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Keras
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Quote: Originally posted by Hoffit  | | It seems laws are implemented differently in different countries. It seems on some countries only sales is restricted while on some countries
possession is illegal. |
AFAIK, there's nothing about possession in the regulation. It's just about selling. Anything else, like prohibiting possession, is out of scope.
[Edited on 26-5-2021 by Keras]
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Hoffit
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I think too that EU regulation has nothing about possession. But for example in my country the law is implemented partially by regulating possession.
Therefore no possession for me. I think other countries have different implementations in the local law and this does not apply to everyone in the EU.
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Herr Haber
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If I remember correctly the exact same thing that happened for HNO3 will happen for H2SO4.
Year 1: Sale is forbidden
Year 2: Possession is forbidden
As far as I know, the EU directive must be transposed in national laws so it should be almost the same in all countries.
Fun fact, I now work in the compliance sector so I hear a lot about EU directives and how they are transposed. There can be some minor differences.
The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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Keras
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I’m not sure possession can be forbidden everywhere in Europe. Depending on the country, that provision can be unconstitutional.
I’m not even sure the regulation limiting purchase would survive the EU court of justice scrutiny, by the way.
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Herr Haber
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Well, you're probably right on your first statement.
Not so sure about the second as a directive is basically a law that supersedes national laws and being a EU law it would probably not be accepted for
trial by the EU court of justice.
I'll keep that in the back of my head though as I'm no lawyer but my new job makes me talk to lawyers and people from legal all day long.
The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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Keras
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| Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber | Well, you're probably right on your first statement.
Not so sure about the second as a directive is basically a law that supersedes national laws and being a EU law it would probably not be accepted for
trial by the EU court of justice. |
Quote (from the EU court of justice page): ‘Private individuals can also ask the Court to annul an EU act that directly concerns them.’
I’m convinced we could pretty much ask for an annulation, especially since the licencing mechanism does not give us access to the ‘full-fledged’
material. Every European state grants gun licences to people who practise shooting as a sport. Would they be satisfied if they were granted the
‘carry’ part, but be obliged to use blanks? That’s exactly what's the directive is about.
I’m sure the court acknowledges (as the British Royal Chem Society did) the value of a scientific hobby like ours. Besides, I’m positive everyone
would be happy to apply for a licence, even at the expense of a thorough background vetting (much like what is required to get a gun carrying
licence). Since it can be easily proven that 98% sulphuric acid (and 67% nitric) is absolutely required for a number of (simple) reactions, the
reasoning underpinning the 40%/5% limitation cannot hold for people who are properly licenced. It implies that, even when licenced, said person is
suspect of carrying out unlawful pursuits. This is in blatant violation of our rights.
I mean, I don’t care if selling to general public is restricted, as long as I can apply freely for an exemption by proving I’m outside the scope
of the text. Which is not possible right now.
[Edited on 27-5-2021 by Keras]
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Fyndium
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Possession has 1 year transfer period, after which it is illegal to possess stronger than designated % without license.
Cheaper to establish a company than get any license whatsoever. Any legal business to excuse for the use of the reagent is valid for legal protection.
Nitric acid is used as pickling acid, so is sulfuric, and also as an electrolyte for anodizing. If one claims to do any sort of research for business
purposes, there is a legal excuse.
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Praxichys
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| Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium | | Possession has 1 year transfer period, after which it is illegal to possess stronger than designated % without license. |
This is the same kind of bogus stuff they're doing with certain gun parts in the US. What happens if you have a liter of acid and are unaware of this
change of law?
Classically, Ignorantia juris non excusat, so you just have to accept that someday you might have done everything right and still be an
unwitting felon.
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Belowzero
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So we can store/possess acids below a certain percentage..
*Dillutes all concentrated acids*
"Sir you are storing 100L of acids in your house"
"Well I am not allowed to own it above a certain percentage.."
