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BJ68
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Topic: battery acid....
There is not only one issue involved with that topic....at least in Germany...or of you visit Germany by car...
Reason for that according to the local law in Germany what will be in force from first of February there is no possibility to get a permit for using
the higher concentrations which are possible according to the EU-regulation, that means concentration of more than 15% is illegal to use, to own or to
import.
Here the German law: https://www.buzer.de/AusgStG.htm
In §10 there is the phrase that you can not get permits and in §13 there is the phrase "bereitstellt, verbringt, besitzt oder verwendet" which
translated in "provides, spends, owns or uses".
§2 Definitions of this law relegates to "Article 3 Definitions" of "Regulation (EU) 2019/1148" where you can find this phrases:
[...]
(5)‘introduction’ means the act of bringing a substance into the territory of a Member State, irrespective of its destination within the Union,
whether from another Member State or from a third country, under any customs procedure, as defined in Regulation (EU) No 952/2013 of the European
Parliament and of the Council (10) including transit;
(6) ‘use’ means use as defined in point (24) of Article 3 of Regulation (EC) No 1907/2006;
[...]
Point (24) of Article 3 of Regulation (EC) No 1907/2006 reads as:
[...]24. use: means any processing, formulation, consumption, storage, keeping, treatment, filling into containers, transfer from one container to
another, mixing, production of an article or any other utilisation;
[...]
and using sulfuric acid even in a closed car battery is "utilisation" for me....
There is neither no minimum amount in the German law nor in the EU-regulation and there are no exceptions made, that means that the smallest volume is
illegal....and even for other local country laws with permits there is the problem, that you as car owner do not have a permit for using sulfuric acid
with more than 15%. Car batteries are using a higher concentration and if you charge them the concentration gets even higher....so you as car owner
are a producer of sulfuric acid with higher concentration as 15% and without permit for that.
bj68
Edit: That is the problem if bureaucrats with no chemical background are making laws which regulate chemicals....
[Edited on 17-1-2021 by BJ68]
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Fyndium
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I've thought about this matter since it was introduced. The battery acid has generally around 37% acid, which fits with the 40% license limit, but the
fact is that it is somewhat accessible to general public through batteries. It is likely that one could obtain a series of batteries and "refill" them
every once a while to get stockpile of acid.
On the other hand, they probably acknowledge themselves that this restriction is most effective at preventing crime of passion, where one rushes to
store to buy a bottle of acid to throw it onto someone. The people who are willing to go to lengths are merely slowed a little.
On the other hand, the company effect can actually work against it. People buying one 1L bottle for 50€ can look more suspicious than a business
buying a 25L canister for 200€ or a full barrel for 500€, and even if not, the incentive to buy the canister is very high because it gets you 25
times more stuff for 4 times the price, or in a barrel, 200 times for 10 times the price.
My friend at drag racing told their team bought four barrels of nitromethane due to a cheap price, this was total of 800 liters. As a fuel, not that
much, but definitely can cause some major worry if it were to end up in malicious hands.
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NaK
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A system for permitting higher concentrations than the limit is explicitly ruled out in Germany.
Possessing one of these restricted compounds as a private person even without intention to make explosives is a criminal offense punishable up to 3
years of prison or fine. The attempt is punishable too, so you're commiting a crime if you even try to concentrate it or buy it.
These people are insane
[Edited on 17-1-2021 by NaK]
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BJ68
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I have learned PTA (pharmaceutic-technical-assistant) so I have the "Sachkunde" according to the German chemistry laws and in February I will renew it
in a one day course (for 650 Euro), because they changed the law that you have this license renewed every six years, this will be the step one on the
way to secure my chemical supply chain.
I am working now at a university @ Switzerland full time.....and was thinking to rent a room for making a photographic laboratory.....here.
Last week I phoned with a friend of mine @ my hometown in Bavaria who has a bicycle-repair shop (own little company). There is a flat which I can
rent, two rooms, bath and small kitchen, around 50 to 60 square meters. So I will found my own little business for making my photographic things see
the thread in https://illumina-chemie.de/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=4590 because here in CH in my bathroom the size of the room is to small e.g. I tried here
Kirlian photography with this Tesla coil https://illumina-chemie.de/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=4821&... and I can count on my five fingers until I get a electric shock. So I need
place.....I want to formulate developers, photographic kits and one big issue will be replacement of potassium dichromate in gum printing what I tried
before the sunset date of that compound in the EU see https://illumina-chemie.de/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=4096&... even there is a nice way to decontaminate the Cr(VI) to Cr(III) with ascorbic acid
https://illumina-chemie.de/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=4201&...
