from being born with inbreeding genetic disorders, would the state be justified in
using this method to control the situation.
Why or why not.
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crazyboy
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| Quote: Originally posted by xxxxx | For involuntary sterilization to be a crime there would have to be an inalienable right to reproduce.
If persons can be executed or imprisoned, losing the right to life and liberty, the right to reproduce cannot be absolute.
Under exceptional circumstances it can be lost.
There are other rights to consider, such as the right not to be born into a life too terrible to endure (about what would cause an ordinary person
to commit suicide) and the right not to be forced to reproduce against one's will.
|
You've got some bad logic going on here.
Just because a right is not absolute does not mean violating it should not be criminal. In the US it is illegal to divulge classified information, or
specifically threaten someone with bodily harm (assault). But it is still illegal for the government to prosecute you for expressing a view they don't
agree with.
Who has the right "not to be born into a life too terrible to endure" as you put it? By definition such an entity does not yet exist (unless you count
a fetus). I would agree that one has the right to not reproduce, but you make that choice for someone when you sterilize them.
As for mass incest, I think you're example is rather absurd. That said incest laws vary between states and are based on customs as well as science.
Your argument is basically, "people shouldn't be allowed to give birth if they have a reasonable exception of illness" OK, so where do you draw the
line? Should people with family history of cancer, Huntington's, Alzheimers, dwarfism etc. be allowed to reproduce? An unborn person cannot make
decisions so within reason this decision is that of would be parents.
Perhaps if we were on a space station with limited resources and people refused to stop having children which would imminently result it everyone
dying such a virus might be an acceptable option (Earth is not such a system). Releasing a viral agent is rightly an act of bioterrorism, let alone a
virus that induces sterility.
[Edited on 13-8-2015 by crazyboy]
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xxxxx
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OK, then how about overpopulation? Is this an absurd concern too? Is it realistic to believe that people will limit their reproduction to
sustainable levels voluntarily?
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mayko
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*wheezing* where's jessica hyde???
al-khemie is not a terrorist organization
"Chemicals, chemicals... I need chemicals!" - George Hayduke
"Wubbalubba dub-dub!" - Rick Sanchez
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unionised
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| Quote: Originally posted by xxxxx | | OK, then how about overpopulation? Is this an absurd concern too? Is it realistic to believe that people will limit their reproduction to
sustainable levels voluntarily? |
In many places they already do.
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draculic acid69
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Indeed.
I wonder if this person intends to mass vaccinate people in some
messed up auswitch type experiment. I'm very suspicious of intentions here
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xxxxx
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So, then are you going to tell me that life is beautiful and the earth can support 100 billion people?
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unionised
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| Quote: Originally posted by xxxxx | | So, then are you going to tell me that life is beautiful and the earth can support 100 billion people? |
No.
Just that wiping out the whole species (and possibly one or two closely related ones) is not a good idea.
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xxxxx
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I want to refer to two laws that currently exist, the motorcycle helmet laws and the laws against suicide.
If you have a motorcycle accident and break an arm or a leg it will heal, however if you injure your head the part of your brain that is damaged will
not repair itself and it will be society that has to spoon feed you your oatmeal for the rest of your life.
A sizable part of the reason why suicide is illegal is the same, that the attempt will not be successful and the person will be permanently
incapacitated requiring society's assistance for the remainder of his or her life.
The likelihood of producing a child who will become a lifelong dependent (or worse) is great enough for the state to intervene in the autonomous
actions of individuals.
[Edited on 27-10-2021 by xxxxx]
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woelen
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Let's start with intervening in xxxxx's fertility.
Is that a good thing? Let xxxxx decide . . .
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xxxxx
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Since having children is so important to you, say you have a daughter and when she turns 13 she gets pregnant and has a baby and another baby every
year after that. That would be a good thing and you'd be happy, right?
It is unconscionable to bring new life into this world when a billion people are starving, not only for ignoring their plight but additionally because
this could also be the fate of your child.
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violet sin
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Yeah, having children is important to me. They are terrific tiny people, worth working hard for and enjoyable to get to know them grow up. I
wouldn't trade my children for anything. No one getting pregnant at 13 here... Not sure how they crank out a child per year indefinitely. I'm spread
thin with three, four would be insane, but two perhaps too few.
There are plenty of people who by choice or by chance, get none. Plenty of people don't have partners period. Saying the world is all tapped out and
useless sounds like someone gave up. Teach the new crowd of people to respect the place and each other, can be a better future.
It's unconscionable to allow people to starve, when we have the means to not. I however am not super well versed in the logistics of could versus
cash supply of vital food goods. Hate to get caught out of my depth.
One point is .. why would you get to choose for anyone else .. your perceived issues are yours, so don't procreate if you think it's a bad idea. But
don't try to tell others they can't because you think it's futile. I don't think that's a supportable viewpoint. Moderation, sure, quota, perhaps,
ban... Good luck. Forced chemical sterilization a fucking crime. Viral infection forced sterilization... Possible extinction?
Is there really an almost 6year gap in the middle of this thread?! Wowza, that's some pause.
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