"You are not allowed to store 100L of acid in a domestic environment without a permit, you are violating the rules, you are coming with us"
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Fyndium
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I'd rather get a survivalist burial cylinder and stash my acid than dilute or get rid of it.
It's stupid what you have to store for a bad day in the modern day's world. I'm running out of burial ground soon. 
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pneumatician
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Mood: ■■■■■■■■■■ INRI ■■■■■■■■■■ ** Igne Natura Renovatur Integra **
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it's time for a hobby chemist lobby? is difficult but nobody here worked in EU gov's agencies? nobody here is a lawyer? learn from the Catalan
independentism... for every ispain-EU movement against Catalonia, this guys make 10 appeals against the "law" :-D
for now it looks like they have all won.
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stoichiometric_steve
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Directives are meant to be implemented into national law. They do not supersede anything because they're not laws.
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VeritasC&E
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We are slaves in a dictatorship. Truth doesn't matter here. Applying for a licence is collaborating with those criminals and their disgusting system,
and sooner rather than later Karma will blow back in the faces of each and every collaborator. Begging for justice to those people is the same as
begging the weapons industry for world peace. In these times life will be unforgiving, harshly just. Exciting times.
Wake up if you want to start living.
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VeritasC&E
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See the naïve drive in yourselves not for what you were educated to believe it is, but for what it is: A selfish egoistic weak human drive to look
away, thinking this will affect others and that you could escape it. I have this in me like anyone else here. It's not about a difference between
people but between the choice they want to make. This corruption is what leads men to slowly dig their own grave by lack of integrity. Ultimately
natural justice is inescapable, in deeper and harsher ways than we can see.
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macckone
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They cannot ban possession of sulfuric acid of less than 35%, everyone with a car battery would be in violation.
If they make an exception for batteries, store your sulfuric acid in battery cases.
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unionised
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| Quote: Originally posted by macckone | They cannot ban possession of sulfuric acid of less than 35%, everyone with a car battery would be in violation.
If they make an exception for batteries, store your sulfuric acid in battery cases. |
They can, and do.
They distinguish between a "thing" and a "stuff".
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Fyndium
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The ban itself has been instituted mainly against politically motivated violent attacks from radicalized entities, and it also slows down amateur
energetics makers and acid attacks.
It has been a long tradition of structural corruption and double standards in continental Europe. One with some money and contacts can get most
anything at decent price. But still, the most simple and legal way to obtain these reagents is by establishing a simple company or a professional
entrepreneurship.
A formal intended purpose of use is exactly what you state that it will be used, and if you have a research company, you will need it as a laboratory
reagent. Research means that you are developing something that is not intended to produce instant cashflow, but for future business, hence running the
company as zero profit entity is no issue. This can actually turn to be your protective in case of some sort of investigation, because you have actual
formally filed legal entity, and you don't have to claim to be a self-taught amateur hobbyist with chaotic measures.
The common image of people for any company is an actual office or an industrial warehouse. Yes indeed, many companies are mere lockbox corporations,
existing only on paper, or at your tabletop with zero physical property, but are still as legally binding as any bigger physical company. Lockbox
companies can also own stock controlled subsidiaries for tax or liability purposes.
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macckone
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| Quote: Originally posted by unionised | | Quote: Originally posted by macckone | They cannot ban possession of sulfuric acid of less than 35%, everyone with a car battery would be in violation.
If they make an exception for batteries, store your sulfuric acid in battery cases. |
They can, and do.
They distinguish between a "thing" and a "stuff".
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Store it in a battery case.
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Fyndium
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I would bet that most of the time turning a lead-acid battery into a battery-shaped sulfuric acid bottle would be neglected if looked upon. Even
smaller battery can house some liters of that stuff.
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BJ68
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| Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium | | But still, the most simple and legal way to obtain these reagents is by establishing a simple company or a professional entrepreneurship.
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That way may be simple....but it´s a pain in the butt and an expensive way to be on the legal side...