I looked up the cost of authorization for this purposes and with no guarantee for the outcome you have to invest about 10000 to 15000 Euro for
lawyers, dossiers, tests and fees to file a application for that.
There are ways to replace potassium and ammonium dichromate but there is much experimentation needed see https://www.alternativephotography.com/gum-diazo-printing-v1... what will be one topic for me.....
There are much more other ideas in my head...but they are stuck, because as private citizen you will be more and more cut from the chemical supply
chain....but for me there is one advantage...I will keep my job in Switzerland and make the thing in my holidays or if this will run (and generate
income) I can reduce here to 75% and put more effort in it. The nice thing is I am not forced to generate income with this idea.....my health
insurance and so on will be paid from my "normal" job.....and even if I have hard times it´s no problem for me...
bj68
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Fyndium
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Quote: Originally posted by NaK  | Possessing one of these restricted compounds as a private person even without intention to make explosives is a criminal offense punishable up to 3
years of prison or fine. The attempt is punishable too, so you're commiting a crime if you even try to concentrate it or buy it.
These people are insane |
I knew Germany is a silly country. Here the maximum sanction for illegal precursors is a fine.
Generally though, at least in my country, very many sanctions include from fine to 2 years in prison, but most of the offenses, unless they are very
severe in their class, are acquitted with a small fine, and the prison term always comes as a conditional, meaning if you don't do crimes that require
a mandatory prison time, you will never serve any time. The precedents are also very strict, so if one case has served fine, all other cases must be
served the same.
In some US states you get mandatory life sentences for not flushing the toilet thrice by causing common distress.
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NaK
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It is the same penalty range you would get for possessing explosives in germany. And you are right, if you didn't plan to make explosives or kill
people you are likely not going to prison.
If you are dealing with a bad judge or have a bad attorney or just bad luck you can still get a prison sentence on probation, and even worse
"Possession of explosive precursors" on your record for owning a bit of sulfuric acid.
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nimgoldman
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As for the sulfuric, what about Cleamen 420 ? That is basically 96-98% H2SO4. Will the company stop selling the drain cleaner? Or
will it be restricted to professional cleaning services only?
I agree these laws are insane. They seem to be made by politicians, not actual experts, having only terrorism and drug manufacture in mind, completely
forgetting about normal people (the 99.9%) like metal refiners, amateur chemists, plant extractors etc. etc.
From all the possible solutions, a general ban/regulation is usually the worst one. It does not solve anything, only creates more obstacles for normal
people.
Some possible workarounds (?):
substitute (H2SO4 from drain cleaner / car battery, nitrates from fertilizers ...)
find a sane chem supplier (ordering just a little bit of this and that may not be an issue in most cases)
set up a legal business (additional permits may be required)
order the item from outside EU (customs may not allow it)
order the item through someone else's business (this may put him in trouble though...)
move outside EU (...)
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Fyndium
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By the law they shouldn't be supplied to public, and they shouldn't be stored so they are accessible to people not supposed to handle them by their
occupation.
Actual outcome? Some companies will unknowingly supply products even not knowing they contain stuff that is restricted now, and in the future. An
enterpreneur is not same as a professional, and as ordinary people that are scared of dihydrogen monoxide establish startups, they aren't likely to
figure out all the details, and may accidentally sell whatever suits their business.
Then there are suppliers who will supply stuff if you pay. No questions asked, just pay a little premium. Then there are friends and friends of
friends, who can help you get stuff. The list goes on. If it's not considered morally or ethically bad or is not sanctioned very severely, and if
there is an economical incentive, people tend to not follow the law by every letter, if they feel convenient doing otherwise.
Easiest way is to set up a business. In most countries it requires only filling a form, can nowadays be done online and in some instances can even be
free. For that, you can do your chemistry, metal refining, anodizing, hair/textile bleaching, cleaning, extracting and open your drains.
Anyway, experience has shown that pretty much anything can be figured out, if one is willing to put enough effort and time for it.
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nimgoldman
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The problem is you have to provide reason for why you need that certain chemical for your business.
Then you have either make up sh** or just pretend you are producing something that necessarily requires that chemical.
The bigger problem though is that we are already en route to banning basic lab equipment, like flasks and beakers.
* rant alert *
This philosophy is extremely toxic because it tramples on personal freedom: Doing what you like as long as you don't hurt anyone else 's rights in the
process.
They are pre-punishing you for what you *could* do even though you have no such intents and that goes againts the idea of the law in the first place.
They are just stacking more and more exceptions to our every right (incl. basic human rights) until there is really no freedom left, no air the
breathe in an atmosphere of fear, where everyone is a suspect and no one knows what's still legal, promoting self-censorship of our speech and
behavior.
They try to control free market in the name of security, though no one really back-checks whether the laws actually work (they don't), so they keep
adding new laws to solve issues created by the old laws.
BTW a terrorist can still easily obtain e.g. hexamine, hell just mix formaldehyde and ammonia! Want acetone? Just order canysters from China to some
non-EU country and smuggle that into eurozone. If someone is really dedicated to blow a house, these laws are toothless. But they really REALLY harm
amateurs and people who need to experiment before starting a small business.
This is even more hurting since Europe benefits from chemists who started as "amateurs" doing lots of free experimentation - think of all the great
German, French, Polish etc. chemists. They couldn't even start doing the great science with today's restrictions.
Today everything is getting institutionalised, requiring some kind of "license", "registration" or "title".
It's like Europe completely forgot the very values it stands on.
Science is for all people, regardless of gender, race, nation, religion etc. I believe EU's restrictions are crime against our very nature, treating
wide public as just a mass of consumers or what.
Don't get me wrong, I already have a registered business, but I also already been asked for hearing by bureaucrats and visited by customs officers -
they get me to sign a paper that they can check on me any time in the future just because purchasing a single piece of glassware as an individual -
and now I feel like I lost a huge bit of freedom ... and that sucks to say the least.
[Edited on 16-2-2021 by nimgoldman]
[Edited on 16-2-2021 by nimgoldman]
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Fyndium
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| Quote: Originally posted by nimgoldman | The problem is you have to provide reason for why you need that certain chemical for your business.
Then you have either make up sh** or just pretend you are producing something that necessarily requires that chemical. |
Prove, to who? They don't ask anything, just provide a business number and they likely check that it's listed in the database and you're good to go.
Some specific countries, like Germany, who like to make rules for the fun of it, can have some weird trade chamber stuff going on, but haven't heard
it elsewhere. But, if someone happens to ask, you can just state anything that it's used for. Proving is mostly for individuals anyway.
Lab equipment is not so much needed in illegal operations as chemicals are. A quick look on any busted lab pics shows that the biggest suppliers for
cookery equipment are pyrex, mason jar inc and tefal, not forgetting the most common reaction vessel, the notorious 10-liter polyethene bucket. Flasks
are nice to have, but not necessary for doing bad stuff. Many countries and states have banned them already though, so the nonsense have been out
there for decades. Look for australia and texas, as examples. Speaking of australia, there was this one guy who ordered custom made stainless steel
equipment and cooked x in scale that made breaking bad look like beginner's bakery. Vacuum distillation can easily be done in all-ss equipment, and
with bit of lessons from brewing and distilling guys, you can incorporate a lot of glass to see what's going on, and welding with a tig welder is
actually very easy, I got it right after an hour, and been since welding a lot. Ok, so now we need to ban brewing, tig welders and stainless steel.
Don't forget vacuum pumps, they're the gateway to chemical crime. Damn, but they can still turn out an aspirator pump from brass stock. Ban lathes and
mills, too!
I would never give an open warrant for anyone to come look for anything.
Ordering acetone from china is a bit exaggerated as it's been always one of the most accessible solvent and the very reason it wasn't the one that got
banned instead of the two other reagents concerning it's feared abuse. On the other hand, the guys who cook big time, order their stuff already from
China in shipping containers. See you in Holland or Mexico.
Restrictions primarily hit on idiots and (idiot) terrorists. Those bastards who throw acid, and all kind of low-level terrorists. Just recently people
got busted for ordering stuff that was obviously suspicious. I don't know, but as a more initiated chemist it sometimes appear that many restrictions
are worthless because you can easily make this from that and so on, and here we go, around the bans, but it appears that the scum who misuse these
seem to always go the easy way, and if you get it off the shelves, they stop doing these.
Perhaps the mastermind criminals quickly figure out that instead of blowing something up they can make a lot of money by utilizing their skill in some
other area.
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clearly_not_atara
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The acid throwing is terrible, but it's kind of hard for me to figure how you're going to prevent people from being able to find some kind of
corrosive liquid they can throw on people. I mean, bleach still exists. Ditto hair dye. And if you're willing to mix stuff in a jar (workups are the
hard part, after all) you can get pretty close to aqua regia from pool acid (usually HCl) and fertilizer.
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Fyndium
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There are lots of stuff that would prove very nasty when got onto skin, but I find it surprising how big of a brake a simple googling is to most
people. The saying "don't advertise it so the idiots won't try it" keeps it's place.