I am trying to set up a photography lab/lab in Bavaria, which is completely legal...and now the whole shit kicks in, like storing of chemicals,
ventilation, fire protection and so on.
Authorities will check that....and the prices e.g. for "Safety cabinets F90" are not so cheap: https://www.protecto.de/en/online-shop/safety-cabinets/safet...
Trying to make this https://illumina-chemie.de/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=4590 (whole thread) in bigger sizes....or try to sell prints of https://illumina-chemie.de/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=5721 and https://illumina-chemie.de/viewtopic.php?p=40109#p40109
One problem for me that this projects are covering a lot of regulations and if you are a professional, you can not ignore it....
bj68
[Edited on 13-7-2021 by BJ68]
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Fyndium
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Not sure what regulations are in every country, but unless handling larger amounts of hazardous materials, there might not be any regulations at all.
At least where I live, housing small amounts (liter scale) of chemicals is not restricted not private nor business. So far I have invested about 20€
for all my business related stuff because I got my company registration for free due to a campaign under covid crisis by the employment office, and
have used not even an hour to store ledger records, which are basically nil because I have not sold anything "yet". I basically file a report to tax
office every 3 months with "nothing to declare" script.
Stores are required safety cabinets for flammables, but they usually stock hundreds to thousands of liters of those materials. It's good to find these
tresholds, because most company regulation is aimed for actual, large volume trade like I mentioned earlier, and they expect you handling tons of
chemicals in routine basis. Regulations here actually start from one ton of flammables for businesses. This cannot be done in your home, but a
tabletop lab? No problem.
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BJ68
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In which state are you and which company have you registered?
Here @ my home town the "regulatory agency" (Ordnungsamt) makes a big issue of fire protection.
Perhaps I have to talk to them and look what they want and than react...
bj68
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WolfPack
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Hm. This topic is way more complex than it looks like (and it already looks complicated). Solutions that work for a given country or for somebody in
particular won't work for other people. But based on what I know about the EU entities let me put my two cents.
For instance, Fyndium and others have suggested to register a company, because it should be almost free as long as it doesn't generate profits. I've
been told (and verified) that for some countries this is true, but for others, registering a company or even working as a freelancer isn't exactly
cheap, costing up to several thousands of € per year even if your "business" is actively losing money. You've got a calculator for EU countries
here: https://freelance.tax/en/my/EUR/0/month/. The table may take a while to load, but if it doesn't, just click on the "€ 0" to reveal the form
field, write 0 again and press enter to recalculate. The important part for each city is the "Sole trader" column. The thing is, you would still need
to pay health taxes, social and pension contributions, etc., depending on the case.
On a more holistic level, I think one option would be to file a complaint through the European Ombudsman website, arguing that this regulation wrongly assumes that "there exists no legitimate use by members of the general public"
for these substances above the stated thresholds, and would be treating owners as criminals by default. The question is, against what entity? The
European Comission? The European Parliament and the Council of the EU (signatories)?
Another possible option would be to get in touch with the department that created the first draft of the directive. According to the procedure section of the Eur-Lex webiste for the regulation, it was proposed by the Directorate-General for Migration and Home Affairs. From its
organigram, its relevant unit for this matter seems to be be the one dealing with Organised Crime and Drugs Policy, which is currently lead by Dr.
Floriana Sipala. Here is a list of the staff working on that unit as well. Her email can be found on the Internet (e.g. in this open letter), but if you read that letter, it turns out that several NGOs and platforms are complaining that their opportunities to provide
input before the agenda on drugs for the next years is approved have been hindered by the new procedures. And the thing with this option is, to tell
them what? They already did an impact asessment, and knew some people, including those etching circuit boards at home, would be affected. The summary report for the public consultation phase of this regulation states that "Moreover, some respondents highlighted that following the entry into force of
the Regulation and the national implementation measures, some people had to look for alternative substances in order to continue
carrying out their hobbies or other legal activities, reportedly entailing some additional costs." It is true however that just 6
individuals sent their answers during that survey.
It would also be possible to launch an European Citizens' Initiative, but it isn't easy though. It requires the support of at least one million citizens, and the signatures collected in
seven countries must be above a given threshold. The threshold tables are here. Taking into account the level of chemophobia most societies have, I'm not so sure about this one.
Another problem with any solution is that many amateurs don't want their names to show up on a list or give clues about their hobby, just in case,
so...
There are other options as well. Anyway, legislations tend to be copied and adapted between different countries, so it doesn't matter if you live in
the states, the EU, Japan or anywhere else. Apologies for the lack of optimism.
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teodor
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Thank you WoflPack, this is a good list of possible actions which could be taken.
The situation as I see it is that, at least, in some countries, there is a difference between "law" and "penalty". So some things are illegal but you
never (practically) will get fine if you do according to common practice (or will get it if you are "extremely lucky" only).
I think now for amateurs the way to be "behind the law but not accessible to punishment" is the most economical one - we have not so much time ever
for hobby and don't like to spend more time on legal issues.
If the situation will get worse we can probably think to create some groups to represent our interests, but now we have not many people who are ready
to participate (or pay any fee or spend any time) because of what I mentioned.
The only one practical way, for now, is to join the efforts of some already established groups in similar areas. I know one such group by the way. So
we can try to contact them and ask about their experience etc.
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Fyndium
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| Quote: Originally posted by WolfPack | | For instance, Fyndium and others have suggested to register a company, because it should be almost free as long as it doesn't generate profits. I've
been told (and verified) that for some countries this is true, but for others, registering a company or even working as a freelancer isn't exactly
cheap, costing up to several thousands of € per year even if your "business" is actively losing money. You've got a calculator for EU countries
here: https://freelance.tax/en/my/EUR/0/month/. The table may take a while to load, but if it doesn't, just click on the "€ 0" to reveal the form
field, write 0 again and press enter to recalculate. The important part for each city is the "Sole trader" column. The thing is, you would still need
to pay health taxes, social and pension contributions, etc., depending on the case. |
I don't know who and how these numbers are calculated, but they seem to exclusively presume that you live off your business. In reality, you can do a
dayjob or live off your investments and hold a business entity without never making a dime. Few people though establish a business entity just for
fun, usually they attempt to pursue income with it. If you hire an employee, things escalate immediately and exponentially.
I live in a country where that list would put a cost of a lot over 2k€ per year of costs for a company. How much do I pay in reality? Zero. I only
file annual report to tax office that I have zero income, and it has been so for almost 5 years now. A company in it's most simple form is just a file
number in a database. Even the most institutional form of business entity costs about 500€ to establish with all the paperwork and other stuff and
requires more than 1 person to sign the papers, but after that, it's another annual report, and that's it. And this is a legal person, which has it's
own economy and responsibilities. The company board can simply decide not to do anything, and if they do revenue, they can decide not to pay off
anything from company, even better, they can buy stuff to the company and get tax reductions. A personal company does not need any that sort of stuff,
but it can get tax reductions as well. So, if you happen to make any sort of income that can be associated with the company, you can actually get your
acid tax free. 
For me, bureaucracy, rules and law are just a set of inverted instructions how to accomplish things, sometimes with conflicting variables.
While being pessimistic, we must make note that stuff has gotten much more available due to spread of market economy, international trade, increases
in standard of living and the depth of economy. Although you could have just went to a shop and bought something OTC in the 80's and now it's banned,
chances are you can source it by unconventional means, because the total amount of that asset has increased in the world, you have access to
universal, instant platform of information transfer protocol and there is someone, somewhere, who is willing to get it to you. Perhaps you don't even
need that original article anymore, because you have learned how to get around it because of all the available information and international
communities. Also, technological and societal developments can quickly change things, for example cryptocurrencies have revolutionized transfer of
value in certain contexts.
[Edited on 16-9-2021 by Fyndium]
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