Like stated, if you just can't buy something ready from the closest convenience store, it will keep 98% of people away from it.
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nimgoldman
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In my country, businesses were already closed for they were selling growing supplies that *could* be used to grow marijuana. Not joking!
In my country, just hte fact you have all supplies you *could* use to make something illegal is already assumed an illegal activity.
They don't close professional labs, no, but anyone just looking suspicious is already at danger of prosecution and his properties being seized by the
state.
I could be pessimistic, but even though I am not doing anything bad, but over the years doing amateur chem, I am at constant fear of authorities and
it already takes a toll on my health 
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Fyndium
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Same here, but once it hits the prosecutor's table, the stuff is returned at once. Got experience on that. In court at least they will have to prove
factual evidence that the stuff is intended for illegitimate acts. The police tends to hit some general charge of causing danger to the public in
order to create a warrant, and they seize - depending if they consult a professional or not - everything or the interesting stuff. Merely possessing a
selection of reagents that could be mixed to make something illegal does not prove intent, but if the circumstantial evidence stronly suggests - by
the court's consideration - that there is an illegitimate intent behind them, the charge may fly. A guy was found with large variety of stuff and cut
blanks and caps for pipe bombs and some nitrates and stuff, so the intent was shown, but for mere nitrate possession it will not.
There was a case where an mdma precursor ester, which was not on any list, was designated as solely suitable and useful for drug manufacture and had
no other recorded legal uses whatsoever, and hence the basis for intent was shown. Other cases generally just include notes, plans or other
documentation of intent, coupled with materials suitable, so the charging is much more easier. Some consider it along the lines that "a lab equipment
or chemical that ordinary citizen does not usually possess, is a good indication of intent to manufacture illegal substances", which is more than
ridiculous, because it basically states that any hobby that is unordinary, is a potential crime.
I'm not personally too fearful of the legal outcome, I'm much more worried if the chain reaction starts when someone suspects or sees something, and
suddenly there are the full strength of my local PD, fire dept and em'cy personnel on my property carrying out everything and anything they deem
suspicious. Later, it will be cleared, unless they have destroyed part of the stuff testing out if it's explosive or psychotropic, but the impact it
would have on my neighbors, landlord, locals, etc is not cleared with paper that states "no crime committed, investigation ends". Also, the sentences
in my country are so lame that unless I'd be making actual real hard drugs, I'll likely get away with little fine, even for the more grave mishaps,
like illegal precursors or lack of safety. It really takes some effort to end up in actual prison here. Not that I do, what I mean is I primarily do
things based on what's safe, what I like to do, and then look how the law adapts to it. For example distilling ethanol is illegal without license that
can only be obtained by an industrial plant, hence only way to distill ethanol is.. to just stfu and do it.
There was also a cannabis case when they tried to make a prejudicate to make selling cannabis growing equipment illegal as a drug offense, but the
massive trial was dropped at the first hearing when the judge just told the prosecutor to gtfo, and the appeals signed on that. So, selling growing
equipment remained legal by court's mandate, but little did it help to those small businesses that were already raided and shut down. Instead of
getting real people on court, they should first make a pre-trial evaluation whether something can be really charged, and then start the crusade.
Some countries have civil forfeiture which can be used to seize all crime related property to the state if certain circumstances are met. Drive a car
while possessing pot - car confiscated. Do something illegal in property - property confiscated. Living in such a place kinda sucks. Some european
countries also have an anti money laundering acts which give a very vague charge that funds can be seized if they are likely originated from criminal
activity, and no sentence is required in order to fulfill seizure. Kind of, a person earns legal money and savings and sells something illegal, he can
get his whole property seized unless he can explicitly prove they are from legal origins.
[Edited on 17-2-2021 by Fyndium]
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Xanax
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Whats next to ban, acetone, sodium hydroxide?
Terrorists will still get the chemicals they need, even if its banned. They buy anyway stolen high explosives from the military or the
construction/mining industry. They just destroy for us chemistry-interested geeks, who will do even more dangerous experiments to get exotic
chemicals! I dont even think you can buy "The little chemistry box" anymore...
I wish it was the 60-ies...
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Fyndium
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They are already banned in many countries. Canada introduced an act that classifies acetone as registered chemical, with exception of small sales of
few liters at a sale max. I have never seen it sold in larger than 1L bottles anyway. I wonder how many barrels the bad guys need to make the dreaded
thing they are so afraid of, when 99% of the cases have involved amounts in two digit gram scale. It sounds more like "let's ban something because a
new 5-year plan is ahead" - kind of stuff.
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